EPTIt's sad how terrible corruptors are against void rays. I think corruptors should get + to armor, not just to massive.
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 61
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dave333
United States915 Posts
It's sad how terrible corruptors are against void rays. I think corruptors should get + to armor, not just to massive. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 06 2011 14:54 usethis2 wrote: I think the imbaness of this strat has been shown well throughout this season of GSL. PvZ is without a doubt the most imbalanced match up at the moment. Watch SanZenith v Nestea, SanZenith v TheWind, or AnyproPrime v Fruitdealer/Kyrix games. Why? None of those games had the protoss make a primarily Colossus/Void Ray ball off two base*. San didn't even make Colossi OR Voids against Nestea, I think. He certainly didn't mass them. Indeed, we haven't seen a Colo/VR deathball all GSL. I wonder why. *Anypro built a Stalker/Colo ball off 3-base. Even if you thought that was imba, blame Tal'Darim Altar for having the 3 bases inside each other. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
The Drops really take advantage of sentries as when they force field, you load up into overlords and drop on sentries. When colossus pops out, which should come out around this time, micro your overlords and drop on top of the colossus. Remember to drop over force fields and when the colossus tries to micro away, pick up your units and follow as colossi can only attack ground. It requires a decent amount of APM, just remember to macro strongly at home for a good follow up otherwise you might not come out ahead but even. You have to keep in mind that the drop CAN kill your opponent but you have to be prepared for a follow up because it is possible to defend, however it's guaranteed damage on the protoss. The name of the game is to be ahead, not even. The drop equalizes the economy into zergs favor if you can macro during all of this. As a bonus, if you really want to all-in and end the game, get a nydus network before you drop and set up a worm when you establish your opponents main high ground and rally your hatches to your nydus while hot keying the worm. We've been seeing some trends of zerg drops vs protoss lately in GSL which is amazing and it's the step in the right direction. However as I said, it's a delicate timing that I don't think the zergs in GSL have figured out yet. Of course, the zergs who were show casing were considered low tier zerg players before this season. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
Now if a Zerg can delay the colossus deathball by pretending to all-in, getting enough Hydras to get rid of most scouting, he can perhaps then expand/double expand, but I still feel the lack of mobility for hydras will hurt badly. It seems for everything Z does, Protoss can just respond easily. In that case, Protoss could just defend with deathball and take more nearby bases. And of course if the map is huge like Terminus, you can play like Jookto did vs Killer and do mass muta/ling harass and get tons of far away bases and whittle away the protoss, or in that game, destroy all the protoss base ^^. Another thing I love doing is Nydus expanding, but not exactly as a response to void rays, and only on maps where you can basically get away with it, like Scrap Station (behind the rock expand and island). Of course, we're getting more to what I "like" doing and works in diamond -_- Anyways, the fun thing about it is making your enemy freak out because he hears the sound. Also, I like to Nydus their base as well but not do it all-in, just go in and plant some creep tumors and maybe burrow some lings as the other ones die. That very often goes unnoticed if they are bunched up. | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On March 06 2011 17:54 Ansinjunger wrote: If a protoss scouts a 2 base all-in/timing attack, which he should definitely prepare for if he doesn't see the 3rd hatch with his phoenix scouts, shouldn't he be able to defend against the hydra drop before it hits? That is, before he's committed lots of resources to robo facility and bay. You could also just build more cannons the longer you see Z on 2 bases only, since your units are more cost efficient anyway. Add in the fact that the initial air units are virtually guaranteed to get some overlord kills, that can slow down the Zerg attack because of larva. The problem with this is that if it's a sufficiently large number of hydras a protoss player more or less needs either colossi or high templars to deal with them. Intercepting the overlords before they drop is really the only viable option here, as once the the hydras are in the protoss base any gateway/stargate force will simply die. Hydras are much, much more cost efficient than gateway units. | ||
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DrNeon
United States5 Posts
This is especially useful in this situation, if you target fire the voids, the handful of stalkers in his army will crumble to mass muta. Colos obviously are not good against the mutas, and if he tries to switch over to Phoenixes on you, you can either simply outmass him or go for a ling/roach/muta attack. I'm a platinum player, so I don't know exactly how much more "difficult" this is in the diamond or master league, but I doubt such a high percentage of Platinum Protoss players would actually be failing this build often enough for me to feel comfortable with this counter. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On March 06 2011 18:13 DrNeon wrote: Anytime I've ever scouted my opponent trying for any kind of colo deathball, I just take my third and mass mass mass mutas. This is especially useful in this situation, if you target fire the voids, the handful of stalkers in his army will crumble to mass muta. Colos obviously are not good against the mutas, and if he tries to switch over to Phoenixes on you, you can either simply outmass him or go for a ling/roach/muta attack. I'm a platinum player, so I don't know exactly how much more "difficult" this is in the diamond or master league, but I doubt such a high percentage of Platinum Protoss players would actually be failing this build often enough for me to feel comfortable with this counter. High Templar. That's why people don't mass mutas very often. If you don't kill them before psi storm is ready, and they will go for psi storm if they see you massing mutas, you lose. The only real solution to collosus/void ray at the moment is just playing way better than your opponent. The strategy has no real weaknesses to abuse. It has the strength of a Terran mech army but with a lot more mobility. Just ride it out and it will be fixed eventually. | ||
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thegiantirishman
United States18 Posts
Artosis, I have found a good build that destroys the void/colossus deathball. | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On March 06 2011 18:26 Swede wrote: High Templar. That's why people don't mass mutas very often. If you don't kill them before psi storm is ready, and they will go for psi storm if they see you massing mutas, you lose. Not really relevant in this situation. First of all the vr/colossi combo requires heavy gas investment in two tech trees, while high templars would require the protoss to fully unlock a third tech tree as well. That's just not going to happen in any reasonable timeframe. Secondly, the mass mutas in this case are designed to be able to take the vr/colossi ball head-on. That means they'll be sitting right above the protoss ball, so even if he does somehow find the time and resources to get some HTs out, he'll be forced to storm his own units if he wants to hit the mutas. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On March 06 2011 18:26 Swede wrote: High Templar. That's why people don't mass mutas very often. If you don't kill them before psi storm is ready, and they will go for psi storm if they see you massing mutas, you lose. The only real solution to collosus/void ray at the moment is just playing way better than your opponent. The strategy has no real weaknesses to abuse. It has the strength of a Terran mech army but with a lot more mobility. Just ride it out and it will be fixed eventually. Mass muta isn't really utterly destroyed by storms, unless you mismicro or are too far behind. I've seen plenty of late game Toss with templars and amulet as well as blink stalkers lose to mass muta. If they're going for Colossus/Void Ray on 2 base it will not be easy for them to just switch to High Templar anyway. However, at that stage in the game it really isn't terribly easy to make enough mutas for it to work, either. | ||
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HankScorpio
Canada66 Posts
On March 06 2011 14:42 Raiznhell wrote: They don't like Terran either. Unless Terran Mechs in TvP lol then Artosis approves. Artosis was knocked out of his code A qualifier this round by a Terran who did mass Thor pushes in back to back games. About 20 Thors each time, it was a slaughter. Mass Mutas certainly beat this build, as do a number of other strats already mentioned. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On March 06 2011 20:07 zeru wrote: It's not about finding a unit composition that beats the build. It's about actually surviving and be able to get those units. You don't just get mass mutas because you want them, you will die in the process of trying to get them. It would have to be a pretty complex and high-tech composition to be unable to get it. In this build, the protoss turtles hard, focuses on economy early, and spends a long time building up a high-tech and expensive collection of units. The zerg has the freedom to get almost any units he may want, and yes that definitely includes mass mutas. | ||
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
On March 06 2011 20:14 Jumbled wrote: It would have to be a pretty complex and high-tech composition to be unable to get it. In this build, the protoss turtles hard, focuses on economy early, and spends a long time building up a high-tech and expensive collection of units. The zerg has the freedom to get almost any units he may want, and yes that definitely includes mass mutas. Because you can't get it during the time a Protoss techs to Voidrays AND Collossi off 2 base? Yes, you can. Just scout. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On March 06 2011 18:35 Jumbled wrote: Not really relevant in this situation. First of all the vr/colossi combo requires heavy gas investment in two tech trees, while high templars would require the protoss to fully unlock a third tech tree as well. That's just not going to happen in any reasonable timeframe. Secondly, the mass mutas in this case are designed to be able to take the vr/colossi ball head-on. That means they'll be sitting right above the protoss ball, so even if he does somehow find the time and resources to get some HTs out, he'll be forced to storm his own units if he wants to hit the mutas. The problem is that, even though high templar + storm is an expensive combo after having gone collosi/void ray, it takes even longer to mass enough mutas to overcome their army and kill them. Point is, psi storm is always up in time to defend a mass muta ball because it takes so long to build. Secondly, a muta ball's ability to take on a voidray/collosus/stalker ball is entirely dependent on their ability to stack. The strength of the muta ball lies in the fact that the DPS is extremely focused when stacked. In other words, each volley is removing several units from combat straight away. When you magic box them over an army you lose all of the front loaded damage - the damage is spread out over many units instead of just a few and thus it takes much longer before you begin to remove units from the battle, therefore you are taking more damage from units that would otherwise have been dead (throw in the fact that your army is spread out over theirs, so all of their units are firing too). I could go on, but there's no point sitting here theory-crafting. I've never seen anyone lose to mass muta if they played things right. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 07 2011 11:04 Swede wrote: The problem is that, even though high templar + storm is an expensive combo after having gone collosi/void ray, it takes even longer to mass enough mutas to overcome their army and kill them. Point is, psi storm is always up in time to defend a mass muta ball because it takes so long to build. Spire = 100 second build time. Assuming the Protoss scouted the Spire the very second it went down, and instantly reacts, then he makes a Twilight Council (50s) and a Templar Archives (50s). He then has to research storm. Assuming perfect c-boosting, he can get it out in 66s, or 2 production cycles worth of Mutalisks. While doing this, he can't maintain the VR/Colo production out of 2 stargates and a robo. His army will be a hodge-podge of Colos, VRs, and HTs, with a handful of gateway units, mostly Zealots sans charge, and not a lot of anything else. If you scout the protoss going Templar Tech in response to the spire, you can just go fucking kill him. And that's assuming you don't fly out of the storms. He can't make many temps off two base after going Colo/VR, after all. The bigger issue is the Protoss using the Stargates he already has to go Phoenix. That's a much easier transition to make | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On March 07 2011 11:31 Ribbon wrote: Spire = 100 second build time. Assuming the Protoss scouted the Spire the very second it went down, and instantly reacts, then he makes a Twilight Council (50s) and a Templar Archives (50s). He then has to research storm. Assuming perfect c-boosting, he can get it out in 66s, or 2 production cycles worth of Mutalisks. While doing this, he can't maintain the VR/Colo production out of 2 stargates and a robo. His army will be a hodge-podge of Colos, VRs, and HTs, with a handful of gateway units, mostly Zealots sans charge, and not a lot of anything else. If you scout the protoss going Templar Tech in response to the spire, you can just go fucking kill him. And that's assuming you don't fly out of the storms. He can't make many temps off two base after going Colo/VR, after all. The bigger issue is the Protoss using the Stargates he already has to go Phoenix. That's a much easier transition to make You didn't understand what I meant. It's not the Spire build time that's important. It's the time it takes to reach a critical mass of mutas (ie, enough to overcome the voidray/collosus ball). That time is greater than the time required to get to storm (by a large margin too). Besides, he won't remain on two base. Two base void ray/collosus is as much an opening build as it is a killing build. He can still expand despite your mutas by spreading his army out to avoid harass. You can't make a full frontal attack because the nature of mutalisks is that they're shit in straight up fights until very large numbers. The only way mass mutalisk ever works is if your opponent reacts poorly. For example, not defending your harassment properly, not getting storm or phoenix immediately etc. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
Metabolic Boost: 110 Seconds Stim-Packs: 140 Seconds In a show labeling itself some sort of objective authority, you should really watch what you say. | ||
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jstar
Canada568 Posts
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
T3 - 5-6 Colossus T2 - 6-8 Void Rays, maybe 1-2 Immortals T1 - 20 -25 Stalkers and sentries/zealot to fill in for max Now the Zerg typical comp we know is Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. Now the Z has no Tier 3 unit in this composition and we both have the same amount of Tier 2 and Tier 1 unit types. What I see is Z saying I can't stop a 200/200 Protoss deathball but shouldn't that be the case? The Toss has higher tech and Army Value. The question I ask for you Z players is because a Zerg maxs faster then Protoss, why don't you attack to prevent us from getting maxed especially when you can reinforce quickly as well? Also, the other question I have is it even viable for Z to have a different composition against this? This might take too long but could a Z eventually transition into Ling/Hydra/Muta/Broodlord? This is just my thoughts overall and I don't think it is as imba as people make it out to be. Thx | ||
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