EPTProtoss at the GSL - Page 22
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On June 04 2011 22:16 spacemonkeyy wrote: Everyone ridiculed me a month and a half ago when I said the tides were changing and Z and T were coming back in a big way. Stick with it Brotoss, most nerfs, smallest time on top, least QQ. Really? Least QQ? Apparently you missed the ~400 posts before yours. Almost ALL balance QQ on TL comes from PvZ discussion, from both ends. | ||
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Laurence
Ireland119 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
From a Protoss point of view, though, ZvP has always been my worst match-up. This is because, as Protoss, you are locked into your base because otherwise Roaches or more recently Hydra/bling drops can destroy your whole base/army with ease, so Protoss has to focus on positioning to put down forcefields and have buildings in the way to protect them. Obviously, to have those units your opponent has to have two things: time, and fewer drones while those units are being produced. This means that as Protoss there are 2 ways to play: 1) Timing attack based play. 2) Scout constantly and attack when there are few units and Drones are being made. ________________________________________ 1) Obviously, timing attacks eg 4gates, 6gates etc are all timing attacks. However, I would contend that the 200/200 deathball attack is also a timing attack: it relies on your enemy having maxed out on weaker units per supply, etc. If you miss the timing your opponent can get Broodlords etc and suddenly your units are less effective. If you go too early, you get crushed. However, it is also being destroyed by the new style of Zerg - the 'swarm' style, where Zerg switches from Drones to units instantly and suddenly you are being attacked from everywhere. 2) Scout constantly, defend when you can and attack when you see there are few units. This is just another version of the timing attack except rather than being based on a coinflip (did they prepare, which build they are going for) it is based on knowing what they have. Because you have to scout, you dedicate more resources to that so any attacks will be less strong, but it will be guaranteed damage. However, defending certain timing attacks from Zerg that come before you have scouting capabilities (such as Hallu research time or Robo coming up) will be near impossible. Look at PvZ games. Protoss will have zero map control until he goes on a timing attack, and then only for a brief period of time: Protoss will either win or lose there, unless something funky happens. I also reckon that Colossi have gone past their sell-by-date in PvZ especially. I was never fond of them anyway. There is a window of opportunity where they are fragile and take too many resources to reach while having a great defence as well. They rely on Zerg not attacking at the right time, with the right units etc. If you instead decide to go for them slowly, you risk not having the right unit for dealing with Hydras etc, and it is easier to 'counter' them in the lategame where all the tech is there. I foresee IST (Immortal Stalker Templar) becoming more the standard in PvZ, with Templar to storm Hydras and Feedback Infestors, Stalkers to defend vs... well, pretty much anything early game and Immortals to defend vs Roaches. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On June 04 2011 22:19 aksfjh wrote: Really? Least QQ? Apparently you missed the ~400 posts before yours. Almost ALL balance QQ on TL comes from PvZ discussion, from both ends. Maybe you should read the thread instead of assuming it's all balance QQ. It's actually a pretty good discussion (as far as balance discussion threads go) and I really see the "Protoss loses, player is bad, Zerg loses, race is UP" double standard discussion more than balance QQ in the earlier posts in this thread. | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On June 04 2011 03:04 Cthun wrote: I'm not saying protoss are underpowered, but if most pros have such a hard time playing it then what chance do I have to get good at it :/ Maybe it's a race reserved for very few special ppl like HuK and some others that have quad core brains ^^ Lol funny thing, your post was actually longer.. (but I did read it (; dw) and yet they remain overrepresented in all higher leagues with the exception of gm and dominate most tournaments outside korea.. something doesn't add up. protoss require quad core breains? interesting summary. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 04 2011 17:16 Heavenly wrote: 1.) Tons of protoss play greedy, MC is a prime example and EVERYONE says he either uses abusive timings or plays extremely greedy. Terran plays greedy behind bunkers and zergs play as greedy as humanly possible. Protoss playing greedy is the easiest to exploit in the early and mid game because beyond turtling or timings we are fragile to other race's timings. 2.) Warp prism zealot harass happens all the time. They disrupt mining yeah, at the cost of robo time, 200 mins for warp prism, 100 per zealot, and maybe 2-3 scv or drone deaths before an observant player pulls his scvs away and kills the zealots. Storm drops are still better but an aware player can still pull workers away quickly and you are putting 250 minerals and 300 gas into the hope of killing as many workers as possible. I do see storm drops in the late game even though its a large risk due to vikings and potential turrets up for deterring DTs. Killing 10 workers is nice but still not a huge game changer. 3.) Immortal drops are 700/300 to snipe addons, immortals as part of your army aren't especially great either compared to what could have been a colossi for a bit more time and an additional +50/50. 4.) Void rays aren't going to do anything? In the late game they'll be 0/0, are an expensive tech, worthless in a unit comp unless against zerg and in that case they are better in your army compared to risking them to a horde of corruptors meant for your colossi for the sake of sniping four drones and a couple spores. Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. | ||
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Mentymion
Germany259 Posts
On June 04 2011 22:32 rmAmnesiac wrote: and yet they remain overrepresented in all higher leagues with the exception of gm and dominate most tournaments outside korea.. something doesn't add up. protoss require quad core breains? interesting summary. Could be the fact that Non Korean players like to turtle up and rolling you with a 200/200 army instead of Korean players which like to demonstrate their skill by harassing the shit out of you , gaining little advantage with each step....but ooh Toss hasn' t a single cost efective harass unit and warp prism are kinda shit compared to proxy pylons. My posts seems pretty dumb about this but I actually find some glimmer of true in that xD | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On June 04 2011 22:32 rmAmnesiac wrote: and yet they remain overrepresented in all higher leagues with the exception of gm and dominate most tournaments outside korea.. something doesn't add up. protoss require quad core breains? interesting summary. Not sure what overrepresentation in lower leagues has to do with anything, or why you can just sweep aside results from the epicenter of competitive SC2. Something doesn't add up, and I think it's that the QQ about protoss is not dying down fast enough. | ||
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BoB_KiLLeR
Spain620 Posts
On June 04 2011 03:01 ErikZerg wrote: Protoss is still the best race just bad players fuck you troy | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote: Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. Mc did said Stargate harass against Idra on Metalopolis in the MLG + Show Spoiler + Didn't help, he was behind 120/130 to 180 supply i think it was. I think especially in ZvP protoss needs a way to deny / delay the third from zerg as long as possible. Nearly every game i see a zerg gets an easy third (without protoss forge fe) he seems to get ahead so ridiculously fast. I think protoss needs to invent builds that go to snipe that third, be it blink stalkers, stargate or immortal drops. I think that's what we need to aim for at the moment, our builds are mostly safe if executed well, but we need to find something in the midgame. Our midgame is our biggest hole imo. Our current builds are either kill him midgame with a warpgate timing or turtle and surrender map control. We need something were we don't go all-in, yet remain present on the map and deal damage / show presence while taking a third and teching up. Seems hard, yet it's possible. In BW zerg managed to do it in ZvT as well. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On June 04 2011 22:38 DannyJ wrote: Not sure what overrepresentation in lower leagues has to do with anything, or why you can just sweep aside results from the epicenter of competitive SC2. Something doesn't add up, and I think it's that the QQ about protoss is not dying down fast enough. XD "epicenter." If you haven't noticed, the world is doing a damn good job of keeping the talent spread around on different continents, many of which have damn good Protoss. Korea is not one of those places with good Protoss. | ||
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Kammalleri
Canada613 Posts
You basically have one attack with sentry and you just gotta pick the timing right. If you push out a bit to force units rather than drones and he attacks you and kill your sentry you're dead. If you wait too much and he drones too hard and just outmacros you, he'll attack, kill sentry then remax and you're dead. That said players have to find new ways to win games other than relying 100% on sentry. Maybe experimenting with HT Immortal army would be good, mix in DT and Blink stalkers too I guess. It's possible to have a more mobile army than roach hydra and just deny expansion as well. Also I think the biggest issue is Zerg looked for ways to beat protoss for like 3-4 months straight and now it's time for protoss to find ways to beat zerg. It's not all about the balance, but how you use your units and how you play the game overall. Lotsof things in BW got figured out 10 years after the game got released. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
Terran and Zerg drops are great because they load up their T1 units and attack with them (and even Terran Medivacs drops usually stop after mutalisks are out) and the fact that their drop ships are actually used for things other than drops. Protoss can't really do this because as I stated our T1 pretty much is terrible without forcefeilds. Add to the fact that the warp prism is incredibly fragile, you'll see how hard it is for protoss to harass due to the lack of good T1 units. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On June 04 2011 22:35 Rabiator wrote: Greed isnt the same as taking a risk ... strategywise. I really meant they should stop thinking about "the death ball", because thats how Protoss operates nowadays. I just threw out some suggestions and they might be worth it, even though they dont seem to be that cost efficient (sniping a Spire / Infestation Pit before the Zerg can get a huge number of those units can be worth sacrificing two Immortals and a Warp Prism for example). I leave the details to the experts, but Zerg have stopped having one ball of units and started doing multi-pronged attacks and ling-run-bys and whatever and are successful just like Terrans always were with the multi-drops of Marauders / Marines. Its time for Protoss to do it as well, but they might want to do it with a mix of non-standard units like their air units. Only a few Void Rays and Phoenix are enough to kill a WEAK air defense in a base and trigger a necessary powerful response. Yet another way to force your opponent to do things he didnt really want to do and maybe even a reason to finally get a Carrier or two ... Please dont whine about expensive techs, because Terrans have to get a Starport or two against Protoss and Zerg have to get their tech 3 as well ... Its time for Protoss to build a spare Robo now ... and those Stargates to throw off the opponents by showing a handful of Void Rays inbetween battles and to force an excess of Vikings, Hydras or Corruptors. Chronoboost is an awesome tool to be able to switch fast enough between techs and to surprise your opponent. Greed is the same as taking a risk. you want protoss to split his army and do multi-pronged, have you ever played protoss? that is what your enemy want you to do... phoenix void rays and DT, are coin flips that only work when your opponent is bad. Spoiler alert + Show Spoiler + game 1 mlg IdrA x MC, even MC catching the first idra drop, it was not enought to change the fact that he oppened stargate, and idra only saw the void ray when it was allready done and on the way, he put spore c on the last second and lost nothing, in the interview he said that the game was almost won when MC's stargate tech did nothing. zerg's were buffed many times, and just learned how to do timming attacks that protoss was allready using long before. and zerg learned that 200 supply roachs only work when your opponent is not with 200 supply too... | ||
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
In a mirror matchup. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On June 04 2011 23:16 Mercury- wrote: So... basically Protoss is the weakest race again because MC lost in the first round of the Super Tournament... In a mirror matchup. Did you even bother reading the thread and not the first post lol? | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
On June 04 2011 23:16 Mercury- wrote: So... basically Protoss is the weakest race again because MC lost in the first round of the Super Tournament... In a mirror matchup. The discussion in this thread has evolved beyond that. But I guess you didn't read it. Quite educated, the problems of P are being discussed and yeah we will see how things will turn out. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On June 04 2011 23:19 dooraven wrote: Did you even bother reading the thread and not the first post lol? On some level, he has a point. If MC was still in, this topic probably wouldn't be here. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On June 04 2011 23:23 aksfjh wrote: On some level, he has a point. If MC was still in, this topic probably wouldn't be here. Isn't the OP complaining about protosses other than MC getting destroyed? So I dunno I think the thread would still be here. | ||
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