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On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakest GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow..
Squirtle and Ace are not impressive haha.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow..
You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is...
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On June 04 2011 03:23 julianto wrote:
Do switch to zerg. There is the unforgiving larva inject mechanism and the constant dilemma to drone or make army units, which tosses don't have to deal with. Switch and see how easy it is. As for me, whenever I get random protoss, all I have to do is turtle for 90% of the game and then a-move. Scouting - optional for protoss, necessary for zerg (or else you'll overdrone, underdrone, or make the wrong counters).
It just takes half as much effort into the game whenever I roll terran or toss.
I find it hilarious whenever someone talks about the larva mechanic.
Any decent level player can keep up with injects. Just because larva inject is harder than warping in a bunch of shit, it doesn't mean it's actually difficult to consistently execute. Stop throwing these platinum level arguments in.
As for droning, when to drone and when not to drone, it comes with experience. You'll get punished if you overdrone and underdrone, but you learn next time. Also, there are sooo many benefits to being able to make 10 workers at once compared to making 2 probes at a time. It benefits people with good decision making and punishes the weaker players.
Scouting is required for all races, especially if you want to play on a higher level. Zergs do have an inferior way of scouting, that I agree on, but it is definitely not true that Protoss (or even Terran) don't have to scout.
As for your other argument, since you can win so easily with Protoss, go ladder with Protoss and get to the top of the ladder. All you have to do is turtle 90% of the game and then a-move right? Doesn't seem so hard.
Seriously, I'm so fucking tired of seeing low level zergs complaining about balance. It's getting ridiculous.
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On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is...
Have you not read the GSL threads since around the Ro8 of last GSL? It is consistantly more protoss complaining, especially about terrans. Very few zerg QQers are left.
If you want to see the last holdout, go read the Star Wars thread n___n
THOSE protoss, especially the chinese ones who actuall know how to blink and use FF are ones that are truly scary and impressive, not ones like anypro
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On June 04 2011 04:05 Beyonder wrote:
As someone who plays all three races, but especially protoss and zerg, I feel that protoss is kind of weak at the moment. It might be something we have not figured out yet, but regardless, it is incredibly hard and if the proper timings are abused, protoss has absolutely zero room to breathe and a big chance of losing.
Versus terran there are simply tons of stuff they can do, and you really have no idea which one, so you prepare for multiple. Scouting early is difficult and close to impossible once the marine comes out. Are they going fast ghost marauder marine? Are they doing the annoying tank banshee marine thing? Fast drops? Just marauder marine? Banshees? There are tons of possibilities. And with each build, tons of timings that can be used. The marauder and bunker generally prevents you from harassing, or doing anything that involves skill, unless you take a huge gamble, because there is no way that you can get behind-- then the timing pushes just kill you. You have to wait with taking your extra base till you know Terran takes it on most maps, this counts for your third as well. Its just very very difficult and if you want to play a tad safe, youre forced to play extremely reactive. One mistake and there are no units to get you back in to the game: the protoss units simply do not allow for a lot of skill input. They are kind of straight forward, attack move units, almost wc3esque with our a-click units as heroes (sup colossus).
Versus zerg, early harassment is also almost all-in. Either one base or two base. You get behind, then youre forced to turtle up and there's simply not much more to do than that. Wait till you have a huge army, defend, and move out. Zerg is just incredibly strong at the moment and the only way to deal with it is go (semi) all in with a huge push and pray that the opponent doesnt have the macro, or try to secure bases and move out when youre psy capped.
This is why I wished that I played terran. Its units are so mobile, so versatile, and the harass units mix into the regular army so incredibly well (sup banshee). You can come back from behind (see TvT and TvZ) because your units allow for a lot of skill input. And zergs can actually take expands on big maps agressively. Bleh.
In general, protoss is truly the practice race. It is kind of what zerg was before T_T. You play full reactionary, then every tiny mistake gets punished. You try to (somewhat) dicatate the game? then youre almost all-in.
feeling your pain
played protoss until a week ago high master / gm level.
now i'm trying to switch to terran, because you can actually do something with your skill.
as a protoss you either go all-in with warpgates, or you turtle and try to get your most efficient unit mix.
you don't really have harass units, phoenix / dts are very situational or a heavy tech requirement.
as protoss there isn't really much that can you get back into a game, because the most efficient way to play protoss is to 1a and then show individual unit micro with storm, blink and force field.
against zerg you could at least turtle to 3 bases and then know you have a really efficient army, that's not the case anymore as zerg have figured out how to efficiently use their supply / ressources.
bling are incredible supply efficient, lings are supply efficient harass units.
infestor is the best caster in the game lol.
i don't want to say protoss is weak, but your pretty limited in the stuff you can do with your apm.
it's really difficult as a protoss to set the pace of the game and be in charge of it unless you go
warpgate or other gimmicky all-ins.
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On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow..
Protoss don't whine because protosses are weak in the GSL. We know inca is terrible lol. For me it's more frustration that anything. The only way I can take wins off of good zergs is by doing stupid 2 base all ins or sitting there and doing nothing on 3-4 bases and trying to win the game with 1 push with some oppurtunities for DT harass. Zergs have gotten so solid in the middle game that you literally cannot do any damage unless you are cutting all econ and devoting everything to a timing- an all in, or amassing such an army that you force the zerg to have to reinforce to deal with your maxed army.
It just makes for a very stale game. I'm not sure. Maybe some one will find a style that allows you to do damage without going all in, but I haven't seen it yet.
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Ro64 16 P
Ro32 7
around 55%?are out
R64 29 T
R32 17 P
around 42%?are out
R 19 Z
R 8 Z
around 60%?are out
yeah protoss is soo bad in this tournament
i think blizz ruined the game for toss player
you should switch the game not the race...
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On June 04 2011 04:05 Beyonder wrote:
As someone who plays all three races, but especially protoss and zerg, I feel that protoss is kind of weak at the moment. It might be something we have not figured out yet, but regardless, it is incredibly hard and if the proper timings are abused, protoss has absolutely zero room to breathe and a big chance of losing.
*snip*
The ironic thing is that this is what zerg was complaining about when their representation was through the floor.
I know I'm suggesting something radical here, but is it possible that - rather than one race or another being overpowered or underpowered - that it is the concept of playing for the lategame and being safe against early aggression itself which is underpowered, regardless of what race is doing it?
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On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is...
lemme finish for u, pvt is a fucking joke
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On June 04 2011 02:59 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 02:55 Cthun wrote:On June 04 2011 02:54 TDN wrote:
MC is out Did I miss something? When did that happen? Balance whine in 3-2-1!!! Very constructive post m8, really gives you a lot to think about. It's obvious that threads like this just promote people whining about how underpowered their race is (I play Protoss FWIW). Besides, why would you want to play Zerg because Protoss are doing badly in one tournament? What about the StarsWar where the final 4 players are all Protoss, does that make you want to play Protoss again?
Inferior tournament with inferior players doesn't mean much
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On June 04 2011 03:13 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 03:10 Rasky wrote:
Zerg is now the OP race if you ask me. Recently zergs have been doing very well protoss not so much. Zerg is not OP, and never has or will be. I feel like there just aren't many great korean protoss besides MC and Alicia. Zerg has Nestea, July, Losira, and some great up-and-comers like DRG and Min. And there are just a dickload of terran players, all with great potential (slayers, anyone?) that it makes the rest of the toss seem comparatively lack-luster.
Coudln't we have said that about terran like several months ago when it was pretty much every one who was anyone was a terran player... I mean all bonjwas boxer & nada, highest percentage of old bw pros switching over as terran even rainbow who played protoss switched to terran. MVP was the highest ranking bw player to switch over and all this other stuff.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:19 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:05 Beyonder wrote:
As someone who plays all three races, but especially protoss and zerg, I feel that protoss is kind of weak at the moment. It might be something we have not figured out yet, but regardless, it is incredibly hard and if the proper timings are abused, protoss has absolutely zero room to breathe and a big chance of losing.
Versus terran there are simply tons of stuff they can do, and you really have no idea which one, so you prepare for multiple. Scouting early is difficult and close to impossible once the marine comes out. Are they going fast ghost marauder marine? Are they doing the annoying tank banshee marine thing? Fast drops? Just marauder marine? Banshees? There are tons of possibilities. And with each build, tons of timings that can be used. The marauder and bunker generally prevents you from harassing, or doing anything that involves skill, unless you take a huge gamble, because there is no way that you can get behind-- then the timing pushes just kill you. You have to wait with taking your extra base till you know Terran takes it on most maps, this counts for your third as well. Its just very very difficult and if you want to play a tad safe, youre forced to play extremely reactive. One mistake and there are no units to get you back in to the game: the protoss units simply do not allow for a lot of skill input. They are kind of straight forward, attack move units, almost wc3esque with our a-click units as heroes (sup colossus).
Versus zerg, early harassment is also almost all-in. Either one base or two base. You get behind, then youre forced to turtle up and there's simply not much more to do than that. Wait till you have a huge army, defend, and move out. Zerg is just incredibly strong at the moment and the only way to deal with it is go (semi) all in with a huge push and pray that the opponent doesnt have the macro, or try to secure bases and move out when youre psy capped.
This is why I wished that I played terran. Its units are so mobile, so versatile, and the harass units mix into the regular army so incredibly well (sup banshee). You can come back from behind (see TvT and TvZ) because your units allow for a lot of skill input. And zergs can actually take expands on big maps agressively. Bleh.
In general, protoss is truly the practice race. It is kind of what zerg was before T_T. You play full reactionary, then every tiny mistake gets punished. You try to (somewhat) dicatate the game? then youre almost all-in. feeling your pain played protoss until a week ago high master / gm level. now i'm trying to switch to terran, because you can actually do something with your skill. as a protoss you either go all-in with warpgates, or you turtle and try to get your most efficient unit mix. you don't really have harass units, phoenix / dts are very situational or a heavy tech requirement. as protoss there isn't really much that can you get back into a game, because the most efficient way to play protoss is to 1a and then show individual unit micro with storm, blink and force field. against zerg you could at least turtle to 3 bases and then know you have a really efficient army, that's not the case anymore as zerg have figured out how to efficiently use their supply / ressources. bling are incredible supply efficient, lings are supply efficient harass units. infestor is the best caster in the game lol. i don't want to say protoss is weak, but your pretty limited in the stuff you can do with your apm. it's really difficult as a protoss to set the pace of the game and be in charge of it unless you go warpgate or other gimmicky all-ins.
Yep, well said. Thats why protosses are so damn boring to watch, and thats why players resort to all-ins. Its just all about unit mix in reaction to what your opponent does T_T.
There's really only blink stalkers, but versus terran they are generally not so great as a lot of micro is negated. And then there's force field, that pretty much negates micro from your opponent. There's a vicious cycle of micro destruction: of micro and skill being taken away from the battle. And I feel that protoss suffers most from this, and terran has the lead.
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On June 04 2011 04:22 Irrelevant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 02:59 ZAiNs wrote:On June 04 2011 02:55 Cthun wrote:On June 04 2011 02:54 TDN wrote:
MC is out Did I miss something? When did that happen? Balance whine in 3-2-1!!! Very constructive post m8, really gives you a lot to think about. It's obvious that threads like this just promote people whining about how underpowered their race is (I play Protoss FWIW). Besides, why would you want to play Zerg because Protoss are doing badly in one tournament? What about the StarsWar where the final 4 players are all Protoss, does that make you want to play Protoss again? Inferior tournament with inferior players doesn't mean much
I really hope you're not talking about StarsWar as inferior.
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Every race has good and bad tournaments. There.
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On June 04 2011 04:22 Irrelevant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 02:59 ZAiNs wrote:On June 04 2011 02:55 Cthun wrote:On June 04 2011 02:54 TDN wrote:
MC is out Did I miss something? When did that happen? Balance whine in 3-2-1!!! Very constructive post m8, really gives you a lot to think about. It's obvious that threads like this just promote people whining about how underpowered their race is (I play Protoss FWIW). Besides, why would you want to play Zerg because Protoss are doing badly in one tournament? What about the StarsWar where the final 4 players are all Protoss, does that make you want to play Protoss again? Inferior tournament with inferior players doesn't mean much
mkp clearly an inferior player.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:21 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is... Protoss don't whine because protosses are weak in the GSL. We know inca is terrible lol. For me it's more frustration that anything. The only way I can take wins off of good zergs is by doing stupid 2 base all ins or sitting there and doing nothing on 3-4 bases and trying to win the game with 1 push with some oppurtunities for DT harass. Zergs have gotten so solid in the middle game that you literally cannot do any damage unless you are cutting all econ and devoting everything to a timing- an all in, or amassing such an army that you force the zerg to have to reinforce to deal with your maxed army. It just makes for a very stale game. I'm not sure. Maybe some one will find a style that allows you to do damage without going all in, but I haven't seen it yet.
Funny enough, this is exactly what Idra whined about. You gamble. And in PvZ you either turtle up insanely and defend and try to take a base or you (semi)all-in and pray that the zerg is too bad to counter you. Theres nothing more to it >_>
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There are a # of problems protoss has which makes them weak in certain situations.
1. Protoss units can't retreat.
One of the major advantages of blink stalkers and collosus is that you can retreat with them, but zealots, immortals, void rays and to some extent HT and archons cannot retreat fast enough. if a terran is losing a battle, they can stim and run away. Zerg units are so fast they can just sprint away. Other than stalkers and collosus, once a protoss engages, they must commit or else be willing to lose all of their zealots. This was the problem with archons, but that changed in the patch. Marauders and infestors don't help the situation either.
2. Protoss can reinforce too quickly.
When blizzard did balancing, they needed to consider the effect of reinforcement on the balance. Because protoss can warp in, the units are weaker by a large margin.
3. High dependance on spell casters and high dps units Terran can win games with marines and marauders only. Once terran has stim, protoss needs sentries (for guardian shields and forcefields), collosus (to do dps) or HT, and blink/charge and all high dps units from protoss are easily counterable. (vikings against collosus, ghosts against HT, concussive shells against charge/blink). If protoss wants to win, they need to win every single engagement.
4. No area controlling units. Dark templar can be considered area controlling to a tiny extent, but only lasts a short time. Tanks for terran, banelings and infestors for zerg, protoss literally has nothing. At one time, protoss could hold a position by having a pylon and being able to warp in a high templar with kydarian amulet, but no more. There is no risk advancing into a protoss base. This is the biggest reason why protoss is always in a ball.
5. Highly limited tech choice This somewhat opened up with the recent changes to archon, but most air builds are almost autolosses and warp prism play offers very limited reward with high risks. Obviously protoss hasn't explored EVERY single option, but it's not due to a lack of trying.
6. The cost of scouting is too high. A terran can scout with reapers or scans at almost any moment, a zerg can send an overlord , but a protoss must choose a specific tech pattern and sacrifice tech choices in order to scout. If the protoss gets hallucination, then that's 2 less forcefields and less tech. If the protoss gets an obs, that's 200m/100g followed by 25m/75g. And scouting makes protoss SUPER vulnerable to a fast timing attack. I think protoss need to get that super fast immortal to be safe followed by a chrono'd observer in order to be safe against dt builds, banshee builds, and burrowed roach. My guess is that blizzard designed protoss to always get a fast robo every game (considering all of the units like immortals, observers, and warp prisms), but the truth is that the investment makes it difficult to choose another tech path if you scout something that robo is not good against. Zerg can scout with a lair (a natural part of their tech path) and terran can scout with scans or reapers (a very natural part of the tech path). I still think this is something that can be explored. Maybe hallucination first builds or something would really go a long way to help out. Maybe 1 gate robo is the build of the future, something to be considered. This however I believe is the #1 problem protoss currently has.
I'm not saying protoss is UP, they still win a lot of games and each race has it's own problems, but that the problems for protoss make it difficult to show consistent results mostly because of the scouting problem. Naniwa did 4 gates in order to be the agressor (in which case you don't really need early scouting), but as 4 gates got nerfed, naniwa's build got weaker and I think MLG will show the results of the most recent patch.
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Protoss goes through one patch where they cant 1-a, and suddenly all the tosses start whining.
Saying that they wanna switch to zerg, its really funny.. Because the style u have to play to beat a protoss is insanely hard. Requires a metric tonne of multitasking and lots and lots of bases. Constantly reinforcing with diffrent types of army etc.. Not as easy as it looks... Whereas protoss can still win 50% of their games with a 3 base turtle into deathball.
I dont blame them though, the collosus is basically the only t3 tech thats any good. Even though archons got slightly buffed.
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On June 04 2011 03:47 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +protoss still wins 66% against zerg you retards. protoss is just a flawed race where the best zerg can't do anything but the protoss can't win against terran because protoss is so easy they can't find a way to improve their play. if anything blizzard needs to remove the race from the game because P matchups are always boring, so much so that T can only go MMM and Z can only make roaches, unless it's some cutesy timing push or coinflip stratLast edit: 2011-06-04 03:37:10 No they don't. There are no statistics that support the argument that at this point in the game Protoss is winning 2 out of 3 matches against Zerg. And your understanding of the diversity of P matchups is laughable. Any Terran who neglects Ghosts and Vikings will lose these days, end there are lots of builds that mix in some mech units to favorable results. Infestors and Corruptors are de rigueur in ZvP, and banelings are showing up more and more, and even the Roach-heaviest strats do eventually mix in some Hydras. Protoss is not UP. Nor are they a "flawed" race with some sort of rock-paper-scissors dynamic with Z and T. Protoss is fully capable of beating the other two races, and the other two races are fully capable of beating Protoss, and in each matchup there are a number of viable builds and strats on each side. Races have their ups and downs, and matchup balance swings on a pendulum. One side comes up with a new build or strat or playstyle that shifts the matchup in their favor for a bit, and then eventually the other side adapts and responds. Patches make things even more unstable as there is a period where players must adjust. Protoss had a while where they couldn't get past the Ro8, then MC won multiple championships, now they had a bad month. None of this means Protoss is OP, or UP, its just the normal ebb and flow of the game.
No statistics?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228319
Unlike you I'm actually using evidence in my argument instead of delivering pointless anecdotes and clearly showing how much you misunderstand the matchups. When I said Terran only uses MMM and Zerg only uses Roaches I didn't mean to use some kind of bronze league logic where you see players going mass hellion and nothing else. Yes Terran uses Vikings and Ghosts, but they are support units. It's the same thing with Zerg where you mix in Infestors and Corrupters, but that is not a core of your army. However, that doesn't change the fact that against Protoss you have a large number of units that are simply not viable. In fact how often do you see Hydralisks used in ZvP anymore? Most GSL ZvP games are always almost 100% max Roach armies, and that's because Protoss has so many units that take minimal skill to use which hard counter them. Protoss is a hard counter race and it's why you see so many Zerg units and Mech never being used. This has always been the case, right from the beta. Maybe when I see mech actually being viable and not just being used in some specific build order designed to hit a timing, I'll believe what you said. For now you have no evidence to support you.
As for balance issues, many things are very clear with Protoss. Forge FE is impossible to pressure against competent Protoss that learn to deal with the attacks and don't get caught out of position, Protoss is too good defensively. Meanwhile there are also issues with PvT, and the issue behind that is Protoss can do absolutely nothing against a skilled player. Terran have kept on improving but Protoss have reached their skill ceiling. It's a fundamentally flawed race where macro and micro is so much more simplistic that the only thing you can improve upon is forcefields. Terrans at this stage of the game have improved their ghost usage immensely, and that's exactly why they aren't getting dominated by Protoss like they were before. This is also the reason why Terran does much worse at lower levels against Protoss, and it's simply because the race is harder. Once you get good enough however, it changes to the point where there is nothing that Protoss can do. And it's Blizzard's fault.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:30 dan1mal wrote:
Protoss goes through one patch where they cant 1-a, and suddenly all the tosses start whining.
Saying that they wanna switch to zerg, its really funny.. Because the style u have to play to beat a protoss is insanely hard. Requires a metric tonne of multitasking and lots and lots of bases. Constantly reinforcing with diffrent types of army etc.. Not as easy as it looks... Whereas protoss can still win 50% of their games with a 3 base turtle into deathball.
I dont blame them though, the collosus is basically the only t3 tech thats any good. Even though archons got slightly buffed.
But there is the beauty for you: you CAN actually do something with your skill. Protoss cant do anything with it. See above post for details.
Ive always whined about these points though. I dont care if protoss is good or bad, its just designed as the 5th wc3 race T_T
Just imagine if you could charge your zealots on your own units (blink back --> charge back).. stuff like that. Then you could actually use your skills and speed T_T
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