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On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:
IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage?
You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again.
One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro.
So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive.
So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can.
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Why would you ever compare Medivas and Phoenixes???
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On June 05 2011 00:34 Binabik wrote:
MC is going to win the MLG, he's playing insane at the moment.
I really want to see he play idra again, i hope he win, don't like idra. i think MC or MMA are the only ones that can defeat Idra (i don't see naniwa defeating idra)
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This is also slightly odd. Baneling bombs on min lines aren't really an issue. Proper minimap attention and reaction time negates these so much. Banelings TvZ is also a non-issue. Current TvZ issues more revolve around the infestors ability to crush non split marines and deal with any form of mech. People are slowing getting better at dealing with them though.
Baneling bombing in PvZ has been around for awhile and it seems quite nice. Proper blink control, target firing and splitting negates them quite a lot. The combination of fungal and baneling bombs is quite effective though.
Sure baneling's on mineral lines arent an issue if your sitting in your base..... alot of people use them during battles, or while you out on the map, you cant ALWAYS be starring at your mini map, even pro players let banelings go off on min line, sometimes, its almost unavoidable.
Also, look at storm drop, if you lose that (which you probably will if they have air) Is a huge cost, while the current baneling drop cost can almost be as effective for almost 25% of the cost + tech.
MC is going to win the MLG, he's playing insane at the moment.
To bad MC is better then Idra, and MC got slapped like it's noones business. MC even had perfect FF in game 1 ANd denied a huge drop in the main, but the 1a of Idra was to strong!
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On June 05 2011 00:40 MK_Shao wrote:Show nested quote +This is also slightly odd. Baneling bombs on min lines aren't really an issue. Proper minimap attention and reaction time negates these so much. Banelings TvZ is also a non-issue. Current TvZ issues more revolve around the infestors ability to crush non split marines and deal with any form of mech. People are slowing getting better at dealing with them though.
Baneling bombing in PvZ has been around for awhile and it seems quite nice. Proper blink control, target firing and splitting negates them quite a lot. The combination of fungal and baneling bombs is quite effective though. Sure baneling's on mineral lines arent an issue if your sitting in your base..... alot of people use them during battles, or while you out on the map, you cant ALWAYS be starring at your mini map, even pro players let banelings go off on min line, sometimes, its almost unavoidable. Also, look at storm drop, if you lose that (which you probably will if they have air) Is a huge cost, while the current baneling drop cost can almost be as effective for almost 25% of the cost + tech. To bad MC is better then Idra, and MC got slapped like it's noones business. MC even had perfect FF in game 1 ANd denied a huge drop in the main, but the 1a of Idra was to strong!
So you are saying they don't have the multitasking in order to deal with something and thus that thing should be changed? You could make similar arguments for medivac drops mid battle.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
as i said before,
1- blizzard needs to make Medivac heal or transport an upgrade option.
2- Banelings should cost more minerals
3- roaches should cost 90minerals not 75 or maybe makes them +1 instead of +2
4- infestor are so fu^$%* op
5- make stalkers have a change vs marauders and roaches
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This slump of toss players has nothing to do with balance, I'm not going to talk about balance but I assure you protoss isn't on the short end of the stick. It's simply their players must be in a slump, or they aren't developing their race fast enough, maybe getting a deathball and push style should be changed up. In Broodwar protoss would be on the constant aggression, dropping reavers, hts, dts, harassing with corsairs. There are a ton of good underused units in the arsenal that protoss has.
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Obviously if a bunch tossplayer loses, P is underpowered, right? Oh wait
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On June 05 2011 00:38 Binabik wrote:
Why would you ever compare Medivas and Phoenixes???
Its just an example how an AIR UNIT can add something new to the Protoss army .... just like the Medivacs add something new to the Terran bio army.
Just refuse to get Stargate units and be inable to kill Overlords who are scouting your base from cliffs OR who might be dropping your base. Its stupid to allow your opponent to have something for free like the vision a Zerg can get with Overlords. You cant follow them everywhere with your Gateway units and Phoenixes are the fastest Protoss units to control the map. If a Zerg has no Hydras / Infestors around you can pick up anything from his army. If a Terran likes his Marauders too much the Tanks and Medivacs are juicy targets to kill.
The whole point I am trying to make is to "forget everything you know and start from zero". Everything you have set in stone should always be questioned.
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I don't know if unit tweaking is the right way to go. It has been done by Blizz in the past so many times changing things over and over again. I would lean a bit more towards making some stuff for Protoss more accessable.
I bet that getting rid of the darkshrine and make DTs available from the Archives could be one thing to work out pretty nicely. If you combine it with a Robo it would open up drop options and give Protoss a nice possibility to harass and control the map. Along with it you get Blink or charge and can research Psi-Storm. Might hurt PvT a lot though...
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can.
have u ever play Protoss? Protoss cant afford going Stargate play vs Terran, they will just all in u
in the midgame un cant go stargate route cause protoss need AOE = Collosus we cant waste gas on other things.
Man, Terran tech path is Natural because Starport is part of their build, Zerg Tech path is Natural because lair = hydra,spire,infetor pit.
Protoss have to go ROBO, STARGATE OR ARCHIVE OR DARKSHIRE.
do u see the difference? and the best of them is ROBO so thats why u cant go Stargate
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On June 04 2011 02:57 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 02:56 alone wrote:
Its more like protoss players did not play their best...atleast in the games I watched (not every toss game) when protoss loses, they are playing bad. when zerg loses, its to imbalance. TT
So true. Why is that that all zerg players do is complain about race imbalance when zerg pros do badly in a tournament, but when protoss players are being eliminated left and right, it is due to them "not playing well"?
And since when did MC "not play well"? He is undoubtedly one of the best players in the world atm.
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On June 05 2011 00:56 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 00:38 Binabik wrote:
Why would you ever compare Medivas and Phoenixes??? Its just an example how an AIR UNIT can add something new to the Protoss army .... just like the Medivacs add something new to the Terran bio army. Just refuse to get Stargate units and be inable to kill Overlords who are scouting your base from cliffs OR who might be dropping your base. Its stupid to allow your opponent to have something for free like the vision a Zerg can get with Overlords. You cant follow them everywhere with your Gateway units and Phoenixes are the fastest Protoss units to control the map. If a Zerg has no Hydras / Infestors around you can pick up anything from his army. If a Terran likes his Marauders too much the Tanks and Medivacs are juicy targets to kill. The whole point I am trying to make is to "forget everything you know and start from zero". Everything you have set in stone should always be questioned.
This approach seems reasonable. I am not a good player at all but I tried airplay and it is very situational.
First of all, I think it is only really viable if you go forge FE which is only possible on 2 ladder maps.
And even then you really have to do A LOT of damage to make it worth the investment since you will have to switch to HTs or Colossi. And I tell you: I have been punished really bad for going Stargate. Sure, sometimes you can really screw a Zerg but only if they actually did not prepare for it. That means that they invested in Roaches instead of queens or hive tech in time and have no evo chamber already up.
So yeah, u might say: Well scout what he is going for. And ta-da: There you got the next problem:
Scouting. When Zerglings are out and have speed, you can't scout until hallucination or an Obs is out.
This is somehow a problem when it comes to applying pressure to a Zerg which you HAVE to do as a Protoss.
Imagine you go 3gate expand. Zerg can respond in two different ways: Either drone or go for a roach/ling bust. If you go 3 gate expand you won't have Hallu or Obs in time to really see what Zerg is doing.
So you as toss can do 2 things: Stay in your base and prepare for an all-in that might never come or move out and fake pressure, which is good when Zerg decides to drone, but which backfires pretty hard if Zerg goes for agression. Then you might actually lose your sentries or waste a ton of force fields.
Coinflip scenario - you Zergs know this situation too well.
I don't have too much issues in PvZ if I can forge FE and delay a Zergs expansion a bit by blocking it, but other than that I am really clueless on finding a balance between staying alive and prevent the Zerg from droning like crazy.
Oh well, I will try some more DT action. 250 gas for a one purpose building aint that much of a deal 
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On June 04 2011 23:33 crabz wrote:
mods must play protoss otherwise i see no reason why this bs topic filled with whine of bronze players would be still open
Incredibly constructive.
OT: I don't think it'll be impossible to balance but the mechanics are incredibly clunky so it'll be hard to balance fluently around - protoss revolves around a few huge mechanics like forcefields, colossi, etc. Any change to them is automatically pretty big in a balancing sense, so it'll always be a bit clunky design.
Honestly for HOTS I'd love if warpgates got redesigned, as well as forcefields/colossus.
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On June 05 2011 00:58 2GRe-Play- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can. have u ever play Protoss? Protoss cant afford going Stargate play vs Terran, they will just all in u in the midgame un cant go stargate route cause protoss need AOE = Collosus we cant waste gas on other things. Man, Terran tech path is Natural because Starport is part of their build, Zerg Tech path is Natural because lair = hydra,spire,infetor pit. Protoss have to go ROBO, STARGATE OR ARCHIVE OR DARKSHIRE. do u see the difference? and the best of them is ROBO so thats why u cant go Stargate
You probably didnt realize that "Starport is part of their build" is a pretty stupid excuse. You could just as well make the Stargate part of your build. Bio-Terrans have to build a Factory just to be able to make a Starport, so stop the whine about the cost please ... its YOUR choice to make.
People have complained about the 1/1/1 build being so versatile from Terrans, but they refuse to do the same for their race. Zerg have refused to build Spine Crawlers and more Queens than they have hatcheries and it took Spanishiwa to convice a lot of people who were stuck in their mantras that it actually can work. IdrA claimed to have "tried everything" against Protoss death balls long ago, but still Zerg have figured out how to beat Protoss (even before the recent buffs). People who claim things not going to work just havent tried enough IMO ... or to quote Lawrence of Arabia: NOTHING is written!
Just as a suggestion you could even save some of your own Sentries from Banelings with your Phoenixes ... just to save your invested gas. Be creative ...
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As far as I am concerned toss is doing fine.
Nani came second in TSL only losing because he let nerves get to him, while ThorZain really played an A game. The fact that Nani even came close to beating ThorZain in the final game while he played like a mong shows that toss is fine right now.
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Rabiator, lifted banelings still explode and hits ground units.
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Canada13379 Posts
On June 05 2011 01:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 00:58 2GRe-Play- wrote:On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2011 00:12 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:07 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +IdrA complains a lot about the other races and what he cant do and so on, but he always sounds like only Zerg have to take risks. Well that isnt the case and maybe Protoss have to realize this as well. With Forcefields and the ability to control the battlefield the Protoss have been playing it pretty safe, but maybe its time to adjust and take a little more risks.
Apart from DTs there are very very very few Protoss harasses going on. I am not talking about a bunch of Blink Stalkers jumping in and out of a base, because those are most likely about 90% of the Protoss units. I am more talking about using a Warp Prism to warp in just a few Zealots to disrupt mining and kill a few workers; I am talking about two Immortals in a Warp Prism which are used to snipe a Terrans addons while he is sieging your 3rd / 4th; I am talking about a small bunch of Void Rays (~3) to snipe air defense turrets late game ... there are loads of possibilities, but Protoss do even less harrass than Zerg in mid and late game and that is a key to success. 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. What? Honestly, not trying to be rude, what level do you play at? There won't be a necessary powerful response to void rays and phoenix. Phoenix themselves can't do much until there are a large amount of them. You say this as a late game strategy, they will be 0-0, upgraded marines or hydras will tear through them. DT is superior in all ways because you can make archons and get map control, and both die to the same thing (spores/turrets) so you might as well be getting the DTs. They will already have vikings and corruptors to deal with colossi and if you don't get those colossi you will get overrun. Why would you even get one or two carriers...seriously this post just doesn't make sense. There is no point to having one or two random carriers taking up minerals/gas because they get better as you get more and vikings will already be out to deal with colossi. As for expensive techs and Terrans having to get a Starport or two...what? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how amazing medivacs are for the bioball? They are a complete game changer in TvP that pretty much signify the terran movement into mid-game. Those same reactored starports are later used to pump out vikings as well. Sorry but I don't think this is the answer. Expensive stargate units that are useless in a real late game combat just to do a couple hundred minerals worth of damage? You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can. have u ever play Protoss? Protoss cant afford going Stargate play vs Terran, they will just all in u in the midgame un cant go stargate route cause protoss need AOE = Collosus we cant waste gas on other things. Man, Terran tech path is Natural because Starport is part of their build, Zerg Tech path is Natural because lair = hydra,spire,infetor pit. Protoss have to go ROBO, STARGATE OR ARCHIVE OR DARKSHIRE. do u see the difference? and the best of them is ROBO so thats why u cant go Stargate You probably didnt realize that "Starport is part of their build" is a pretty stupid excuse. You could just as well make the Stargate part of your build. Bio-Terrans have to build a Factory just to be able to make a Starport, so stop the whine about the cost please ... its YOUR choice to make. People have complained about the 1/1/1 build being so versatile from Terrans, but they refuse to do the same for their race. Zerg have refused to build Spine Crawlers and more Queens than they have hatcheries and it took Spanishiwa to convice a lot of people who were stuck in their mantras that it actually can work. IdrA claimed to have "tried everything" against Protoss death balls long ago, but still Zerg have figured out how to beat Protoss (even before the recent buffs). People who claim things not going to work just havent tried enough IMO ... or to quote Lawrence of Arabia: NOTHING is written!Just as a suggestion you could even save some of your own Sentries from Banelings with your Phoenixes ... just to save your invested gas. Be creative ...
Actually logistically you cant go all the tech trees. Off one base you can support one stargate void ray and one robo immortal making only those two units and chronoboosting them if you make correct pylons. Once in a while you can warp One zealot. Thats not a good unit composition and is very small thanks to the high gas cost.
Just pointing out that I think everyone in this thread needs to sit back and take a breather and stop flaming eachother. Just theorycrafting "OMG! PPL SAY X ABOUT Z BUT ITS NOT TRUE NOW DO SOMETHING WITH TOSS LIKE THIS TERRAN BuiLD BUT THE PROTOSS EQUIVALENT!!!" Relax all reading this thread makes me sad since any real discussion about how toss is performing in the GSL has turned into QQ and flaming between the different races.
:/
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On June 05 2011 00:52 Catch]22 wrote:
Obviously if a bunch tossplayer loses, P is underpowered, right? Oh wait
That's the logic the Zerg race has been using (and got the infestor buffed because of it..).
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On June 05 2011 00:52 Catch]22 wrote:
Obviously if a bunch tossplayer loses, P is underpowered, right? Oh wait
Obviously if a bunch Zerg and Terran players lose, Z/T are underpowered, right? Oh wait.
Bring your ignorance away. Go back to your IdrA mommy pls.
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EPT
