Protoss at the GSL - Page 11

On June 04 2011 05:02 Reborn8u wrote:
I think all protoss should do 1 of 2 things. Switch races and don't look back. Blizzard has nerfed protoss 2x more than zerg and terran combined. When protoss gets a buff it goes to archons and phoenix. Seriously, they nerfed zealots, what are the chances of marines or lings getting a build time nerf?

Or pretend you're zerg and go 15 nexus all day on ladder in every matchup, whine that is unfair that you can't be ahead all game long and when the statistics plummet for protoss even after buffs well just keep pluggin along with our 15 nexus until we get base units that aren't 2x the cost for less dmg.

On June 04 2011 05:11 Steel wrote:




I think it's kind of silly too look at the GSL since most Protoss players all-ined. Macro protosses are rare and those who exist have been doing quite well.

On June 04 2011 05:08 travis wrote:


dude have you watched nestea? he is freaking amazing!

On June 04 2011 04:05 Beyonder wrote:
As someone who plays all three races, but especially protoss and zerg, I feel that protoss is kind of weak at the moment. It might be something we have not figured out yet, but regardless, it is incredibly hard and if the proper timings are abused, protoss has absolutely zero room to breathe and a big chance of losing.

Versus terran there are simply tons of stuff they can do, and you really have no idea which one, so you prepare for multiple. Scouting early is difficult and close to impossible once the marine comes out. Are they going fast ghost marauder marine? Are they doing the annoying tank banshee marine thing? Fast drops? Just marauder marine? Banshees? There are tons of possibilities. And with each build, tons of timings that can be used. The marauder and bunker generally prevents you from harassing, or doing anything that involves skill, unless you take a huge gamble, because there is no way that you can get behind-- then the timing pushes just kill you. You have to wait with taking your extra base till you know Terran takes it on most maps, this counts for your third as well. Its just very very difficult and if you want to play a tad safe, youre forced to play extremely reactive. One mistake and there are no units to get you back in to the game: the protoss units simply do not allow for a lot of skill input. They are kind of straight forward, attack move units, almost wc3esque with our a-click units as heroes (sup colossus).

Versus zerg, early harassment is also almost all-in. Either one base or two base. You get behind, then youre forced to turtle up and there's simply not much more to do than that. Wait till you have a huge army, defend, and move out. Zerg is just incredibly strong at the moment and the only way to deal with it is go (semi) all in with a huge push and pray that the opponent doesnt have the macro, or try to secure bases and move out when youre psy capped.

This is why I wished that I played terran. Its units are so mobile, so versatile, and the harass units mix into the regular army so incredibly well (sup banshee). You can come back from behind (see TvT and TvZ) because your units allow for a lot of skill input. And zergs can actually take expands on big maps agressively. Bleh.

In general, protoss is truly the practice race. It is kind of what zerg was before T_T. You play full reactionary, then every tiny mistake gets punished. You try to (somewhat) dicatate the game? then youre almost all-in.

On June 04 2011 05:14 Fleuria wrote:
Again people figured out to how to play against protoss in terms of roach ling all ins vs the originally very very strong 3 gate sentry expand, mass ghosts and shizzle to destroy all shields and the horrifically immobile force that just encounters a terrible amount run bys when trying to push out vs zerg...

Personally I had to swap races after wanting to punch my screen continuously due to runbys and roach ling all ins, now I play zerg and have a massive troll face on every game I win vs protoss via run bys and roach ling all ins :D

The guy above summed it up pretty well why protoss is weak atm

On June 04 2011 03:46 Reborn8u wrote:
I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread, some the comments would only make sense 6 months ago. With the buffs to zerg and nerfs to toss along with lingering undressed issues, protoss is not what it once was. I personally think that the nerfs designed to "fix" pvp, put protoss over the tipping point and have hurt toss greatly in every matchup. A 4 gate rush in pvp is still hard to stop if you don't have 4 gates, but in the other matchups I don't think it's that people can't win by 4 gating but that the threat isn't there. I loved 4 gating zergs, but it was razor thin whether or not it held and game deciding. With that threat being 20 seconds later, it is 2x easier for zerg to hold. Also, that 20 seconds also means that when a protoss 3gate expands against zerg they only have 3 or 4 units and warp isn't done when they want to put down the nexus. Just setting back every potential warp in 20 seconds has opened the door for zergs to deny the natural. Meanwhile zerg can expand at 15 food and toss can't do anything but try to force a few units early instead of drones.

Another issue for protoss in every matchup is that protoss is very reliant on FF's and Colossus. When zergs deal with FF's by doing bane drops or roach burrow, it looks like most protoss's (at least that I've seen) don't have any answer. Terrans are getting emp earlier and 1 good emp is GG, people say "spread out your units" but there are situations where you can't do that, like when defending a ramp or pretty much anytime you engage a bio ball early to mid game, if your army spreads out, it will get stim-a moved and evaporate. Colossus are getting hard countered by vikings, corruptors, and neural parasite. When a zerg fungals the death ball, there is nothing protoss can do but watch, it stops your air, your blink, pulling your colossus back.

Also, the cost to get blink and charge are absurd if you compare them to any other upgrades for zerg or terrans early units. For example the cost to get twilight and charge is the same as a terran getting a tech lab + stim + combat shield + concussive. The stalker is a huge issue too, toss has to use them, but their long cooldown combined with only getting +1 per upgrade means that the more upgrades terran or zerg gets the worse stalkers scale against them. When you realize that 1 stalker has a slightly lower dps than a single UNstimmed marine, and that they can afford almost 4 marines for the cost of 1 stalker, or that roaches can me made almost 2 to 1 for cost and scale better with upgrades it makes it clear that stalkers are terrible for their cost. Colossus have become a liability for protoss in many ways as well because of the continuing trend towards macro heavy play and macro maps. Colossus slow down the protoss army, and they must be protected, and for you opponent they are always expected. It gets very difficult to defend your bases after the 3rd because protoss can't just throw units away and it's very hard to split your army and deal with threats at multiple locations cost effectively.

Then there are issues with unit counters, hydras are excellent against zealots and stalkers, but they also rape immortals and voids. MM does great against zealots and stalkers, but marines also rape voids and immortals. But toss needs obs so the only safe and logical option is colossus.

As it is, protoss has to back its self into a corner or choke and use FF and Colossus so the range of its units can make its dps higher than the front line their opponents, but it has slowly been figured out how to deal with FF's and Colossus. The protoss army gets crushed $ for $ to almost anything without FF, and colossus.

I have little hope that any of this will be corrected until HOTS. I think there are core design issues with protoss that require the addition of units and abilities, or the removal of some from other races for the issue to be worked out.

FF are absolutely at the base of all the problems, they are too strong in some situations. But once the opponent has a tech to make them ineffective toss is really handicapped. I think the same is true for colossus.



BTW this whole argument that all the toss players are just not as good as the other races players is complete bullshit. It's just like how Terran has had better tourney results than toss and zerg combined and had 40-50% of the top 200 throughout Sc2's history and people say "well that just means that better players choose terran" If you honestly believe it works like that, your logic is so flawed it makes 99% of what you say worth ignoring.

On June 04 2011 05:08 Severian wrote:

I'm not sure if you're trolling here. You've managed to mischaracterize what I said, misstate a fact, state something that doesn't make sense mathematically and call me mentally ill, all in the one sentence.

The winrate wasn't reduced by 50%. It was reduced to 50%.

I don't find that amazing. I find it pretty expected given that your statement that Protosses win 66% of PvZs is obviously a load of crap.

Logically, the winrate should drop by a relatively small amount in the second round as there are fewer games to influence the number (unless there were, due to luck of the draw, an abnormally small number of PvZs in the first round). 66%->50% isn't a large drop (even though Protosses didn't win any PvZs!), but it is a drop and it makes your number false. Accept that.


Expand on this, please. Ultralisks cost 6 Banelings' worth of minerals, 8 Banelings' worth of gas, and 12 Banelings' worth of supply.

On June 04 2011 05:26 elitesniper420 wrote:Also Banelings in terms of supply cost 100 gas more when 6 supply of Banelings is compared with Ultralisks. Hardly efficient against any Protoss that knows how to micro, this thread makes it seem like Protoss are entitled to never split their deathball.

On June 04 2011 05:44 VTPerfect wrote:
(deleted, sorry can't say anything)