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On June 04 2011 04:26 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:21 Alejandrisha wrote:On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is... Protoss don't whine because protosses are weak in the GSL. We know inca is terrible lol. For me it's more frustration that anything. The only way I can take wins off of good zergs is by doing stupid 2 base all ins or sitting there and doing nothing on 3-4 bases and trying to win the game with 1 push with some oppurtunities for DT harass. Zergs have gotten so solid in the middle game that you literally cannot do any damage unless you are cutting all econ and devoting everything to a timing- an all in, or amassing such an army that you force the zerg to have to reinforce to deal with your maxed army. It just makes for a very stale game. I'm not sure. Maybe some one will find a style that allows you to do damage without going all in, but I haven't seen it yet. Funny enough, this is exactly what Idra whined about. You gamble. And in PvZ you either turtle up insanely and defend and try to take a base or you (semi)all-in and pray that the zerg is too bad to counter you. Theres nothing more to it >_>
I ask me how Cartman would do as Carrier commander.
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It's simple really...
because Z has been getting destroyed for the past half year to a year, many new strategies (and failed attempts) have been made adapted with unique timings and to weak "holes" in the protoss build.
Has Protoss strategy changed in the past 5-6 months? Not really. Zergs at the moment plays a much more subtle game than protoss, relying on timing as well as builds. No Protoss at the moment really abuses the "time" aspect of the Z. There are (has to be) periods of time where Z is extremely vulnerable but protoss has not found that yet. That's really it.
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On June 04 2011 04:22 Irrelevant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 02:59 ZAiNs wrote:On June 04 2011 02:55 Cthun wrote:On June 04 2011 02:54 TDN wrote:
MC is out Did I miss something? When did that happen? Balance whine in 3-2-1!!! Very constructive post m8, really gives you a lot to think about. It's obvious that threads like this just promote people whining about how underpowered their race is (I play Protoss FWIW). Besides, why would you want to play Zerg because Protoss are doing badly in one tournament? What about the StarsWar where the final 4 players are all Protoss, does that make you want to play Protoss again? Inferior tournament with inferior players doesn't mean much
But StarsWar had most of the top Koreans, Europeans and more?
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@darmousseh
I feel as though the things you're pointing out are more just features of the race than weaknesses. Zergs could equally point out that their race is the only race that's unable to drain energy from other units, but that doesn't make it an inherent weakness. And tell Terran players who are being Force Fielded up their main ramp that Protoss has no space control ;D
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The biggest nerf wich allowed you good harassment was voidray speed remove . in any case it was never OP this is same like saying 40 muta ball is OP when u have only at 2 points hts infestors are the shit to stop this wich was back then very effitient used vs zerg. aswell vs Viking kiting voids wont do anything anymore .
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On June 04 2011 04:33 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:22 Irrelevant wrote:On June 04 2011 02:59 ZAiNs wrote:On June 04 2011 02:55 Cthun wrote:On June 04 2011 02:54 TDN wrote:
MC is out Did I miss something? When did that happen? Balance whine in 3-2-1!!! Very constructive post m8, really gives you a lot to think about. It's obvious that threads like this just promote people whining about how underpowered their race is (I play Protoss FWIW). Besides, why would you want to play Zerg because Protoss are doing badly in one tournament? What about the StarsWar where the final 4 players are all Protoss, does that make you want to play Protoss again? Inferior tournament with inferior players doesn't mean much But StarsWar had most of the top Koreans, Europeans and more?
First round of starswars was before warpgate nerf. Starswars is online and cross continent, hence less prestigious, less emphasis on practice.
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On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D
Timing attacks are the strongest things at Protoss' disposal due to their warpgate mechanic, especially since I feel that Protoss doesn't have the tools for a widespread macrogame on big maps.
As you said, taking a base before the Terran does is impossible and you need something to protect you from drops first anyway. To reliably take a third against Zerg you need to put so much into static defense and walling that Zerg is free to macro and tech to whatever, which is made worse by the fact that Infestors own any kind of deathball. Compared to that, the High Templar somehow turned from the best into the worst caster of the game.
Harass options are all somewhere between inefficient, unreliable and expensive. Defending against harass is a pain unless you have constant 10 warpgates ready or 5 cannons at each expansion. Techswitching is the most inefficient for Protoss out of the three races.
Scouting works because you have invisible Observers, but you are never the one with mapcontrol, because everytime you move out it feels semi allin. Whatever you do, your army is slow as hell (even worse with HTs than with colossi) and the only units that can ever retreat are Blink Stalkers.
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On June 04 2011 04:32 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:30 dan1mal wrote:
Protoss goes through one patch where they cant 1-a, and suddenly all the tosses start whining.
Saying that they wanna switch to zerg, its really funny.. Because the style u have to play to beat a protoss is insanely hard. Requires a metric tonne of multitasking and lots and lots of bases. Constantly reinforcing with diffrent types of army etc.. Not as easy as it looks... Whereas protoss can still win 50% of their games with a 3 base turtle into deathball.
I dont blame them though, the collosus is basically the only t3 tech thats any good. Even though archons got slightly buffed. But there is the beauty for you: you CAN actually do something with your skill. Protoss cant do anything with it. See above post for details. Ive always whined about these points though. I dont care if protoss is good or bad, its just designed as the 5th wc3 race T_T Just imagine if you could charge your zealots on your own units (blink back --> charge back).. stuff like that. Then you could actually use your skills and speed T_T
Yea personally I just feel Protoss was designed poorly. I don't think there's balance issues, it's just they are so limited in scope it's scary.
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On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is...
The difference between you and Idra is that one makes valid points and the other player doesn't. Idra brings up accurate analogies of for example, Protoss being too good defensively and thus it's incredibly easy for them to turtle up to a cost-efficient army. Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to beat the cost efficiency of Protoss. It doesn't matter if you outmacro a Protoss, as soon as they take the third base even if you have 6 bases you're on equal terms.
Now what is so different about Terran and Zerg? Well, Terran units actually ARE efficient
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The Ro64 of a single tournament is hardly a lot of evidence. Especially when, if you look at the Ro32 of the same tournament, Zergs won 100% of their games against Protosses.
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the mental gymnastics zerg players do over this subject really is a sight to see.
we had dummies saying korean protosses weren't good for the reason korean tosses were getting beaten pre-MC. that sentiment was laughable then. it is laughable now.
personally, i don't think it's a balance issue. keep in mind, we had this same thread before MC started doing so well.
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lol it was pretty obvious to me a long time ago that protoss would have trouble winning stuff compared to the other races. and the zerg balance complaints were always dumb, especially the ones coming from idra. incredibly biased.
protoss has tools to win, its just FUCKING HARD unless they try to get lucky.
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On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future.
All the Korean Protoss you mentioned have been consistently staying in Code S and you said they're awful.
Great logic there. lol
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On June 04 2011 02:52 Cthun wrote:Hello, This is a spoiler thread, so if you haven't watched the GSL, but still want to do it, do not open the rest of it... You've been warned.+ Show Spoiler +Right now as I'm watching the GSL super tournament on GOMTV, it is depressing to see how the badly the protoss players are doing. Most of the protoss are losing left and right to other races, with only HuK and MC still playing decent. It was nice to see how Trickster played, but now, even he is out...
Makes me want to switch to zerg :/
What do you guys think?
I don't really think Huk plaid decent in his set against san... <.<
Looking forward to Alicia, though! :D
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On June 04 2011 02:52 Cthun wrote:Hello, This is a spoiler thread, so if you haven't watched the GSL, but still want to do it, do not open the rest of it... You've been warned.+ Show Spoiler +Right now as I'm watching the GSL super tournament on GOMTV, it is depressing to see how the badly the protoss players are doing. Most of the protoss are losing left and right to other races, with only HuK and MC still playing decent. It was nice to see how Trickster played, but now, even he is out...
Makes me want to switch to zerg :/
What do you guys think?
Trust me, we protoss are doing fine.
And as a former zerg I say to you don't switch to them... I won't say any more I just find them way more difficult to play as and playing against them I find them easy to punish.
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On June 04 2011 04:38 Severian wrote:The Ro64 of a single tournament is hardly a lot of evidence. Especially when, if you look at the Ro32 of the same tournament, Zergs won 100% of their games against Protosses.
It is when the thread says "Protoss in the GSL", and it's definitely stronger than the 2 sets you're bringing up.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
And you know, there's one other thing. No up and coming player plays protoss. They all play either zerg or terran. That is something very interesting. There's some protosses we've seen done well (e.g., ImSeed), but they just cant get there. While zergs and especially terrans are just popping like flies. Protoss is easy to get (half)good with, but I think as players practice more and the skill cap becomes greater, zerg and terran will get more and more ahead.
For example, the baneling drop strategy versus protoss is insanely hard to use, it requires a lot of skill. But its a possibility, and its very very effective. So as players get more skilled, this gets stronger and stronger.
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On June 04 2011 03:45 Cthun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 03:28 Atila wrote:its NOT imbalance its a result of people figuring out how to deal with protoss and many protoss are doing well its silly to bring up MC because + Show Spoiler +You obviously don't watch GSL THAT OFTEN because you only mentioned HuK, MC, and Trickster, which are only a few and generally they perform mediocre in tournaments (yes this extends to MC, lately he hasn't been getting results, but I do acknowledge he's done very well in the past) To conclude, yes it's a change in results, yes its good. Race distribution is about even now, showing that this game has matured beyond "imbalance" + Show Spoiler +Well both MC and Trickster are out... As I said, I'm putting my hopes in HuK and Alicia (in that order). Trickster's play style was far from good... And sadly MC got beat by Alicia in the PVP match up. HuK beat San, in yet another PvP... It's also lot of bad luck with the match making.
I concur, and I just read my post and it sounds pretty bm, so I'll apologize
In response to the PvZ discussion:
I think the whole P > Z discussion a month ago should shed some light on this:
ITS NOT A BALANCE PROBLEM, ITS THE METAGAME. And its still entirely possible to win a PvZ.
Furthermore, people are posting "oh Zerg is the op race now". its not. at all. shut up. it just feels that way because zergs have figured out how to win and win percentage is ABOUT equal.
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On June 04 2011 04:42 Beyonder wrote:
And you know, there's one other thing. No up and coming player plays protoss. They all play either zerg or terran. That is something very interesting. There's some protosses we've seen done well (e.g., ImSeed), but they just cant get there. While zergs and especially terrans are just popping like flies. Protoss is easy to get (half)good with, but I think as players practice more and the skill cap becomes greater, zerg and terran will get more and more ahead.
Yes, protoss is a fundamentally flawed race. They are stuck in the middle where a Zerg has to be much much better than the other player to beat one, but when it comes to Terrans, Protoss is simply unable to do anything.
Protoss requires the least micro and macro, and this is what happens when players actually get good.
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On June 04 2011 04:38 elitesniper420 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is... The difference between you and Idra is that one makes valid points and the other player doesn't. Idra brings up accurate analogies of for example, Protoss being too good defensively and thus it's incredibly easy for them to turtle up to a cost-efficient army. Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to beat the cost efficiency of Protoss. It doesn't matter if you outmacro a Protoss, as soon as they take the third base even if you have 6 bases you're on equal terms. Now what is so different about Terran and Zerg? Well, Terran units actually ARE efficient
Of course it matters.
You have the best caster in the game that does heavy damage to armored (nearly every protoss unit in a ball is armored), you have the most supply efficient unit in the game (bling), you have the best harassing tool in the game (muta).
On top of that you can easily drop zerglings, cheap supply units that deal ridiculous dmg upgraded (cracklings + 2 / +3 upgrade kill buildings so fast it's not even funny).
Of course if you go roach / hydra / corrupter it doesn't matter if you go 6 bases.
Roaches / hydra aren't supply efficient. They are a good unit to transition from in the mid game.
Once zergs gets 5 bases, infestor broodlord and many bling / lings it's insanely difficult to win.
Watch hasuobs vs xlord from the eps semi-final for instance. There you see the power difference of macro zerg, and roach macro zerg (lol).
Idra is just bad at ZvP cause he builds roaches throughout the game and thinks he is the better player if he drops 2 overlords via minimap without even watching after them.
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EPT
