EPTthe imbalancement this is this. for example 4gate is not imbalanced, just strong, and if you scout it, and react properly you win. but in this case, i know what he is doing but i cannot defend agasint it. maybe it is not imbalancement just we dont know how to counter it. really i dont know, but as far as i know it you want to fight with it on the late game only combination i know is, some baneling drops to mineral lines, destroy robos, and fight with sh*t lots of hatcheries spawning roaches and corruptors.
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 63
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s1eger
United States126 Posts
the imbalancement this is this. for example 4gate is not imbalanced, just strong, and if you scout it, and react properly you win. but in this case, i know what he is doing but i cannot defend agasint it. maybe it is not imbalancement just we dont know how to counter it. really i dont know, but as far as i know it you want to fight with it on the late game only combination i know is, some baneling drops to mineral lines, destroy robos, and fight with sh*t lots of hatcheries spawning roaches and corruptors. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On March 09 2011 23:44 Siwa wrote: As good as they are. Artosis and idra alone cannot be the voice of SC2 imbalance. And I bet it's not what they claim to be either. Think of the imba things announced since beta that people eventually learned to counter. Remember that A&I are not gods that know if something cannot be countered. And the answer is not always a unit composition thing, it could be a change in play style or change in aggression/timings (ie. july style). Have any examples of these styles? You have hyper aggressive, aggressive, and macro. Fast hyper agression is easily stalled by sentries, and aggression is hard without creep for hydras, and cannons are quiet strong against this style.. drops are incredibly risky and easily stopped by a competent protoss (see moon vs squirtle, where squirtle lost a colossus to slow hydra off creep in his main, allowing the hydras to kill a ton of stuff. This was a huge mistake that lost him that game that someone like MC would not make). | ||
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SyyRaaaN
Sweden136 Posts
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On March 10 2011 00:05 Mailing wrote:drops are incredibly risky and easily stopped by a competent protoss (see moon vs squirtle, where squirtle lost a colossus to slow hydra off creep in his main, allowing the hydras to kill a ton of stuff. This was a huge mistake that lost him that game that someone like MC would not make). I won't deny that drops are pretty risky unless your timing is impeccable, but saying that any competent Protoss can 'easily' stop it, then giving an example of Squirtle, a top-level player who beat MvP etc losing to it seems a bit poor. Sure, MC might not have made that mistake, but competent =/= just below MC level. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 10 2011 05:32 SeaSwift wrote: I won't deny that drops are pretty risky unless your timing is impeccable, but saying that any competent Protoss can 'easily' stop it, then giving an example of Squirtle, a top-level player who beat MvP etc losing to it seems a bit poor. Sure, MC might not have made that mistake, but competent =/= just below MC level. As a general rule, if a player reacts properly to what his opponent is doing and plays literally perfectly, he will be very hard to beat. That has nothing to do with balance. | ||
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OgsStump
128 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On March 10 2011 00:59 ssregitoss wrote: why there is no vr collo build in march gsl? as all of you mentioned it is imblance.so why no gsl match in match didnot end like this? only one match you are talking about 65 pages. Because it's a build that works against NA diamond zergs, not GSL players. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 14 2011 22:32 OgsStump wrote: Just curious if this is as imbalanced as they claim then why haven't we seen this build pop up more in large tournaments. I've only seen this once in the gsl and outside of that i haven't seen it that much. You would figure if it were really that imbalanced protoss would always go it versus zerg kind of like terrans always went 5 racks reaper back in the day. it is absolutely unsafe against aggressiv Zergs, this build only abuses the fact that many macrozergs like to macro without much aggression making them think that they have superior position due to better economy. This Build just reverses that position, because it is strong against Roach/Hydra/Corrupter, and that is why Players like Idra think it is imba, cause they are forced out of the comfort zone and have to put pressure earlier. In fact this is nothing different than mass mutas builds of Zerg against protoss those are highly effectiv when mutalisks are already on the field and Protoss didn't attack before that. (same position other way around) When i think about it a Muta build would beat this hands down. | ||
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Psychlone
Canada90 Posts
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Cryosin
United States182 Posts
I dont think its the fact that voids counter corrupters, though. I think the biggest problem lies in that Zerg is forced to make a completely useless unit(the corrupter) just to stay alive against protoss. It servers no purpose other than to knock out colossus which kinda seems odd. I was wondering if on the next episode you could address Terrans myriad of harassment options against Zerg. Thats whats really been bugging me. I dont see how you can drone up and play defensive when you have to deal with: #1 bunker contains #2 Blue-flame hellions #3 Banshees #4 Marine/tank/thor/medivac push after that From my point of view it feels like Zerg is forced to react too heavily just to survive the harassment giving Terran a huge edge for the 2-base push. I could be wrong though im only diamond. | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
Mass Mutalisks: It's sadly a bad strategy by itself, that's why it's so underused. When they decided to change Lost Temple (make an easier third for protoss), they basically killed the Mass Muta build on its best map and now only Metalopolis is left. (The build needs map where the natural which is save to defend and the third can be easily denied by mass mutas because of much air space) Protoss just has to scout it (HalluPhoenix, easy scouting), turtle for 8 Minutes and tech to BlinkStalker and then on 3 Bases to HTs+Archons. Perhaps the build will become stronger after they've removed the Amulett and Protoss won't be able to instant storm anymore, but if that's really the case it'll completly change the matchup. I always thought that PvZ is one of the best matchups, because it just has a really solid standard (zerg goes for roach/hydra, toss for stalker/sentry/colossi) which seemed to be very balanced, but still could be very entertaining (hydra drops/dts/phoenix/different types of rushes/etc). I don't like the direction this matchup is going now, because the Toss doesn't need any skills to win against a better zerg player, just because this one unit composition is so strong. They should nerf the VoidRay in PvZ and buff it in PvT (remove the +damage against armored, give it a little extra damage and give it the speed upgrade back so it can't be kited by vikings anymore) | ||
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etceteraetcetera
United States38 Posts
On March 15 2011 04:32 ssregitoss wrote: this strat easy countered by zergs nowadays.first they add hydras a little to secure 3. expo.then they mass corropters like 26 of them kill your air army (vr+collos) then remax again with roaches. Have you even played against a decent toss using this composition? I played against one the other day; I stole his gas so he went for a 4gate that I had enough to easily defend against; he saw that I had adequate defense and backed off to expand, and I started my third. I continuously sent changelings into his base to see him constantly producing void rays and had two robos with some colossi out. I obviously begin mass corruptor production, because I don't know when the push is actually going to come, 2 colossus, 4 void rays, and gateway, or he could wait for max, it could come at anytime. He gets his third up and I run lings around and kill every probe there, losing maybe 10 lings in the process when his army arrives, and I begin my fourth. At this point I have about 20 corruptors and +1 air attack because I needed to prepare for his pushing, but since he's scouted this with an observer, he stopped colossus production at 3 with about 7 void rays and massed stalkers and pushed immediately after I ran my lings into his third, destroyed my army with his gateway ball and pushed into my natural where my reinforcing roaches came out of their larvae piece meal and I had about 15 corruptors left doing nothing against a large stalker ball. Tell me, how should I have played this better? If I don't prepare the corruptors in time for his push, he continues colossus and void ray production, and on the small maps (non-gsl, ladder maps), I can't just bank 2500/2000 and hope that my corruptors just pop out in time when I see him start to push. And yes, that is a serious question for anyone who can answer for me, how could I have played that better? The only thing I can think of is that my multitasking is great, but the only thing I feel I could have done was to be absolutely PERFECT with it by having changelings and my eyes on his production at ALL times, and it's not that hard for a toss to start picking off changelings when you've already sent about three in that game. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On March 15 2011 01:02 Psychlone wrote: The Ling-Baneling-Hydra-Infestor-Ultra build order with a timing attack at 14 minutes that Muck posted completely wrecks this composition in 3 seconds. It will steamroll it even more after the Infestor changes because the DPS will be so high. At 14 minutes ultra, infestors, banelings,hydra?? How many bases you need for all that gas?? | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
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Ultramus
United States319 Posts
I was confounded, our armies were similar cost, and yet mine was completely demolished. Toss units are just too goddamn efficient, I have no idea how to beat the composition he had, POSSIBLY mass muta but that leaves me so vulnerable to dying to literally anything else, and I would have had to commit to them so early. He also made 8-9 cannons at his third and 4th base and attacked before I could try to snipe any of them. Zerg design makes them actually depressing to play in this game, the mechanics of the queen and creep absolutely ruin us, plus the insane cost deficiency of our units, plus the ability to mass high tech units with no punishment as toss, and FFs. Why does the collosus and sentry exist together? So absurd. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 15 2011 18:12 Ultramus wrote: I was confounded, our armies were similar cost, and yet mine was completely demolished. Toss units are just too goddamn efficient, I have no idea how to beat the composition he had, POSSIBLY mass muta but that leaves me so vulnerable to dying to literally anything else, and I would have had to commit to them so early. He also made 8-9 cannons at his third and 4th base and attacked before I could try to snipe any of them. i really doubt you had similar cost at even food with your numbers. replay? Most Zerg Units are most effective during Early/Lategame due to beeing cheap, thus having more food then your opponent. On even food obviously the other races have the advantage. (if you still have only those cheap units from early/midgame i.e. roaches) You obviously don't deal enough dps to matter. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:00 Rucky wrote: This voidray/colossus imbalance reminds me of the corsair reaver (but stronger because colossus>reaver at killing units) OR corsair carrier. The bw solution to both was to mass expand everywhere. Since artosis and idra keeps saying the protoss usually just sits on two bases, can't zerg just mass expand everywhere? BW we had dark swarm for the hydras. now we have fungal. Will fungal work? Slowly weaken the ball and stop its mobility while taking pot shots and the bases? all i can think of is try to force and elimination race and hope you win. is a buff really necessary? or do we just need more time to think of a solution? ht with a well placed storm would leave weak mutas for void rays to swallow. there was a game i watched where this happened. it was not even funny how a giant flock of mutas can just die like that. the problem with this being (IMO) that zerg is still facing down GIANT ranged armies(z/p) without the main thing that made it possible to fight them with in BW(dark swarm) what you get in SC2 is massive armies which deal alot more damage than in bw, and zergs stuck without a way to counter this(4 range units and melee? lol? dont get me started on slow hydras..) lets take a look at the unit that replaced the defiler for a moment the infestor fungal growth - this is close to plague except with a snare and much less damage, soon to be a 4 second snare with..a bit more damage neural parasite - wtf where is my dark swarm? oh right the defiler got replaced with a subpar caster(which doesnt live up to the defiler anyway) and ffs it doesnt even have consume what is needed IMO, is a dark swarm like spell on the infestor(since they obviously arent going to do a god damn thing with np) because IMO thats the biggest problem with zerg now. but on the topic of mass expanding, the difference in corsair reaver vs corsair colossus, is 1 hydralisks DIDNT suck in bw and 2 zerg had scourge. mass expanding in SC2 i imagine will get you murdered since you wont be able to saturate all your bases(or even close to it) since all zerg units take up 2 supply now(another GIANT flaw) and protoss in bw didnt have on the fly warp me in anywhere reinforcements. so they'll see you mass expanding. push and kill you waaaaay ahead of time | ||
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