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Grimjim
United States395 Posts
On June 05 2011 03:08 XenocideFTW wrote: Online tournaments mean nothing. Koreans are definitely better than foreigners. There is no competition. How bout Idra at MLG, huh? 2-0 some rando Korean Protoss. Oh. That was MC? | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
since they have been QQ for ever to realise that they are right now the strongest race due to unneccessary buffs. Cause almost any strategy that changed the prior metagame wasn't effected from those changes at all. The Whole Buffs/Nerfs only adds up to that. Protoss is alot weaker than it was some patches ago and people still are in bitching mode. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On June 05 2011 00:36 Rabiator wrote: You didnt seem to think about what I wrote. Throw away your mantras and read again. One of the key things is interrupting the rhythm of your opponent. Killing a Spire will require it to be rebuild and give you a window of opportunity to kill those pesky Mutalisks which are harrassing you all the time. Cost efficiency does not matter most of the time. Do you really think that rolling a ton of Banelings into a Planetary Fortress is "cost efficient"? It certainly isnt, but its still worth it because it removes part of the opponents economy and disrupts him. So get rid of that cost efficiency mantra and think how you could do the same to your opponents. Try how many Void Rays you need to kill a key building and support their number by a few hallucinations and / or Phoenixes to pick up 2-3 Queens who might be the only air defense the Zerg has. Be creative instead of a horse with blinkers and if you dont think you can afford it you need to work on your macro. So Medivacs are awesome and Terrans always get them. Why dont Protoss mix in some Phoenix into their ball of death? Their main point isnt dealing damage but rather taking out key enemy units (and providing vision). In addition "just a few Phoenix" are needed to force your opponent to cover his bases with anti-air defense. Making an opponent spend additional resources is ALWAYS worth it, so stop the propaganda about it being too expensive. So you dislike Medivacs and Vikings and dont think it is worth disrupting the Terran by killing off Reactors? They take 50 secs to build. Obviously its not worth killing a few of them, right? Wrong! Thats one of the worst things to do to a Terran late game. Since they only cost 50/50 you wont ever think about attacking them, but thats one of the achilles heels of Terran: you cant afford to lose your production facilities, because you cant afford to take off 10 SCVs to rebuild them and the addons. Terrans cant ever speed up their production as Zerg or Protoss can. Er...we'll see if this happens, something makes me doubt it though. | ||
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Aidagny
13 Posts
On June 05 2011 03:21 Grimjim wrote: How bout Idra at MLG, huh? 2-0 some rando Korean Protoss. Oh. That was MC? Well in pool play right now the koreans are: MC 2W 1L Moon 2W 1L MMA 3W 0L Losira 3W 0L So in total in pool play the Koreans are 10 and 2. Not to mention July is crushing the open bracket. So you can't quite say they are doing bad. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On June 05 2011 03:25 Aidagny wrote: Well in pool play right now the koreans are: MC 2W 1L Moon 2W 1L MMA 3W 0L Losira 3W 0L So in total in pool play the Koreans are 10 and 2. Not to mention July is crushing the open bracket. So you can't quite say they are doing bad. They are also extremely jetlagged, MC worst of all. Of course every single person on this forum will call that a stupid excuse, but the korean translator has posted on this forum saying that they were all in pretty bad condition. We'll see how they do today since jetlag is not a good excuse anymore. IdrA isn't as amazing as everyone is screaming about, he's 7-1 against Minigun recently. Once you know his style he's fucked. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 05 2011 03:25 Aidagny wrote: Well in pool play right now the koreans are: MC 2W 1L Moon 2W 1L MMA 3W 0L Losira 3W 0L So in total in pool play the Koreans are 10 and 2. Not to mention July is crushing the open bracket. So you can't quite say they are doing bad. They have yet to hit real big names though. I am surprised moon is doing good though considering he aint a huge player like the others. Also if July, a golden mouse winner, was not demolishing the open bracket, this game would not be worth watching. Also Major Looking strong! They are also extremely jetlagged, MC worst of all. Of course every single person on this forum will call that a stupid excuse, but the korean translator has posted on this forum saying that they were all in pretty bad condition. We'll see how they do today since jetlag is not a good excuse anymore. Yeah all other other players actually live and practice at the venue, its not like they also travel to get there! | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On June 05 2011 03:21 Grimjim wrote: How bout Idra at MLG, huh? 2-0 some rando Korean Protoss. Oh. That was MC? Idra and Naniwa were already known as being the few foreigners who can keep up with koraen play. Not surprising at all. Take a look at Korean play in general after day 1, 10-2 record, jetlag included. Overall they're much better than foreigners. Of course there are a few who can keep up, but those are rare exceptions. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
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Consummate
Australia191 Posts
All 3 races have had the same Code S winners (minus Fruitdealer for Zerg), and each season, the winners looked absolutely invincible. To me, that tells me the game is pretty well balanced. The only thing is, Terran have like 5 really good players, Zerg have 3 and Protoss have 3, that is why Terran usually look so good. | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
On June 05 2011 03:58 Consummate wrote: Honestly, I believe the game is very close to balanced. I personally can't think of a single flaw in balance, however, I do believe Protoss need to be changed drastically because of their reliance on Colossus which is a unit that should be getting removed for having a stupid concept with no micro in the expansion. That obviously means other things need to be fixed to make up for it. All 3 races have had the same Code S winners (minus Fruitdealer for Zerg), and each season, the winners looked absolutely invincible. To me, that tells me the game is pretty well balanced. The only thing is, Terran have like 5 really good players, Zerg have 3 and Protoss have 3, that is why Terran usually look so good. The problem with any balance discussion is that we can't tell if SC2 was balanced or imbalanced at some point since release since there have been so many patches and changes. It might be true that it is balanced right now, but it is too early to tell, the same way it is too early to declare any form of imbalance. However we have to ask ourselves what kind of balance we want. As Idra stated on - I believe - SotG balance could mean that we have just coinflip scenarios which allow both players to have equal chances of winning, but that is a state we don't want SC2 to be in. And one problem I and many others have with toss is their reliance on HT, Colossi and FF. One money EMP, a good Colossi snipe or a Protoss simply running out of FFand Protoss is doomed. Just losing your key units in a battle will result in a lost since you can't rebuild them quickly enough. Apart from that I find it difficult to deal with Zerg and I believe players will have to come up with tactics and timings to beat them. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
EMP in SC1 was great because it was attached to the science vessel which was t3 tech. Personally I would like to see it changed to single cast or make it be a raven ability. | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
There are many untapped strategies for protoss, ranging from Immortal/HT use, warp prism harrass, archons (which are now better), carriers: things can still evolve. Of course I agree there is a design flaw regarding the protoss race. Hell there is a design flaw in the zerg race as well, and there might be one in terran for that matter. We can only hope that these things get solved in HOTS. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
But who am I kidding, Z/T would just stop bitching about the colossus and concentrate on Templar. The truth is, most ppl dont want balance. No, they just want a situation where it is easy to win against the other races, but the players of the other races are keeping their mouths shut. That's why it was bad for the protoss players to be quite after the release. Protoss gamers, just keep complaining and Blizz will have to do something about it. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On June 05 2011 05:29 okrane wrote: I would seriously like to know what the changes to Protoss were in the latest patches that inspired the creators and sustainers of this whine thread to post 26 pages of this? people don't realize how much nerfing 4 Gate effects overall Metagame. Protoss has almost no early Game threats, especially against Zerg. While Zerg has some good Options to pressure an Expansion. While that it self doesn't mean something is imbalanced, what also comes in Play that Finally after Months uses some of their tools, after playing "wrong" for so long. And considering the other Nerfs and Buffs overall Protoss Gameplay is alot weaker than some patches ago. It will take some good creativity to create solid & effective Builds that doesn't die to Buildordere losses. | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
On June 05 2011 05:29 okrane wrote: I would seriously like to know what the changes to Protoss were in the latest patches that inspired the creators and sustainers of this whine thread to post 26 pages of this? There are many untapped strategies for protoss, ranging from Immortal/HT use, warp prism harrass, archons (which are now better), carriers: things can still evolve. Of course I agree there is a design flaw regarding the protoss race. Hell there is a design flaw in the zerg race as well, and there might be one in terran for that matter. We can only hope that these things get solved in HOTS. You wanna know the changes that effect Protoss negatively towards other match-ups? Well, you asked for it: - Amulet removed - warpgate research increased - Ghosts gas cost down to 100, let's terran sometimes get more ghosts than Protoss has HTs - Infestor buff And those are recent ones. Going back in the past: - Roach range increase, made roaches pretty potent against cannon walls Buffs for Protoss: - Phoenix production time shorter - observer a bit cheaper - Archon became good, but still a mere recycle than core unit - Sentry Gateway build time -5 seconds. I hope you see why Protosses complain. Be it justified or not, times are pretty rough as a toss, I can tell you! | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
On June 05 2011 05:12 dooraven wrote: EMP is so retarded against protoss. 1 EMP can instantly shut down pretty much all your dps if you go ht. Does damage to both sheilds and energy, and is effectively T1.5/T2 tech. EMP in SC1 was great because it was attached to the science vessel which was t3 tech. Personally I would like to see it changed to single cast or make it be a raven ability. EMP doesnt remove all the energy, you can still storm if you get hit by 1 emp.... +you can always feedback ghosts | ||
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
On June 05 2011 07:02 cilinder007 wrote: EMP doesnt remove all the energy, you can still storm if you get hit by 1 emp.... +you can always feedback ghosts Yeah, if you have a high templar with full energy. Which never happens. And EMP outranges feedback. Snipe outranges feedback as well. He's right, giving ravens emp is a good idea, it doesn't belong in the hands of a low tech caster. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
Apart from small buffs to gateway units, scaling upgrades to Stalkers (at least +1/+1), nerfing of FF/Colossus (I don't think either of these should be removed though, at least not the FF), tweaking of the WG mechanic, I'd also like to see the Immortal return to being a gateway unit. I don't think the Immortal should be directly accessible but probably unlocked through research at Core and maybe tweaked a little (hardened shield as a toggle-able/cooldown ability?). This would return the Immortal to a tanking and damage dealing unit around which Zealots and Stalkers could work around and give some real small unit efficiency and effectiveness to the Protoss army. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
Its essentially because we really have only one viable tech path and that is Colosi and this revolves around an immobile ball of units due to the reliance on Colosi and FFs. We have to protect those units with the bulk of our army as if they die, the whole protoss army dies because our Stakler is so pathetic unlike the Roach and the Marauder which are backbone units Zerg and Terran players have figured out how to beat this style with bane drops, mm drops, infestors and emps etc Protoss has the least flexible tech options, if you build a robo you are commiting your self to robo in the midgame and hope to try get a transition, Twilight Council was a worthwhile tech tree until nerf. Now essentaily you're just praying that EMPs don't get your Hts. Stargate is unexplored but this is basically because if you go Air your army is pathetic as protoss and just dies to any push from terran/zerg. EMP doesnt remove all the energy, you can still storm if you get hit by 1 emp.... +you can always feedback ghosts Terrans just get a lot of ghosts now and can emp twice at the exact same spot. Feedback would work except it has a range of 9 and EMP has a range of 10. Ideally the Feedback EMP war would decide who wins an Engagement in a HT/Ghost Battle but EMP is much better than storm and Terran T1 is much much better than T1 toss. So yeah we protoss need to find better stargate builds and twilight council builds. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
All that said though, I don't think Protoss should QQ yet (and as a Toss player I do think that this is what this thread is mainly about despite all the denial) because I think Blizzard have been too trigger happy with patch changes. Let the game rest for a while and see what happens, and let top Toss players strategize and talk about and try different options. If after a few months, the same issues are still being confronted and Toss is still being carried (at tourney level) by a couple of exceptional players (Naniwa/MC for example) then patch changes will be warranted, and Toss players can then legitimately say so (even if it does mean a few months of pain). | ||
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