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On June 04 2011 15:45 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 15:14 PeggyHill wrote:
To be honest I always thought MC was slightly overrated, he seemed to rely on early 4/6 gate timing pushes, sometimes with the nexus cancel. Always seemed cheap to me. Not saying he isn't great, but people are correct when they say he isn't the hero that toss needs.
I think the point about the forge FE being difficult due to open naturals is a good one, BW the maps seemed to be designed so that this build could be done. In SC2 so many maps the forge FE is just too eaisly abused.
I think what we saw in SC2 was the first great transition from the original Blizz maps, ie Steppes etc into better maps like Tal'Darim etc. We are just waiting for the second generation to hit before we can see the game evolve further, at the mo it's just stagnant. Too many toss died to roach bust with forge FE.
Same thing happens in BW with mass hydra busts. If you have a natural choke you can place all the cannons at the front and all the cannons will be doing damage. Problem with open naturals is that roaches can kite around the side, meaning you need twice as many cannons to defend your natural.
That means if Zerg is gonna do a roach bust, the more narrow the choke the more all-in the bust has to be. Meaning that pros are less inclined to do it, because defending it means free win for toss.
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On June 05 2011 01:41 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 01:28 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:58 2GRe-Play- wrote:On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can. have u ever play Protoss? Protoss cant afford going Stargate play vs Terran, they will just all in u in the midgame un cant go stargate route cause protoss need AOE = Collosus we cant waste gas on other things. Man, Terran tech path is Natural because Starport is part of their build, Zerg Tech path is Natural because lair = hydra,spire,infetor pit. Protoss have to go ROBO, STARGATE OR ARCHIVE OR DARKSHIRE. do u see the difference? and the best of them is ROBO so thats why u cant go Stargate You probably didnt realize that "Starport is part of their build" is a pretty stupid excuse. You could just as well make the Stargate part of your build. Bio-Terrans have to build a Factory just to be able to make a Starport, so stop the whine about the cost please ... its YOUR choice to make. People have complained about the 1/1/1 build being so versatile from Terrans, but they refuse to do the same for their race. Zerg have refused to build Spine Crawlers and more Queens than they have hatcheries and it took Spanishiwa to convice a lot of people who were stuck in their mantras that it actually can work. IdrA claimed to have "tried everything" against Protoss death balls long ago, but still Zerg have figured out how to beat Protoss (even before the recent buffs). People who claim things not going to work just havent tried enough IMO ... or to quote Lawrence of Arabia: NOTHING is written!Just as a suggestion you could even save some of your own Sentries from Banelings with your Phoenixes ... just to save your invested gas. Be creative ... Actually logistically you cant go all the tech trees. Off one base you can support one stargate void ray and one robo immortal making only those two units and chronoboosting them if you make correct pylons. Once in a while you can warp One zealot. Thats not a good unit composition and is very small thanks to the high gas cost. Just pointing out that I think everyone in this thread needs to sit back and take a breather and stop flaming eachother. Just theorycrafting "OMG! PPL SAY X ABOUT Z BUT ITS NOT TRUE NOW DO SOMETHING WITH TOSS LIKE THIS TERRAN BuiLD BUT THE PROTOSS EQUIVALENT!!!" Relax all reading this thread makes me sad since any real discussion about how toss is performing in the GSL has turned into QQ and flaming between the different races. :/
Indeed it has, this thread isn't going to get any better, it is just a shout box for gold league players right now. It is like those the threads on FF/Colossus, at the end of the day nothing has come of it and it is pretty evident that neither of those things are overpowered given the current state of this game.
Though it is amusing to watch how valiantly some people still want to keep their facade about Protoss alive, even trying to say that Terran and Zerg players are just better, which is hilarious, but it is starting to crumble  If things don't get better for Protoss in the next month then I'm sure the topics about balance and zerg being "faceroll" will arise, it is going to be fun watching the people who screamed so loudly about Protoss being "OP" come to defend their own race ^^ Watching the shit storm when the tables have turned ain't so bad 
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On June 05 2011 01:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 00:58 2GRe-Play- wrote:On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can. have u ever play Protoss? Protoss cant afford going Stargate play vs Terran, they will just all in u in the midgame un cant go stargate route cause protoss need AOE = Collosus we cant waste gas on other things. Man, Terran tech path is Natural because Starport is part of their build, Zerg Tech path is Natural because lair = hydra,spire,infetor pit. Protoss have to go ROBO, STARGATE OR ARCHIVE OR DARKSHIRE. do u see the difference? and the best of them is ROBO so thats why u cant go Stargate You probably didnt realize that "Starport is part of their build" is a pretty stupid excuse. You could just as well make the Stargate part of your build. Bio-Terrans have to build a Factory just to be able to make a Starport, so stop the whine about the cost please ... its YOUR choice to make. People have complained about the 1/1/1 build being so versatile from Terrans, but they refuse to do the same for their race. Zerg have refused to build Spine Crawlers and more Queens than they have hatcheries and it took Spanishiwa to convice a lot of people who were stuck in their mantras that it actually can work. IdrA claimed to have "tried everything" against Protoss death balls long ago, but still Zerg have figured out how to beat Protoss (even before the recent buffs). People who claim things not going to work just havent tried enough IMO ... or to quote Lawrence of Arabia: NOTHING is written!Just as a suggestion you could even save some of your own Sentries from Banelings with your Phoenixes ... just to save your invested gas. Be creative ...
Gateway/stargate units are too weak and gas intense, you can't afford that vs Terran b/c Medic and Vikings cost just a few gas and marauders cost only 25 gas. See the differences yet ? Also you need units that has AOE, that is Templar or Colossus, and you know how much they cost.
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Anyone else still encounter zerg on ladder, who say "Toss is Imba!"
SO MANY ZERGS, have the mindset, that protoss is completely overpowered, and when they mass roach infestors and win badly, they will blame the player; and if you try to explain the current state of the game, they still have the mindset from 2-3 months ago that "toss has forcefields so they're imbalanced"
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On June 05 2011 01:51 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 01:41 ZeromuS wrote:On June 05 2011 01:28 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:58 2GRe-Play- wrote:On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can. have u ever play Protoss? Protoss cant afford going Stargate play vs Terran, they will just all in u in the midgame un cant go stargate route cause protoss need AOE = Collosus we cant waste gas on other things. Man, Terran tech path is Natural because Starport is part of their build, Zerg Tech path is Natural because lair = hydra,spire,infetor pit. Protoss have to go ROBO, STARGATE OR ARCHIVE OR DARKSHIRE. do u see the difference? and the best of them is ROBO so thats why u cant go Stargate You probably didnt realize that "Starport is part of their build" is a pretty stupid excuse. You could just as well make the Stargate part of your build. Bio-Terrans have to build a Factory just to be able to make a Starport, so stop the whine about the cost please ... its YOUR choice to make. People have complained about the 1/1/1 build being so versatile from Terrans, but they refuse to do the same for their race. Zerg have refused to build Spine Crawlers and more Queens than they have hatcheries and it took Spanishiwa to convice a lot of people who were stuck in their mantras that it actually can work. IdrA claimed to have "tried everything" against Protoss death balls long ago, but still Zerg have figured out how to beat Protoss (even before the recent buffs). People who claim things not going to work just havent tried enough IMO ... or to quote Lawrence of Arabia: NOTHING is written!Just as a suggestion you could even save some of your own Sentries from Banelings with your Phoenixes ... just to save your invested gas. Be creative ... Actually logistically you cant go all the tech trees. Off one base you can support one stargate void ray and one robo immortal making only those two units and chronoboosting them if you make correct pylons. Once in a while you can warp One zealot. Thats not a good unit composition and is very small thanks to the high gas cost. Just pointing out that I think everyone in this thread needs to sit back and take a breather and stop flaming eachother. Just theorycrafting "OMG! PPL SAY X ABOUT Z BUT ITS NOT TRUE NOW DO SOMETHING WITH TOSS LIKE THIS TERRAN BuiLD BUT THE PROTOSS EQUIVALENT!!!" Relax all reading this thread makes me sad since any real discussion about how toss is performing in the GSL has turned into QQ and flaming between the different races. :/ Indeed it has, this thread isn't going to get any better, it is just a shout box for gold league players right now. It is like those the threads on FF/Colossus, at the end of the day nothing has come of it and it is pretty evident that neither of those things are overpowered given the current state of this game. Though it is amusing to watch how valiantly some people still want to keep their facade about Protoss alive, even trying to say that Terran and Zerg players are just better, which is hilarious, but it is starting to crumble If things don't get better for Protoss in the next month then I'm sure the topics about balance and zerg being "faceroll" will arise, it is going to be fun watching the people who screamed so loudly about Protoss being "OP" come to defend their own race ^^ Watching the shit storm when the tables have turned ain't so bad
Well, the one that proposed specific changes and requested a baneling and infestor nerf was a master's league player...
Besides, I don't really see that much QQ in it. But in all honesty: Do you really believe that PvZ is the same? It has changed and it has gotten pretty difficult. I don't know why adressing this and debating what could be done about it is bad. But you are right in the matter that I don't really see anyone proposing an ingame solution to get this discussion forward.
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The early collusus build doesn't seem like a viable strategy anymore. Don't get me wrong it is still good, but z and t are able to isolate it hard. The templar first into collusus seems like a more potent flavor of the month for toss.
Thoughts?
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
Rabiator
You probably didnt realize that "Starport is part of their build" is a pretty stupid excuse. You could just as well make the Stargate part of your build. Bio-Terrans have to build a Factory just to be able to make a Starport, so stop the whine about the cost please ... its YOUR choice to make.
People have complained about the 1/1/1 build being so versatile from Terrans, but they refuse to do the same for their race. Zerg have refused to build Spine Crawlers and more Queens than they have hatcheries and it took Spanishiwa to convice a lot of people who were stuck in their mantras that it actually can work. IdrA claimed to have "tried everything" against Protoss death balls long ago, but still Zerg have figured out how to beat Protoss (even before the recent buffs). People who claim things not going to work just havent tried enough IMO ... or to quote Lawrence of Arabia: NOTHING is written!
Just as a suggestion you could even save some of your own Sentries from Banelings with your Phoenixes ... just to save your invested gas. Be creative ...
dont make nosense statement, what u get from Starport is way better than what u get from stargate
Phoenix? loooool, terran just need to make more marines and do a timming push and phoenix wont save u, u havent play protoss man,
why Pros dont make more phoenix? have u ever think on that?
Why every player that switch race never go from Terran to P or Zerg to P??? is the other way arround, Protoss at high level is so difficult to win with them.
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On June 05 2011 02:12 Catchafire2000 wrote:
The early collusus build doesn't seem like a viable strategy anymore. Don't get me wrong it is still good, but z and t are able to isolate it hard. The templar first into collusus seems like a more potent flavor of the month for toss.
Thoughts?
Yes against Terran, no against Zerg.
Against Terran you can do a lot of containing using DTs and aggressively expanding until the T has a Raven or ghosts out. Terran units also aren't as mobile unless they stim so you get the map control. DTs and HTs are also great against drops.
Zerg units are too mobile and an overseer too easily accessible for early templar. Storm's AoE also doesn't cover an entire choke like it did in BW anymore to deter busts. Burrowed roaches are also too popular to not open robo. Without you cannot create (the illusion) of pressure.
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On June 05 2011 01:52 MK_Shao wrote:
Anyone else still encounter zerg on ladder, who say "Toss is Imba!"
SO MANY ZERGS, have the mindset, that protoss is completely overpowered, and when they mass roach infestors and win badly, they will blame the player; and if you try to explain the current state of the game, they still have the mindset from 2-3 months ago that "toss has forcefields so they're imbalanced"
This will never be change. Even Terrans insult me a lot for playing the "OP" or the "best" race. I think from their perspective its just easier to say "I am only not that good because I play the weaker race".
About the HT first. This is still risky and does only work like the most other things a Toss can do, you have to prevent the Zerg from scouting it. Because if the Zerg sees this, he just have to push with a lot of roaches and your screwed.
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On June 05 2011 01:52 MK_Shao wrote:
Anyone else still encounter zerg on ladder, who say "Toss is Imba!"
SO MANY ZERGS, have the mindset, that protoss is completely overpowered, and when they mass roach infestors and win badly, they will blame the player; and if you try to explain the current state of the game, they still have the mindset from 2-3 months ago that "toss has forcefields so they're imbalanced"
Same happend to me today. " I think Toss Lategame is so overpowered!"...after stomping the Zerg player with Mass Stalker /Sentry plus Colossi and Voids. His main failure: One failed early Roach attack at my ramp and then macro up like crazy but doesn't intend to attack me for 20 minutes.
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On June 04 2011 02:57 Joseph123 wrote:
well protoss has never been doing well in the GSL only MC has did
so..
What incredible grammar usage. "Only MC has done did won in that there GSL"
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On June 05 2011 01:52 MK_Shao wrote:
Anyone else still encounter zerg on ladder, who say "Toss is Imba!"
SO MANY ZERGS, have the mindset, that protoss is completely overpowered, and when they mass roach infestors and win badly, they will blame the player; and if you try to explain the current state of the game, they still have the mindset from 2-3 months ago that "toss has forcefields so they're imbalanced"
They will keep doing it if you keep making a huge deal every time it happens.
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On June 05 2011 01:28 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2011 00:58 2GRe-Play- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can. have u ever play Protoss? Protoss cant afford going Stargate play vs Terran, they will just all in u in the midgame un cant go stargate route cause protoss need AOE = Collosus we cant waste gas on other things. Man, Terran tech path is Natural because Starport is part of their build, Zerg Tech path is Natural because lair = hydra,spire,infetor pit. Protoss have to go ROBO, STARGATE OR ARCHIVE OR DARKSHIRE. do u see the difference? and the best of them is ROBO so thats why u cant go Stargate You probably didnt realize that "Starport is part of their build" is a pretty stupid excuse. You could just as well make the Stargate part of your build. Bio-Terrans have to build a Factory just to be able to make a Starport, so stop the whine about the cost please ... its YOUR choice to make. People have complained about the 1/1/1 build being so versatile from Terrans, but they refuse to do the same for their race. Zerg have refused to build Spine Crawlers and more Queens than they have hatcheries and it took Spanishiwa to convice a lot of people who were stuck in their mantras that it actually can work. IdrA claimed to have "tried everything" against Protoss death balls long ago, but still Zerg have figured out how to beat Protoss (even before the recent buffs). People who claim things not going to work just havent tried enough IMO ... or to quote Lawrence of Arabia: NOTHING is written!Just as a suggestion you could even save some of your own Sentries from Banelings with your Phoenixes ... just to save your invested gas. Be creative ...
Subtle troll is subtle. You seem to purposefully ignore how many of the standard choices by the other races shape toss Tech decisions. 2 tech paths at once is very very expensive and very risky to go for. Partic because it really eats into the gateway count and gateway units require a lot of micro/spellcasters to come out ahead against masses of other race units.
The toss tech tree is not analogous to the Terran one.
And Hell we haven't even begun to discuss the upgrade battle and scaling...
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On June 05 2011 00:50 Frequencyy wrote:
This slump of toss players has nothing to do with balance, I'm not going to talk about balance but I assure you protoss isn't on the short end of the stick. It's simply their players must be in a slump, or they aren't developing their race fast enough, maybe getting a deathball and push style should be changed up. In Broodwar protoss would be on the constant aggression, dropping reavers, hts, dts, harassing with corsairs. There are a ton of good underused units in the arsenal that protoss has.
Well the boldfaced part doesn't really make much sense.
I like what you said about the aggression, and in the spirit of exploring rather than qqing, I think about new ways to pressure. But what possible ways can pressure be done that haven't been explored? Blink has been done and is handleable, warp prisms are rarely effective (zealots too inefficient, templar and immortal drops too expensive considering the risk), phoenixes are good if you have a lot of them and there isn't any static defense, but a couple of spores or turrets take them down, and it takes a while to get 6-8 phoenixes, void rays are a heavy commitment and have a similar problem to phoenixes, etc.)
As far as the "good underused units" that really isn't true imo. Units used the least are warp prisms, immortals, carriers, and motherships. Warp prisms are too expensive, take up robo time, and fail against an opponent with map awareness. Immortals are decent actually, something could be worked around them, i don't know what though (Blizzard even said that they didn't serve the purpose they were supposed to, tanking damage). Carriers...do I have to explain? Easily countered, late tech, expensive as hell, slow as hell, take forever to build, etc. Mothership isn't too good without vortex, mass recall is better in theory than in practice (because motherships aren't sneaky lol) and cloak is good, but still, slow, weird tech, long build time, expensive, etc.
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On June 05 2011 02:35 Moldwood wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 02:57 Joseph123 wrote:
well protoss has never been doing well in the GSL only MC has did
so.. What incredible grammar usage. "Only MC has done did won in that there GSL"
I would like you talk in his language, mr.ignorant.
Not everyone is from teh bestest country in teh world.
you understood what he was saying, what's your problem?
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This thread is the reasons why Koreans will always be better than the foreigners, lulz.
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On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:
IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can.
And Zergs were fine during the post-release 5 Rax Reaper era, they just needed to use more Nydus, right?
If you want to believe Protoss players aren't experimenting enough with harass-based play, that's fine. It's probably true to some extent. But seriously, just spare us these laughable suggestions. One some points you are simply wrong, on some you're arguing in favor of stuff that's already happening (Phoenix/Colossus), and the double Immortal Warp Prism drop to snipe reactors on Starports is just hilariously outlandish.
It's also kind of funny how the move you use as an example of your "cost-efficiency doesn't matter" idea, 24 banelings to bust a PF, is only really attempted when the Zerg is significantly ahead, and even then it's considered risky.
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On June 05 2011 02:43 Shooks wrote:
This thread is the reasons why Koreans will always be better than the foreigners, lulz.
TSL.
Bye.
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On June 05 2011 02:53 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 02:43 Shooks wrote:
This thread is the reasons why Koreans will always be better than the foreigners, lulz. TSL. Bye.
Online tournaments mean nothing. Koreans are definitely better than foreigners. There is no competition.
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On June 05 2011 03:08 XenocideFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 02:53 Hypemeup wrote:On June 05 2011 02:43 Shooks wrote:
This thread is the reasons why Koreans will always be better than the foreigners, lulz. TSL. Bye. Online tournaments mean nothing. Koreans are definitely better than foreigners. There is no competition.
Good thing considering all the Korean heavy hitters were not affected by lag in TSL. Nice try though 
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EPT
