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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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WizShaw
Canada107 Posts
The PvT matchup is also a problem, the toss composition and sheer number of abilities and units has to be tweaked eventually. Im kind of glad players like Jinro are beginning to speak up. Overall it always comes back to the void or the Collossi. The void is still the only unit in the game without a weakness. Flies, hits everything, does great damage, decent speed and can tstand up well to almost everything. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:00 Swede wrote: You didn't understand what I meant. It's not the Spire build time that's important. It's the time it takes to reach a critical mass of mutas (ie, enough to overcome the voidray/collosus ball). That time is greater than the time required to get to storm (by a large margin too). Besides, he won't remain on two base. Two base void ray/collosus is as much an opening build as it is a killing build. He can still expand despite your mutas by spreading his army out to avoid harass. You can't make a full frontal attack because the nature of mutalisks is that they're shit in straight up fights until very large numbers. The only way mass mutalisk ever works is if your opponent reacts poorly. For example, not defending your harassment properly, not getting storm or phoenix immediately etc. Protoss can't really spread his army, especially if he's going Colo/Void. That works as a ball. Colo and Voids work best in large numbers. Zerg units, excepting the Mutalisk, work best in medium numbers. This is part of the reason we're starting to see Zergs get really aggressive against Protoss: to keep the army sizes from getting too big and ballooning. If Protoss splits their army, Zerg can take advantage of the protoss having divided to conquer. The big weakness of this build is that Protoss is building units that are A. terrible in low numbers and B. expensive. This requires the P to turtle on two bases for quite a while. The problem is that Zerg can't figure out a way to exploit this weakness, either because there just isn't one or it's some funky obscure timing no one's thought of. | ||
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ben01016
Canada14 Posts
On March 07 2011 14:09 Masada714 wrote: I'm a 2900+ Plat player and I don't understand why Z feel that this Protoss deathball is considered imba. If there is something I'm missing please inform me because if you look at the unit comp it seems that this is what should be happening. This is usually what I will get in what seems to be the Deathball. T3 - 5-6 Colossus T2 - 6-8 Void Rays, maybe 1-2 Immortals T1 - 20 -25 Stalkers and sentries/zealot to fill in for max Now the Zerg typical comp we know is Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. Now the Z has no Tier 3 unit in this composition and we both have the same amount of Tier 2 and Tier 1 unit types. What I see is Z saying I can't stop a 200/200 Protoss deathball but shouldn't that be the case? The Toss has higher tech and Army Value. The question I ask for you Z players is because a Zerg maxs faster then Protoss, why don't you attack to prevent us from getting maxed especially when you can reinforce quickly as well? Also, the other question I have is it even viable for Z to have a different composition against this? This might take too long but could a Z eventually transition into Ling/Hydra/Muta/Broodlord? This is just my thoughts overall and I don't think it is as imba as people make it out to be. Thx Did you watch the video clip? It was already stated toss only needs to sit in its own base and does not need to move out until the army is maxed out. How difficult it is to defend your own base and the cloest expo? If you can't do that I guess you can move on to some other game now. What a Z is going to do? Drop? Nydus? cuz for a good toss Z going front door is just not going to work with proper FF. So let's say u as a Z survivied and a 200/200 vs a 200/200. The ground army you stated above will just simply get melted. Period. There's a reason why this thread is created and why this is considered OP. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On March 07 2011 14:24 Ribbon wrote: Protoss can't really spread his army, especially if he's going Colo/Void. That works as a ball. Colo and Voids work best in large numbers. Zerg units, excepting the Mutalisk, work best in medium numbers. This is part of the reason we're starting to see Zergs get really aggressive against Protoss: to keep the army sizes from getting too big and ballooning. If Protoss splits their army, Zerg can take advantage of the protoss having divided to conquer. The big weakness of this build is that Protoss is building units that are A. terrible in low numbers and B. expensive. This requires the P to turtle on two bases for quite a while. The problem is that Zerg can't figure out a way to exploit this weakness, either because there just isn't one or it's some funky obscure timing no one's thought of. While normally I would agree the Protoss player should avoid splitting his army if possible, the situation we are talking about (a player going mass mutalisk + zergling) is an exception. There are not enough mutalisks to be cost effective in any sort of straight up engagement at the point where Protoss is on 2 base. Even fighting a third of his army with your mutalisks will prove cost ineffective. You don't want to be making trades the way you normally would with roach/hydra. The only other counter attack the Protoss needs to worry about is a zergling one, and collosi + forcefield nullify that pretty badly, so there's nothing worrisome about having a split army. ANYWAY, enough time spent theory crafting in the SC2 forums... In the end the success of a mass mutalisk strategy will be determined in game, and personally I have never witnessed such a thing in a game with good players. | ||
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
BW we had dark swarm for the hydras. now we have fungal. Will fungal work? Slowly weaken the ball and stop its mobility while taking pot shots and the bases? all i can think of is try to force and elimination race and hope you win. is a buff really necessary? or do we just need more time to think of a solution? On March 07 2011 14:56 Zerksys wrote: I watched the entire video and I liked what they said about the build. It gave me some insight into how to counter it, but I feel like they ignored one aspect of zerg play and it's that mutaling is very strong against this. Heck maybe even just mass muta would be strong against it. Am I just being stupid here? Is there something I'm not seeing? Void ray+ Colossus is very gas heavy so you probably won't have enough gas to build a massive amount of stalkers. Void rays don't do much damage to light units ie mutas and colossi can't wreck ground if there's no ground to wreck. Sure protoss can just switch into sentry/stalker/zealot, but doesn't that solve the problem? ht with a well placed storm would leave weak mutas for void rays to swallow. there was a game i watched where this happened. it was not even funny how a giant flock of mutas can just die like that. | ||
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trNimitz
204 Posts
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WizShaw
Canada107 Posts
Both Z and T shouldnt have to come up with elaborate schemes to beat this. There isnt going to be a sure fire counter until the game is tweaked. 60+ pages and nothing definitive... Seriously. Time to start asking for a damn patch. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:18 WizShaw wrote: This is rediculous.... Seriously. Both Z and T shouldnt have to come up with elaborate schemes to beat this. There isnt going to be a sure fire counter until the game is tweaked. 60+ pages and nothing definitive... Seriously. Time to start asking for a damn patch. You can counter it. I doubt you've read all 60 pages. Good players are already learning how to deal with it. | ||
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WizShaw
Canada107 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:19 pezit wrote: As much as i normally would agree that buffing is the way to go in this case i'll have to disagree. The problem is the colossus and it needs to be changed (into a reaver) to make stuff interesting again. I agree, the colossus seems to be the core of the problem. Time for a patch, a special carapace buff on the corrupters or even a colossi nerf.. I dont know... The next few gsls are all going to be toss wins until something is done. Top players are all getting owned by toss right now. | ||
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WizShaw
Canada107 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:20 dunc wrote: You can counter it. I doubt you've read all 60 pages. Good players are already learning how to deal with it. Deal with it, yes. Counter it, no. And what about phoenixes? Even Jinro stated he didnt know what to do, they kite, they are faster then anything the terran has. Seriously... things need to be tweaked. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:22 WizShaw wrote: I agree, the colossus seems to be the core of the problem. Time for a patch, a special carapace buff on the corrupters or even a colossi nerf.. I dont know... The next few gsls are all going to be toss wins until something is done. Top players are all getting owned by toss right now. I don't think a buff of the corruptors would be a good idea, it's already strong versus most air units, the only problem it has is that it can't kill colossus fast enough. And if you buff it's DPS it'll kill mothership/BC's/carriers even faster. | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:23 WizShaw wrote: Deal with it, yes. Counter it, no. And what about phoenixes? Even Jinro stated he didnt know what to do, they kite, they are faster then anything the terran has. Seriously... things need to be tweaked. As far as I know, all Jinro said was that he wasn't good at dealing with phoenix harass. In many ways it is just like a weaker version of the muta harass. The only advantage that phoenixes have is that the first couple can come out earlier than mutas usually do, so you have to get your defenses ready a bit sooner. | ||
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:23 WizShaw wrote: Deal with it, yes. Counter it, no. And what about phoenixes? Even Jinro stated he didnt know what to do, they kite, they are faster then anything the terran has. Seriously... things need to be tweaked. Jinro has also said he's not good vs Protoss. Out of everything in this game, Phoenix is one of the last things you should worry about honestly. Just build more marines. | ||
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WizShaw
Canada107 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:25 pezit wrote: I don't think a buff of the corruptors would be a good idea, it's already strong versus most air units, the only problem it has is that it can't kill colossus fast enough. And if you buff it's DPS it'll kill mothership/BC's/carriers even faster. Meant more of a buff to their carapace, against say energy weapons. That way they last longer diverting other attacks which would sustain the zerg army longer against the onslaught of the colossus. Jinro has also said he's not good vs Protoss. Out of everything in this game, Phoenix is one of the last things you should worry about honestly. Just build more marines. No he said he didnt know what to do. Big difference. And on top of it, very few are good against toss right now. Thats they we have this thread. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:23 WizShaw wrote: Deal with it, yes. Counter it, no. And what about phoenixes? Even Jinro stated he didnt know what to do, they kite, they are faster then anything the terran has. Seriously... things need to be tweaked. Phoenixes? Easy to neutralize ... just build a few turrets (more than "just one per mineral line"!!!!!) and get it over with. If you get too few you wont have a large enough effect and waste resources. Sure you lose a few resources, but fewer than you will if you allow the harrass to continue. For Terrans a bunker with some marines in it might help protecting the mineral line from Phoenixes if you dont want to spend resources permanently on turrets. As for the "deathball" it is pretty easy to see from recent progamer matches that you have to put pressure on the Protoss to slow him down. The specifics of this really depend on the map and your playing style ... Hydra drop, Baneling carpet bombing, Nydus worms, Mutalisk swarm harrass on bases after the Protoss leaves them, ... just pick your flavor and apply it. The biggest problem is most of the time the Protoss starts with the aggression and this puts the Zerg on the defensive. Sure Speedlings are nice and you can do a lot with them, but they do one thing: slow down your economy by "wasting" larvae. This is something the Zerg need to overcome as much as their unwillingness to build sufficient numbers of Spine Crawlers and Queens which offer a more long lasting early defense than Speedlings and which require fewer larvae than Speedlings. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
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Siwa
91 Posts
Think of the imba things announced since beta that people eventually learned to counter. Remember that A&I are not gods that know if something cannot be countered. And the answer is not always a unit composition thing, it could be a change in play style or change in aggression/timings (ie. july style). | ||
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