Protoss at the GSL - Page 13

On June 04 2011 03:46 Reborn8u wrote:
I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread, some the comments would only make sense 6 months ago. With the buffs to zerg and nerfs to toss along with lingering undressed issues, protoss is not what it once was. I personally think that the nerfs designed to "fix" pvp, put protoss over the tipping point and have hurt toss greatly in every matchup. A 4 gate rush in pvp is still hard to stop if you don't have 4 gates, but in the other matchups I don't think it's that people can't win by 4 gating but that the threat isn't there. I loved 4 gating zergs, but it was razor thin whether or not it held and game deciding. With that threat being 20 seconds later, it is 2x easier for zerg to hold. Also, that 20 seconds also means that when a protoss 3gate expands against zerg they only have 3 or 4 units and warp isn't done when they want to put down the nexus. Just setting back every potential warp in 20 seconds has opened the door for zergs to deny the natural. Meanwhile zerg can expand at 15 food and toss can't do anything but try to force a few units early instead of drones.

Another issue for protoss in every matchup is that protoss is very reliant on FF's and Colossus. When zergs deal with FF's by doing bane drops or roach burrow, it looks like most protoss's (at least that I've seen) don't have any answer. Terrans are getting emp earlier and 1 good emp is GG, people say "spread out your units" but there are situations where you can't do that, like when defending a ramp or pretty much anytime you engage a bio ball early to mid game, if your army spreads out, it will get stim-a moved and evaporate. Colossus are getting hard countered by vikings, corruptors, and neural parasite. When a zerg fungals the death ball, there is nothing protoss can do but watch, it stops your air, your blink, pulling your colossus back.

Also, the cost to get blink and charge are absurd if you compare them to any other upgrades for zerg or terrans early units. For example the cost to get twilight and charge is the same as a terran getting a tech lab + stim + combat shield + concussive. The stalker is a huge issue too, toss has to use them, but their long cooldown combined with only getting +1 per upgrade means that the more upgrades terran or zerg gets the worse stalkers scale against them. When you realize that 1 stalker has a slightly lower dps than a single UNstimmed marine, and that they can afford almost 4 marines for the cost of 1 stalker, or that roaches can me made almost 2 to 1 for cost and scale better with upgrades it makes it clear that stalkers are terrible for their cost. Colossus have become a liability for protoss in many ways as well because of the continuing trend towards macro heavy play and macro maps. Colossus slow down the protoss army, and they must be protected, and for you opponent they are always expected. It gets very difficult to defend your bases after the 3rd because protoss can't just throw units away and it's very hard to split your army and deal with threats at multiple locations cost effectively.

Then there are issues with unit counters, hydras are excellent against zealots and stalkers, but they also rape immortals and voids. MM does great against zealots and stalkers, but marines also rape voids and immortals. But toss needs obs so the only safe and logical option is colossus.

As it is, protoss has to back its self into a corner or choke and use FF and Colossus so the range of its units can make its dps higher than the front line their opponents, but it has slowly been figured out how to deal with FF's and Colossus. The protoss army gets crushed $ for $ to almost anything without FF, and colossus.

I have little hope that any of this will be corrected until HOTS. I think there are core design issues with protoss that require the addition of units and abilities, or the removal of some from other races for the issue to be worked out.

FF are absolutely at the base of all the problems, they are too strong in some situations. But once the opponent has a tech to make them ineffective toss is really handicapped. I think the same is true for colossus.



BTW this whole argument that all the toss players are just not as good as the other races players is complete bullshit. It's just like how Terran has had better tourney results than toss and zerg combined and had 40-50% of the top 200 throughout Sc2's history and people say "well that just means that better players choose terran" If you honestly believe it works like that, your logic is so flawed it makes 99% of what you say worth ignoring.

On June 04 2011 06:56 David Dark wrote:
Same thing all over again, just with a different race.

I think it's normal, players come with some unstoppable tactic, ppl copy it, that race owns all, players come up with a way to counter it and that race sucks. Soon some other race wil suck and other will have the upper hand. Give this game some time to grow up.

On June 04 2011 07:22 windsupernova wrote:
*sigh* This happens every single time a race starts having trouble.

Strategies changed, now P need to adapt.

Sad thing is that every of this threads people claim that their race is badly designed and that they are not viable blah blah.

On June 04 2011 07:21 ScythedBlade wrote:
Stalkers vs Roach needs to be fixed. There's no reason that Stalkers should cost almost twice as much as roaches for just the ability to hit air, where there aren't that many air units in the game that will bother you ... >=(

On June 04 2011 07:23 Cthun wrote:



I never claimed that.

On June 04 2011 06:53 2GRe-Play- wrote:



I was almost crying reading this, thanks for putting this together. i hope blizzard can help our hopeless race!

On June 04 2011 03:13 ScythedBlade wrote:


It's been proven that Protoss is the worst race. If you use perfect micro AI (some guy who actually programmed it), Protoss finishes dead last. The real fact is that more QQ players play zerg.

The only thing preventing Protoss players right now from doing extremely bad is that players have not reached anywhere near the skill ceiling, but Protoss has been mostly figured out. (Essentially because the possibility branching tree for Protoss is always less deep than the other two races.)

Protoss is still the best race just bad players

Zerg is not OP, and never has or will be. I feel like there just aren't many great korean protoss besides MC and Alicia. Zerg has Nestea, July, Losira, and some great up-and-comers like DRG and Min. And there are just a dickload of terran players, all with great potential (slayers, anyone?) that it makes the rest of the toss seem comparatively lack-luster.

if you look at results only it looks bad. but if you watched the games, they played horribly.

Protoss best race

the strategy's are very easy to execute for toss right now the only thing that makes things different with players is just mechanic's/micro.

Do switch to zerg. There is the unforgiving larva inject mechanism and the constant dilemma to drone or make army units, which tosses don't have to deal with. Switch and see how easy it is. As for me, whenever I get random protoss, all I have to do is turtle for 90% of the game and then a-move. Scouting - optional for protoss, necessary for zerg (or else you'll overdrone, underdrone, or make the wrong counters).
It just takes half as much effort into the game whenever I roll terran or toss.

this, why don't you just do it ? before posting a slightly disguised imba-whine thread?

for the playerbase protoss has in gsl ( i think they suck mostly ) they are doing extremely well

protoss players are really really bad as far as I can tell. resorting to all ins/gimmicky plays

Well, don't tell me protoss don"'t have the tools to win.
It's just, korean don't have a lot of good protoss in my opinion.

To me Korean toss players always seemed inferior to their terran and zerg brothers. So it's no wonder that they started to lose in the end.

protoss still wins 66% against zerg you retards. protoss is just a flawed race where the best zerg can't do anything but the protoss can't win against terran because protoss is so easy they can't find a way to improve their play. if anything blizzard needs to remove the race from the game because P matchups are always boring, so much so that T can only go MMM and Z can only make roaches, unless it's some cutesy timing push or coinflip strat

Go ahead. You won't last 5 games.

Do it. You'll realise how good you Protoss have it and switch back.

Go ahead and do it, you still wont be playing the hardest race.

Protoss goes through one patch where they cant 1-a, and suddenly all the tosses start whining.

Saying that they wanna switch to zerg, its really funny.. Because the style u have to play to beat a protoss is insanely hard. Requires a metric tonne of multitasking and lots and lots of bases. Constantly reinforcing with diffrent types of army etc.. Not as easy as it looks... Whereas protoss can still win 50% of their games with a 3 base turtle into deathball.

what units do you rely on the most? Colossus and Sentries. One unit is a-click and the other is F spam. Yes, Sentries actually do take some skill to use, but that is really the only thing you can improve upon as you get better and even then it's incredibly simplistic. The entire deathball mechanic also pretty much gets rid of any use for positioning apart from zealots at front at your one big control group.

On June 04 2011 03:04 Duoma wrote:


This is generally pretty true.

Outside of MC, Alicia, and some flashes of brilliance from San, the korean scene does not have many consistent or interesting protoss players.

Ace and Squirtle have failed to make a splash in the korean scene thus far, Anypro Tester and SangHo have all been inconsistent in performance and rarely bring anything interesting to the table.

I think it's pretty safe to say there has been no Protoss "hero" akin to MVP or Nestea. Sure, MC is likely the most successful player(winning-wise) to come out of Korea, but he hasn't revolutionized the race so much as just doing everything better.

Tl;dr: OP, inconsistent protoss performance is business as usual in the GSL.

On June 04 2011 07:49 Darclite wrote:
























After someone said they wanted to switch to zerg:












So what do I want? Forget the patches for the moment, I'm stick of being called unskilled by zerg players who have NO understanding whatsoever of protoss mechanics, and use Idra as their basis for claiming that they are underpowered. The best is that they talk about how easy force fielding is (im not saying it is hard, but one pixel left opened nullifies them) but then say that larva injecting is hard. Your race is not hard. Neither is mine, neither is terran.

And can we stop with the whole protoss players suck argument. It makes no sense.

And claiming that zergs stopped qqing is a joke. Scroll up.