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On June 04 2011 03:23 julianto wrote:
Do switch to zerg. There is the unforgiving larva inject mechanism and the constant dilemma to drone or make army units, which tosses don't have to deal with. Switch and see how easy it is. As for me, whenever I get random protoss, all I have to do is turtle for 90% of the game and then a-move. Scouting - optional for protoss, necessary for zerg (or else you'll overdrone, underdrone, or make the wrong counters).
It just takes half as much effort into the game whenever I roll terran or toss.
If something is harder to execute doesn't really have to do something with balance of the races. It's important that it is balnced, if you do everything you have to with that race.
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protoss still wins 66% against zerg you retards. protoss is just a flawed race where the best zerg can't do anything but the protoss can't win against terran because protoss is so easy they can't find a way to improve their play. if anything blizzard needs to remove the race from the game because P matchups are always boring, so much so that T can only go MMM and Z can only make roaches, unless it's some cutesy timing push or coinflip strat
User was warned for this post
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On June 04 2011 03:33 Ancient.sc wrote:
It's just a phase of the game development.
Protoss used to dominate, then Zerg figured out new things, now Zerg dominates, then Protoss will figure out new things and will dominate again and so on.
Until the game will be completely figured out, there will be shifts like this were races have higher win percentages over some short periods of time.
Toss never dominated like zerg is, at least statistically, in Korea.
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On June 04 2011 03:23 julianto wrote:
Do switch to zerg. There is the unforgiving larva inject mechanism and the constant dilemma to drone or make army units, which tosses don't have to deal with. Switch and see how easy it is. As for me, whenever I get random protoss, all I have to do is turtle for 90% of the game and then a-move. Scouting - optional for protoss, necessary for zerg (or else you'll overdrone, underdrone, or make the wrong counters).
It just takes half as much effort into the game whenever I roll terran or toss.
Zergliquid is hilarious.
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On June 04 2011 03:36 elitesniper420 wrote:
protoss still wins 66% against zerg you retards. protoss is just a flawed race where the best zerg can't do anything but the protoss can't win against terran because protoss is so easy they can't find a way to improve their play. if anything blizzard needs to remove the race from the game because P matchups are always boring, so much so that T can only go MMM and Z can only make roaches, unless it's some cutesy timing push or coinflip strat
You heard it here first folks, remove Protoss, why aren't you working for blizzard with your ingenious solutions?
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On June 04 2011 03:36 elitesniper420 wrote:
protoss still wins 66% against zerg you retards. protoss is just a flawed race where the best zerg can't do anything but the protoss can't win against terran because protoss is so easy they can't find a way to improve their play. if anything blizzard needs to remove the race from the game because P matchups are always boring, so much so that T can only go MMM and Z can only make roaches, unless it's some cutesy timing push or coinflip strat
elit3snip4 - 420
poopfeast420
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On June 04 2011 03:35 Let it Raine wrote:
protoss players are really really bad as far as I can tell. resorting to all ins/gimmicky plays and even going so far as to do the same strat 3 times in one bo7 series. (inca)
protoss needs a hero. A safe, macro oriented and reactionary, hero.
White Ra.
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Protoss is indeed looking like they're going through some trouble again. Though I think it's more a metagame thing. You guys will find the way soon. Zerg is not underpowered..don't listen to those whiners. Terran seems to be doing the best in Korea overall. Seems like koreans really know how to play that race to it's max potential
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On June 04 2011 03:28 Atila wrote:its NOT imbalance its a result of people figuring out how to deal with protoss and many protoss are doing well its silly to bring up MC because + Show Spoiler +You obviously don't watch GSL THAT OFTEN because you only mentioned HuK, MC, and Trickster, which are only a few and generally they perform mediocre in tournaments (yes this extends to MC, lately he hasn't been getting results, but I do acknowledge he's done very well in the past) To conclude, yes it's a change in results, yes its good. Race distribution is about even now, showing that this game has matured beyond "imbalance"
+ Show Spoiler +Well both MC and Trickster are out... As I said, I'm putting my hopes in HuK and Alicia (in that order). Trickster's play style was far from good... And sadly MC got beat by Alicia in the PVP match up. HuK beat San, in yet another PvP... It's also lot of bad luck with the match making.
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I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread, some the comments would only make sense 6 months ago. With the buffs to zerg and nerfs to toss along with lingering undressed issues, protoss is not what it once was. I personally think that the nerfs designed to "fix" pvp, put protoss over the tipping point and have hurt toss greatly in every matchup. A 4 gate rush in pvp is still hard to stop if you don't have 4 gates, but in the other matchups I don't think it's that people can't win by 4 gating but that the threat isn't there. I loved 4 gating zergs, but it was razor thin whether or not it held and game deciding. With that threat being 20 seconds later, it is 2x easier for zerg to hold. Also, that 20 seconds also means that when a protoss 3gate expands against zerg they only have 3 or 4 units and warp isn't done when they want to put down the nexus. Just setting back every potential warp in 20 seconds has opened the door for zergs to deny the natural. Meanwhile zerg can expand at 15 food and toss can't do anything but try to force a few units early instead of drones.
Another issue for protoss in every matchup is that protoss is very reliant on FF's and Colossus. When zergs deal with FF's by doing bane drops or roach burrow, it looks like most protoss's (at least that I've seen) don't have any answer. Terrans are getting emp earlier and 1 good emp is GG, people say "spread out your units" but there are situations where you can't do that, like when defending a ramp or pretty much anytime you engage a bio ball early to mid game, if your army spreads out, it will get stim-a moved and evaporate. Colossus are getting hard countered by vikings, corruptors, and neural parasite. When a zerg fungals the death ball, there is nothing protoss can do but watch, it stops your air, your blink, pulling your colossus back.
Also, the cost to get blink and charge are absurd if you compare them to any other upgrades for zerg or terrans early units. For example the cost to get twilight and charge is the same as a terran getting a tech lab + stim + combat shield + concussive. The stalker is a huge issue too, toss has to use them, but their long cooldown combined with only getting +1 per upgrade means that the more upgrades terran or zerg gets the worse stalkers scale against them. When you realize that 1 stalker has a slightly lower dps than a single UNstimmed marine, and that they can afford almost 4 marines for the cost of 1 stalker, or that roaches can me made almost 2 to 1 for cost and scale better with upgrades it makes it clear that stalkers are terrible for their cost. Colossus have become a liability for protoss in many ways as well because of the continuing trend towards macro heavy play and macro maps. Colossus slow down the protoss army, and they must be protected, and for you opponent they are always expected. It gets very difficult to defend your bases after the 3rd because protoss can't just throw units away and it's very hard to split your army and deal with threats at multiple locations cost effectively.
Then there are issues with unit counters, hydras are excellent against zealots and stalkers, but they also rape immortals and voids. MM does great against zealots and stalkers, but marines also rape voids and immortals. But toss needs obs so the only safe and logical option is colossus.
As it is, protoss has to back its self into a corner or choke and use FF and Colossus so the range of its units can make its dps higher than the front line their opponents, but it has slowly been figured out how to deal with FF's and Colossus. The protoss army gets crushed $ for $ to almost anything without FF, and colossus.
I have little hope that any of this will be corrected until HOTS. I think there are core design issues with protoss that require the addition of units and abilities, or the removal of some from other races for the issue to be worked out.
FF are absolutely at the base of all the problems, they are too strong in some situations. But once the opponent has a tech to make them ineffective toss is really handicapped. I think the same is true for colossus.
BTW this whole argument that all the toss players are just not as good as the other races players is complete bullshit. It's just like how Terran has had better tourney results than toss and zerg combined and had 40-50% of the top 200 throughout Sc2's history and people say "well that just means that better players choose terran" If you honestly believe it works like that, your logic is so flawed it makes 99% of what you say worth ignoring.
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On June 04 2011 03:39 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 03:33 Ancient.sc wrote:
It's just a phase of the game development.
Protoss used to dominate, then Zerg figured out new things, now Zerg dominates, then Protoss will figure out new things and will dominate again and so on.
Until the game will be completely figured out, there will be shifts like this were races have higher win percentages over some short periods of time. Toss never dominated like zerg is, at least statistically, in Korea.
I'd like to see those "statistics".
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protoss still wins 66% against zerg you retards. protoss is just a flawed race where the best zerg can't do anything but the protoss can't win against terran because protoss is so easy they can't find a way to improve their play. if anything blizzard needs to remove the race from the game because P matchups are always boring, so much so that T can only go MMM and Z can only make roaches, unless it's some cutesy timing push or coinflip stratLast edit: 2011-06-04 03:37:10
No they don't. There are no statistics that support the argument that at this point in the game Protoss is winning 2 out of 3 matches against Zerg. And your understanding of the diversity of P matchups is laughable. Any Terran who neglects Ghosts and Vikings will lose these days, end there are lots of builds that mix in some mech units to favorable results. Infestors and Corruptors are de rigueur in ZvP, and banelings are showing up more and more, and even the Roach-heaviest strats do eventually mix in some Hydras.
Protoss is not UP. Nor are they a "flawed" race with some sort of rock-paper-scissors dynamic with Z and T. Protoss is fully capable of beating the other two races, and the other two races are fully capable of beating Protoss, and in each matchup there are a number of viable builds and strats on each side.
Races have their ups and downs, and matchup balance swings on a pendulum. One side comes up with a new build or strat or playstyle that shifts the matchup in their favor for a bit, and then eventually the other side adapts and responds. Patches make things even more unstable as there is a period where players must adjust. Protoss had a while where they couldn't get past the Ro8, then MC won multiple championships, now they had a bad month. None of this means Protoss is OP, or UP, its just the normal ebb and flow of the game.
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I think Protoss needs to mix in Archons, Immortals, and Voidrays into their composition. Colossus is getting too predictable. Zealot, Archons, Immortal, Templar, Stalker. And they need like 10 obs spread around the whole map so they can detect any movements.
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Protoss randomly do badly in one tournament and people start complaining and switching races.
Jesus Christ. It's not even one whole tournament, it's the first freaking round. Seriously, 2 short weeks of Protoss losing.
I don't even understand why this is a thread.
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I don't think I'm qualified to talk about balance... I do think however there are fluctuations in the metagame due to the balance patches. I don't think anything has been drastic enough to claim Protoss UP, so we should give it some time to stabilize.
However, I 100% agree that the whole Protoss OP sentiment was directly correlated with MC's rise. Apart from him, I think Alicia is great but overhyped, very similar to Losira in a sense. (Lost 7 of his last 10, huge weakness vs Terran).
It's going to be interesting at MLG to see if there is a new metagame twist to Protoss play.
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I don't understand how you can make such a thread which is only based on a single tournament and then not even know which protoss is in or out. That means you don't even know how it happened. Also, choosing a race to play by looking at how they do in tournaments does not seem to be a clever way. Either play the race you like the most or the one you are best with and if you are lucky it is the same.
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On June 04 2011 03:33 Ancient.sc wrote:
It's just a phase of the game development.
Protoss used to dominate, then Zerg figured out new things, now Zerg dominates, then Protoss will figure out new things and will dominate again and so on.
Until the game will be completely figured out, there will be shifts like this were races have higher win percentages over some short periods of time.
Actually Protoss never dominated anything except for Idra.
I don't think any statistic showed that Protoss ever dominated Zergs the way Zergs are dominating Protoss now.
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I think Mothership Templar would be good against a Terran in Midgame. But then again they can emp and reveal your units with scans... I was thinking it would force them into vikings.
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This wont end well.
One side of the fence we have the IdrA-infuenced zerg crowd, who have been whining about being UP since the game got into beta.
On the other side we have Protoss players who are fed up with being called skilless retards by angry zergs.
And sitting on the fence we have terrans, who are like "whatever we are the hardest race anyways"
Also if you are just to judge of tournament results you could say the game is pretty darned closed to balanced. In fact, as long as there is some players able to win tournamens with every race the game is fine.
I think Mothership Templar would be good against a Terran in Midgame. But then again they can emp and reveal your units with scans... I was thinking it would force them into vikings.
How did you think that was going to work out well?
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its because slayers players dont have many tosses and they own GSL lol
but take a look at ace for example, he did a pretty damn good job even tho fruitdealer played awesome
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EPT
