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On June 04 2011 04:38 elitesniper420 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is... The difference between you and Idra is that one makes valid points and the other player doesn't. Idra brings up accurate analogies of for example, Protoss being too good defensively and thus it's incredibly easy for them to turtle up to a cost-efficient army. Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to beat the cost efficiency of Protoss. It doesn't matter if you outmacro a Protoss, as soon as they take the third base even if you have 6 bases you're on equal terms. Now what is so different about Terran and Zerg? Well, Terran units actually ARE efficient
Uh.. I'm pretty sure Protoss units are expected to be more cost efficient vs Zerg units.
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This is my conjecture regarding the shifting PVZ metagame from watching a lot of the pro games.
The now popular roach ling aggression early on forces a ton of forcefields, and depending on the circumstances (cannon position, attack angle, wall, army position) the toss may even lose a lot of sentries. It comes at a time when the toss army is composed primarily of sentries and lacks the DPS to wipe the floor with the enemy army. Even if the protoss holds, he's unable to do any form of aggression until FF recharges. If he loses sentries, then he may even have to sacrifice tech time to replenish them (100 gas per paper machentry isn't cheap).
Heavy sentry into expansion/tech was a popular and effective tactic before, but this now popularized "possibility of roach/lings" has instilled a sort of fear into the way protoss play their early game.
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On June 04 2011 04:39 TDN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. All the Korean Protoss you mentioned have been consistently staying in Code S and you said they're awful. Great logic there. lol
San was knocked down into Code A. Alicia's only been there for one season.
On June 04 2011 04:41 elitesniper420 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:38 Severian wrote:The Ro64 of a single tournament is hardly a lot of evidence. Especially when, if you look at the Ro32 of the same tournament, Zergs won 100% of their games against Protosses. It is when the thread says "Protoss in the GSL", and it's definitely stronger than the 2 sets you're bringing up.
I only brought it up to demonstrate how stupid it was of you to bring the Ro64 alone up. You can't use one round of one tournament as your sole data for the PvZ winrate in Korea, especially when a later round of that same tournament has been played that reduces that winrate to 50%! Seriously, think about it for a minute.
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In the end in this thread combining versatile flaws of the race Protoss wont allow a new patch to hit.
Other initiatives must be done.
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Lets revisit this thread in the next GSL and see if the complaint is still valid. Let's be honest, people look at one tourny to deduce the strength/weakness of a race quite often, and it's such a small collection of data that it really has very little merit. If it were true for a bunch of tournies all at the same time you might have something, but as people mentioned, the final four of Star Wars? All Protoss.
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On June 04 2011 04:35 branflakes14 wrote:
@darmousseh
I feel as though the things you're pointing out are more just features of the race than weaknesses. Zergs could equally point out that their race is the only race that's unable to drain energy from other units, but that doesn't make it an inherent weakness. And tell Terran players who are being Force Fielded up their main ramp that Protoss has no space control ;D
Weaknesses are features?
Also zerg can mind-control instead of feedback. There are problems with zerg obviously (I also play zerg), but their problems are more related to larva mechanics/scouting.
Forcefield a ramp is a good way to get an expansion up, but it doesn't last very long and it costs forcefield energy.
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They've had what, 2 weeks to adapt to warpgate change? Give it time, hastiness is what led to the premature demise of the reaper.
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This is actually very good for the game. You know how everyone hates the a-move protoss deathball? Well now they actually have incentive to try other things, not just an incentive but a need to. I think harass is going to be part of it, it just seems to make the most sense, especially against zerg. Harass is the best way to slow zerg down without risking an all-in, it's also more difficult to pull off against a good opponent, but that doesn't mean it cannot be done. Zerg already avoids clumping up units. Terran already avoids clumping up units. Maybe it is now toss's turn. Only time will tell, but I look forward to see some innovation from protoss, because for awhile now their play has been the most boring to watch (to me) largely because of how simple their strategies have been (build an army and win). Most people have blamed this on the design of the race itself, but the fact is while some people have called other methods "impossible", there has been little to no reason to spend hours and hours trying them. Perhaps it is time to problem solve and figure out ways to use that little warp prism, rather than complain about how useless it is.
I also want to address this comment "as a protoss you either go all-in with warpgates, or you turtle and try to get your most efficient unit mix". Well you're "masters / GM" (I didn't know you could be in 2 leagues at once lololol), well you're better than me, or at least higher ranked, but that doesn't mean you are correct - or that you can think better than me. Because you know what? What you said implies one thing, that you think protoss "has" to go all in or build a deathball, which means you got to your rank by doing such things, which means you don't know how to play with a different style on the level you've been playing on, which means you are likely going to lose a fuck ton of games before you you stumble on something amazing. Or you could just switch to terran, and ride the flavor of the month.
Yes I am a zerg player. Yes I am guilty of balance whine. But you know what? I was wrong, and a very, very glad I didn't race switch over it. You might not believe me when I say this change of attitude is NOT because of the current pro level change in the meta game, but I decided weeks ago to just try new things and look for solutions, and that was really all I needed - to try new things, and not be so arrogant to think that I already know the "best" way to play - while thinking the "best" way to play is also inferior and underpowered. There are other ways to win, find them.
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I have faith in Alicia and Huk to keep holding the Protoss flag high. To be honest, we're probably seeing a little bit of a metagame shift right now. Zerg and Terran players are learning to deal with the deathball, and now Protoss players have to develop new styles around that. We'll see what happens.
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On June 04 2011 03:54 Hypemeup wrote:
One side of the fence we have the IdrA-infuenced zerg crowd, who have been whining about being UP since the game got into beta.
On the other side we have Protoss players who are fed up with being called skilless retards by angry zergs.
And sitting on the fence we have terrans, who are like "whatever we are the hardest race anyways"
Summed up pretty well lol.
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To me Korean toss players always seemed inferior to their terran and zerg brothers. So it's no wonder that they started to lose in the end.
And MC was unlucky T.T
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Let's take a look at the PvZ and PvT played so far.
Warning: This spoiler is a short summary of every played game yet. The official report of the R64 is out. If you haven't seen them and don't want to get spoiled..you know what to do.
+ Show Spoiler +Round of 64
MVP vs Creator - Great series, Creator took a game off the amazing MVP so I don't think this says much about the state of the protoss. MVP > Creator so he won like it should be. Of course, this is based on past results, but you can't say that MVP is trash and that he didn't deserve the win. He played well.
Inca vs Ryung - ....Terran is pretty good at stopping all-ins? Dumb series tbh. If you are mad because protoss all-ins aren't working anymore, don't switch to zerg you'll be disapointed.
jookTo vs Anypro - G1 he wanted to hit a timing, and so did JookTo. Anypro turned around. When do you win when you turn around? Never. Poor decision making by Anypro. Game 2: Kind of like zerg vs 4gate, if you have no idea it's coming you're going to lose. Yet, we notice Protoss stopping a zerg all in with no units. I'd like to zerg stop 4gate with only spines  The versatility of Protoss not matched by Zerg, so don't complain about that. Zerg one base SUCKS as seen in this game. Game 3: Interesting roach/baneling-centric style from jookto, Anypro not responding properly. He should of sit back, got collosi, got many forcefield and ROLLED over jookto. Again, Anypro didn't respond correctly to Jookto's unit composition. Imba? Then collosi/gatewayunits is imba because you can't kill roach hydra.
Trickster vs Yugioh - Lol.Yugioh got rolled over, with non-standard play too. Protoss still has very many options. Genius vs Boxer - Good series. Genius played well and Boxer did several mistakes, Genius won. Makes sense...
Fruitdealer vs Ace - Good example of Protoss winning games they shouldn't. Fruitdealer didn't sniff out the all-ins properly and lost, like it should be.
Squirtles vs Marineking - Squirtle scouted poorly and didn't see the timings coming. He wasn't prepared, he lost. End of story. How many times have Protoss been victor in these types of scenarios? Look at Ace. He won IEM with one build.
Byun vs Legalmind - Should terrible players win? ... Kyrix vs Vanvanth - read ^
Choya vs Zenio - Choya won doing allins. Did you notice in the Round of 64 how many protoss players won with standard play? Those who played standard always did quite well. There's not many great standard protoss players. Are you mad because all-ins are so effective anymore? Round of 32
TheBest vs Trickster - Nice all in from theBest. He got pretty lucky and I don't personally think he should of won but timings are timings and theBest had good micro while Trickster showed some poor decision making in G3 so it's a player thing not a race thing. Genius vs Min - One of the best ZvP in this tournament so far. Game 1: Trickster got really greedy with his tech. He got a third base without robo = without scouting, and he lost. If protoss 6 gates and zerg doesn't get burrow and a lot of units zerg loses, so if roaches are imba, 6 gate is imba, 4 gate is imba, anything is. The point is, you can't just expand without tech and scouting information, especially when your opponent has the tech to punish it. Game 2: Genius lost too many probes to baneling drops, did some dumb moving around while Min got thousands of mutas. Interview with Min: Min said he the best way to beat Genius was with mutas. Did Genius know about this weakness? Did he adjust his play to Min's style? Doesn't look like it since he got ouplayed hard, I don't think the player didn't deserve to win. VERY DISAPOINTING pheonix control. Like masters player can outrun mutas I was laughing.
Revival vs HongUn - Revival looked at HongUn's replays, which featured the same build over and over again. He found a weakness, exploited it. He deserved to win because HongUn changed nothing in his play, which was not that safe afterall. Conclusion: I don't know what you're complaining about. It seems to me like you're complaining that those fucking terrible players who got past the round of 64 doing all-ins all the time are not winning anymore and so you're mad. Protoss players who played standard did great, the Creator vs MVP games were way too close in my opinion. Protoss is really strong race but the thing about all-ins is if they don't work you lose.
TL;DR: Protoss is a great race just bad players.
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On June 04 2011 04:44 elitesniper420 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:42 Beyonder wrote:
And you know, there's one other thing. No up and coming player plays protoss. They all play either zerg or terran. That is something very interesting. There's some protosses we've seen done well (e.g., ImSeed), but they just cant get there. While zergs and especially terrans are just popping like flies. Protoss is easy to get (half)good with, but I think as players practice more and the skill cap becomes greater, zerg and terran will get more and more ahead. Yes, protoss is a fundamentally flawed race. They are stuck in the middle where a Zerg has to be much much better than the other player to beat one, but when it comes to Terrans, Protoss is simply unable to do anything. Protoss requires the least micro and macro, and this is what happens when players actually get good.
Wrong statement. Protoss requires the most micro to be on par with equal cost army for early game and mid game. Proven.
Also, zerg's have some insanely cost-efficient unit, namely the roach. And since Protoss units can't really deal with armies cost efficiently unless they're in a giant ball, it makes kinda bad. I mean, hell, it takes 8 supply of zealots vs marines for zealots to already lose their cost efficiency. Meanwhile, roaches in small to medium sizes counter both zealots and stalkers with a cheaper cost.
I'm both a Zerg and Protoss player. It's really true that Protoss is a weak race that relies on so many gimicks. If maps weren't made correctly with enough chokes, Protoss would die badly.
As for Terran ... you try to gimp mech with their lack of mobility, and gimp MMM with splash. Zerg has an answer to marine tank, but Protosses must wait until Collosus or storm to do so, unless you power through with lots of units.
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Amazing how people think that PvT favours terran :o... You need to drop like a mad dogg and do a HUGE amount of damage before you can actually battle the protoss army. Collossus + HT is almost unbeatable and mech is still not possible. Voidray allins are VERY hard to hold and 6gate is ridicilous without 4+ bunkers. You need to put a turret early game or you die to DT players (I'm talking about FE tosses that go DT's around 9:00). EMP is strong, I agree, but I really saw 200/200 vs 200/200 fights where both players had 3-3 and where the terran emped every single protoss unit. Result: terran loses the battle, protoss warps in a new round and GG.
Am I the only one seeing TvP as balanced in EU and NA? It's different in Korea, I agree, but I feel like Europe and Korea have the same skill level.
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On June 04 2011 04:44 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:38 elitesniper420 wrote:On June 04 2011 04:16 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:14 Mailing wrote:On June 04 2011 04:10 Beyonder wrote:On June 04 2011 04:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Inside of korea protoss is really awkward. You have people like anypro and inca who have been in the gsl forever but are awful. You have people like hongun and sangho that are pretty bad but stick around somehow. You have MC who was unbeatable for a time just doing gimmicky builds. You have San who is trying to play macro games and having some success. Then you have Alicia who is the only one who has shown he is compentant at playing a macro game. Really, he is the only one I'd ever want to learn from.
It is weird because protosses in NA/EU win tournaments with builds that korean protosses do and get smashed. It makes me think it is game design rather than talent; any time a protoss has time to prepare for a gsl match what does he come up with? A gimmicky timing attack, most likely. If these are the players that are grinding double digit hours a day and that is the only thing they can come up with, I am very worried for protoss in the future. I think protoss is quite easy to get good with as it does not allow for that much skill input. So al ot of practice pays off in that regard. But its insanely hard to get truly good with for that same reason. You simply can not do all that much with your units. Outmacroing is out of the question: you cant take bases ahead of your opponent. There's a reason they come up with gimmicky timing attacks. Cant believe that the zergs are still whining nowadays. Zerg is sick strong atm :D Dude zerg are not whining much. We are mad at protoss thinking zerg is strong vs protoss now because their weakness GSL players lost badly to zergs while the actually impressive ones like MC and Squirtle and Ace get knocked out by PvP and PvT They see Inca getting smashed by NesTea an indicator that protoss are weak somehow.. You still see it all over the forums: zerg still feel misstreated, with Idra as their glorious imba whine leader. I actually think PvZ is still somewhat ok. PvT is... The difference between you and Idra is that one makes valid points and the other player doesn't. Idra brings up accurate analogies of for example, Protoss being too good defensively and thus it's incredibly easy for them to turtle up to a cost-efficient army. Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to beat the cost efficiency of Protoss. It doesn't matter if you outmacro a Protoss, as soon as they take the third base even if you have 6 bases you're on equal terms. Now what is so different about Terran and Zerg? Well, Terran units actually ARE efficient Of course it matters. You have the best caster in the game that does heavy damage to armored (nearly every protoss unit in a ball is armored), you have the most supply efficient unit in the game (bling), you have the best harassing tool in the game (muta). On top of that you can easily drop zerglings, cheap supply units that deal ridiculous dmg upgraded (cracklings + 2 / +3 upgrade kill buildings so fast it's not even funny). Of course if you go roach / hydra / corrupter it doesn't matter if you go 6 bases. Roaches / hydra aren't supply efficient. They are a good unit to transition from in the mid game. Once zergs gets 5 bases, infestor broodlord and many bling / lings it's insanely difficult to win. Watch hasuobs vs xlord from the eps semi-final for instance. There you see the power difference of macro zerg, and roach macro zerg (lol). Idra is just bad at ZvP cause he builds roaches throughout the game and thinks he is the better player if he drops 2 overlords via minimap without even watching after them.
Let's see the points you listed:
1) Infestors: costs 100/150, and Fungal Growth is completely worthless against any Tier 3 unit Protoss has. Neural Parasite isn't but it isn't hard to deny a channeling ability. Blink Stalkers can snipe them, HT can kill them instantly, and Colossus can simply target them. Also useless until mid to lategame.
2) Banelings, which in terms of supply are more expensive than Ultralisks, are somehow efficient against armored units which size allows them to take much less splash damage than something like marines. Yes Baneling drops are good, but that efficiency is suddenly drastically reduced when *gasp* the Protoss splits his Stalkers.
3) Zergling drops? Well placed cannons completely get rid of Zerglings. It doesn't even matter how many minerals you spent on them, if you have at least 2-3 bases mining you can spend as much money as you want on cannons.
Also an Infestor/Brood Lord composition against Protoss compositions with heavy Tier 3 actually cost more by a huge margin, especially in gas. Therefore the only way Zerg can ever build a composition like this is if they literally never push out.
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Look at how those protoss lost their matches before starting to cry!
They just played very allinish/risky strategies or did some huge mistakes. It's just those individuals playing bad, not the protoss race having a hard time!
I have no clue why this thread isn't closed yet. Shall everyone start a thread about switching the race when some players are doing poorly in a tournament?
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On June 04 2011 04:52 Steel wrote:Let's take a look at the PvZ and PvT played so far. Warning: This spoiler is a short summary of every played game yet. The official report of the R64 is out. If you haven't seen them and don't want to get spoiled..you know what to do. + Show Spoiler +Round of 64MVP vs Creator - Great series, Creator took a game off the amazing MVP so I don't think this says much about the state of the protoss. MVP > Creator so he won like it should be. Of course, this is based on past results, but you can't say that MVP is trash and that he didn't deserve the win. He played well. Inca vs Ryung - ....Terran is pretty good at stopping all-ins? Dumb series tbh. If you are mad because protoss all-ins aren't working anymore, don't switch to zerg you'll be disapointed. jookTo vs Anypro - G1 he wanted to hit a timing, and so did JookTo. Anypro turned around. When do you win when you turn around? Never. Poor decision making by Anypro. Game 2: Kind of like zerg vs 4gate, if you have no idea it's coming you're going to lose. Yet, we notice Protoss stopping a zerg all in with no units. I'd like to zerg stop 4gate with only spines The versatility of Protoss not matched by Zerg, so don't complain about that. Zerg one base SUCKS as seen in this game. Game 3: Interesting roach/baneling-centric style from jookto, Anypro not responding properly. He should of sit back, got collosi, got many forcefield and ROLLED over jookto. Again, Anypro didn't respond correctly to Jookto's unit composition. Imba? Then collosi/gatewayunits is imba because you can't kill roach hydra. Trickster vs Yugioh - Lol.Yugioh got rolled over, with non-standard play too. Protoss still has very many options. Genius vs Boxer - Good series. Genius played well and Boxer did several mistakes, Genius won. Makes sense... Fruitdealer vs Ace - Good example of Protoss winning games they shouldn't. Squirtles vs Marineking - Squirtle scouted poorly and didn't see the timings coming. He wasn't prepared, he lost. End of story. How many times have Protoss been victor in these types of scenarios? Look at Ace. He won IEM with one build. Byun vs Legalmind - Should terrible players win? ... Kyrix vs Vanvanth - read ^ Choya vs Zenio - Choya won doing allins. Did you notice in the Round of 64 how many protoss players won with standard play? Those who played standard always did quite well. There's not many great standard protoss players. Are you mad because all-ins are so effective anymore? Round of 32TheBest vs Trickster - Nice all in from theBest. He got pretty lucky and I don't personally think he should of won but timings are timings and theBest had good micro while Trickster showed some poor decision making in G3 so it's a player thing not a race thing. Genius vs Min - One of the best ZvP in this tournament so far. Game 1: Trickster got really greedy with his tech. He got a third base without robo = without scouting, and he lost. If protoss 6 gates and zerg doesn't get burrow and a lot of units zerg loses, so if roaches are imba, 6 gate is imba, 4 gate is imba, anything is. The point is, you can't just expand without tech and scouting information, especially when your opponent has the tech to punish it. Game 2: Genius lost too many probes to baneling drops, did some dumb moving around while Min got thousands of mutas. Interview with Min: Min said he the best way to beat Genius was with mutas. Did Genius know about this weakness? Did he adjust his play to Min's style? Doesn't look like it since he got ouplayed hard, I don't think the player didn't deserve to win. VERY DISAPOINTING pheonix control. Like masters player can outrun mutas I was laughing. Revival vs HongUn - Revival looked at HongUn's replays, which featured the same build over and over again. He found a weakness, exploited it. He deserved to win because HongUn changed nothing in his play, which was not that safe afterall. Conclusion: I don't know what you're complaining about. It seems to me like you're complaining that those fucking terrible players who got past the round of 64 doing all-ins all the time are not winning anymore and so you're mad. Protoss players who played standard did great, the Creator vs MVP games were way too close in my opinion. Protoss is really strong race but the thing about all-ins is if they don't work you lose. TL;DR: Protoss is a great race just bad players.
annnnnd here we go.
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It's all Idra's fault IMO. Idra has so much fanboys that when he loses and cries OP, all his zerg follower goes along with it. As for Terran and Protoss, you don't see MC or MVP/Bomber or any top Terran complaining about OP after they lose.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
id dare say that the same mistakes are made by zergs and terrans, but that protoss simply cannot recover (especialyl vs terran) and cannot retreat. Like zerg on small maps T_T
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On June 04 2011 04:29 darmousseh wrote:
There are a # of problems protoss has which makes them weak in certain situations.
1. Protoss units can't retreat.
One of the major advantages of blink stalkers and collosus is that you can retreat with them, but zealots, immortals, void rays and to some extent HT and archons cannot retreat fast enough. if a terran is losing a battle, they can stim and run away. Zerg units are so fast they can just sprint away. Other than stalkers and collosus, once a protoss engages, they must commit or else be willing to lose all of their zealots. This was the problem with archons, but that changed in the patch. Marauders and infestors don't help the situation either.
2. Protoss can reinforce too quickly.
When blizzard did balancing, they needed to consider the effect of reinforcement on the balance. Because protoss can warp in, the units are weaker by a large margin.
3. High dependance on spell casters and high dps units Terran can win games with marines and marauders only. Once terran has stim, protoss needs sentries (for guardian shields and forcefields), collosus (to do dps) or HT, and blink/charge and all high dps units from protoss are easily counterable. (vikings against collosus, ghosts against HT, concussive shells against charge/blink). If protoss wants to win, they need to win every single engagement.
4. No area controlling units. Dark templar can be considered area controlling to a tiny extent, but only lasts a short time. Tanks for terran, banelings and infestors for zerg, protoss literally has nothing. At one time, protoss could hold a position by having a pylon and being able to warp in a high templar with kydarian amulet, but no more. There is no risk advancing into a protoss base. This is the biggest reason why protoss is always in a ball.
5. Highly limited tech choice This somewhat opened up with the recent changes to archon, but most air builds are almost autolosses and warp prism play offers very limited reward with high risks. Obviously protoss hasn't explored EVERY single option, but it's not due to a lack of trying.
6. The cost of scouting is too high. A terran can scout with reapers or scans at almost any moment, a zerg can send an overlord , but a protoss must choose a specific tech pattern and sacrifice tech choices in order to scout. If the protoss gets hallucination, then that's 2 less forcefields and less tech. If the protoss gets an obs, that's 200m/100g followed by 25m/75g. And scouting makes protoss SUPER vulnerable to a fast timing attack. I think protoss need to get that super fast immortal to be safe followed by a chrono'd observer in order to be safe against dt builds, banshee builds, and burrowed roach. My guess is that blizzard designed protoss to always get a fast robo every game (considering all of the units like immortals, observers, and warp prisms), but the truth is that the investment makes it difficult to choose another tech path if you scout something that robo is not good against. Zerg can scout with a lair (a natural part of their tech path) and terran can scout with scans or reapers (a very natural part of the tech path). I still think this is something that can be explored. Maybe hallucination first builds or something would really go a long way to help out. Maybe 1 gate robo is the build of the future, something to be considered. This however I believe is the #1 problem protoss currently has.
I'm not saying protoss is UP, they still win a lot of games and each race has it's own problems, but that the problems for protoss make it difficult to show consistent results mostly because of the scouting problem. Naniwa did 4 gates in order to be the agressor (in which case you don't really need early scouting), but as 4 gates got nerfed, naniwa's build got weaker and I think MLG will show the results of the most recent patch.
You're trolling, right?
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EPT
