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On June 26 2011 07:39 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:37 vrok wrote:On June 26 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote:
If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments. I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation. If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better. The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not. Yeah, I'm just pointing out it blows for foreign players in that regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll get flack, if they win their opponent had lag and bad time so they had a huge advantage and if they lose then they suck in comparison, they can't really come out looking good.
Could just swap between servers between each game in a BoX like how the Chinese Star Wars tournament did it.
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Hey guys I cant compete, lets ban them! /sigh
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I find all this talk of nationality as racial basis to exclude koreans because they have a stronger work ethic slightly ridiculous to say the least.
This isn't something a Korean, American, German, Italian or any nationalistic version of ones race is born with. You don't get removed from the womb with a Blizzard magazine in your hand, it is all about the fact that the Korean scene harbours a much stronger work ethic, to close that out is to say something along the lines of:
"In this sport, you work hardest, you can't compete, sorry"
It's absurdity, and anyone who condones that message should be removed from a discussion on E-Sports.
I personally love the "korean against the world" maybe when we start gaming 14hours a day, and relaly focusing then we can say there is an imbalance in racial aptitude towards SC2.
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On June 26 2011 07:33 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
Ok, you're actually right. The main context and meaning with the poll question is correct - but I should have deleted the "IPL style" - would have been a bit better.
The description in the OP about the different tournaments are correct though but sadly I don't know how to change poll descriptions :/.
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In football (not handegg), there has been a lot of debate in UEFA and the FA about introducing a rule where the number of foreign players in a domestic league team is restricted. This issue has raised a huge amount of debate involving the fans, the clubs, the players and everyone who is important in FIFA and UEFA.
So this is not a unique issue to Starcraft, but the matter is made more extreme by the fact that online play allows anyone to play, anywhere, without further commitment.
I think it is fine to allow unrestricted online play, and I think it is fine to force restricted online play. Every tournament organiser must therefore question his true object and purpose in establishing the tournament. I think we will see many new exclusive or protectionist tournaments in the future, aimed at fostering the domestic scene. However, the biggest and most prestigious tournaments will undoubtedly be the unrestricted online tournaments, and that should provide enough incentive for everyone involved to improve.
What I expect to see in the future:
- Unrestricted online tournaments: e.g. NASL Open Tournament, and even invitationals like the FXO Invitational series
- Restricted online tournaments: e.g. IPL and some smaller, local tournaments; will generally have less prize money
- Unrestricted "offline" (damn Blizzard!) tournaments: e.g. GSL, and I would expect to see more extended offline tournaments in Europe, perhaps based in Sweden or Germany, in the future; less Koreans will be at these, and even if they did come, they are away from their support base and will be "brought down" to the tournament level
- Unrestricted "offline" spectacles: e.g. Dreamhack, IEM, MLG; I would expect at least 5-10 Koreans to come every event; however, more Koreans = less chance to pay off their investment in coming
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I don't mind Koreans being invited (nor am I racist for that matter), thing is:
If koreans keep owning up the place, every, single, tournament. (4/5 koreans end up in the top 5), it's hardly satisfying to watch it.
It'll kill 'E-sports in the west' as people tend to lose interest if the outcome:
a) is very much predictable
b) no people you can relate to seem to be able to win(People from the same country/place/environment/etc)
And sure: The only people to blame are the non-korean pro-gamers who don't 'train hard enough', or don't have the same type of training that is required to keep up with the koreans.
It doesn't change the fact that SC2 will have the same destiny as BW: it being only populair in Korea and nowhere else, because no-one else can keep up.
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high latency isn't enough as a handicap?
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On June 26 2011 07:38 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:33 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional. It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea.
And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty.
They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here.
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global ofc, promotes competition and is more interesting with more nationalities 
SLAYERS FIGHTING
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What does "watching the best" have to do with the NASL? If you look at the region distribution of the players that were eliminated and which qualified, they heavily favored the north american scene over both the european and the korean one. Not that I blame them, but "watching the best" is something else.
edit: oh you mean the system in general, nvm.
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On June 26 2011 07:44 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:38 Kraznaya wrote:On June 26 2011 07:33 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional. It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this. What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea. And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty. They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here.
Yes, This is how I feel.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
Koreans dominating in these tournaments could potentially damage the foreign SC2 scene. It sounds kinda cute to the viewers because they want to see the best players, but you'll end up strangling emerging foreign talent before they get a chance.
Playing well in online tournaments raises the reputation of the little guys and potentially can get them a team contact. Its actually more likely you'd get foreign teams signing up koreans instead of foreigners if we see many taking part online, and its already starting to happen.
What people are expecting is a bunch of foreign outliers to raise their game once korean competition comes. Not gonna happen. The koreans benefit from a stronger ladder, team houses & coaches. You need a thriving foreign scene before you can get team houses & coaches, only after that will you see koreans beaten regularly.
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Yes i want to see koreans, what i want to see even more is others beating koreans.
So i'm all for koreans participating in online/foreign tournaments and hopefully it will be an incentive for foreigners to take their practice more seriously etc. So they all together raise sc2 to a higher level.
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On June 26 2011 07:41 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:39 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:37 vrok wrote:On June 26 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote:
If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments. I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation. If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better. The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not. Yeah, I'm just pointing out it blows for foreign players in that regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll get flack, if they win their opponent had lag and bad time so they had a huge advantage and if they lose then they suck in comparison, they can't really come out looking good. Could just swap between servers between each game in a BoX like how the Chinese Star Wars tournament did it.
Yeah, the TSL did that too, but people still cried lag for Korean losses and while I'm inclined to agree that lag played a huge issue, it's still unfortunate for the players to not get credit when they win. Either way, I'm ultimately fine with it, if the players can compete they shouldn't let comments get to them.
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On June 26 2011 07:44 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:38 Kraznaya wrote:On June 26 2011 07:33 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional. It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this. What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea. And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty. They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here.
Again, what's the logistical issue on part of the tournament host? You can log on to the NA server even if you aren't in NA. Being on battle.net means you are physically able to play. What else do you need?
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its asian invasion lol. Why not? let them participate!
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On June 26 2011 07:43 tyCe wrote:
In football (not handegg), there has been a lot of debate in UEFA and the FA about introducing a rule where the number of foreign players in a domestic league team is restricted. This issue has raised a huge amount of debate involving the fans, the clubs, the players and everyone who is important in FIFA and UEFA.
So this is not a unique issue to Starcraft, but the matter is made more extreme by the fact that online play allows anyone to play, anywhere, without further commitment.
Hold your horses there, this has nothing to do with race or anything, but with money.
Premier League(And some outside of England, sure) clubs have way more money than other divisions in Europe. And they keep buying out every talent there is with promises of insane salaries and good conditions. Other countries-premier-divisions would have a way higher level if it wasn't for that (The Dutch, Spanish for example) and the ones who are on top now would not be as dominating as they are now.
This issue in Starcraft doesn't nearly have the problems that the soccer(hate this word) world has. The problem in the football world is easily solvable by the suggested solution(with the heavy debates). The issue in Starcraft is harder to solve, as it is primarily a work ethic issue.
Totally not compareable.
(I don't want to go too off topic about this though, just wanted to make this clear).
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On June 26 2011 07:48 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:44 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:38 Kraznaya wrote:On June 26 2011 07:33 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional. It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this. What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea. And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty. They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here. Again, what's the logistical issue on part of the tournament host? You can log on to the NA server even if you aren't in NA. Being on battle.net means you are physically able to play. What else do you need?
You realize playing isn't all that's involved with the tournament, have you seen what IGN is trying to do with IPL TV, with the prize stuff, with player interaction, there's also obvious issues with lag that would have to be accommodated, for fairness they'd have to switch servers between games which could hurt the quality of the games and be an unnecessary hassle. Regardless of whether or not these issues are worthing the regional lock, claiming that they're discriminating is really dumb, they're purely region locking, if SeleCT was living in Cambodia, he wouldn't be allowed to compete and it'd have nothing to do with him being Korean.
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On June 26 2011 07:47 AnalThermometer wrote:
Koreans dominating in these tournaments could potentially damage the foreign SC2 scene. It sounds kinda cute to the viewers because they want to see the best players, but you'll end up strangling emerging foreign talent before they get a chance.
Playing well in online tournaments raises the reputation of the little guys and potentially can get them a team contact. Its actually more likely you'd get foreign teams signing up koreans instead of foreigners if we see many taking part online, and its already starting to happen.
What people are expecting is a bunch of foreign outliers to raise their game once korean competition comes. Not gonna happen. The koreans benefit from a stronger ladder, team houses & coaches. You need a thriving foreign scene before you can get team houses & coaches, only after that will you see koreans beaten regularly.
Then the team managers need to start looking for people who placed the highest after the Koreans.
From them, I expect at least this much common sense.
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On June 26 2011 07:25 GuTTuRaLPanda wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Is that the Puma that beat Nal_ra at the end of his TV-show?
Yes! Just checked the liquipedia. I shall forever hate him now. : D
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EPT
