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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On March 01 2011 19:37 koolaid1990 wrote:lol so the zerg has to "hide" his tech to beat this build? thats still imbalanced. Over time, tosses will find out that if the zerg keeps denying scout with queens and overseers then its obvious wat build the zerg will do. And a good toss will scout regardless.
And here I thought that they said the reason why Colo/VR worked so well was because toss could deny scouting.
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What an intelligent zerg did vs. me doing this once: First he attacks me with a normal ground/corruptor army, does a little damage but not enough. He then immediately made nothing but mutas with his 4-5 hatches, he proceeded to rape me with nothing but mutas, wich a bunch of stalkers and void rays absolutely don't beat.
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I've deflected this several times on ladder using +2 armor Corrupter/muta ling. The lings are thrown out first to absorb more stalker damage(they will all die), and you win the air way thus destroying the rest. The build is very gas heavy and has many weak points. Note: Not tested on a pro level, just ~3600 masters opponents.
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I've stopped using this really, I only get the void ray at the start for overlord killing and harrassment then switch to colossus+stalkers. The colossus/voidray ball is just too unwieldy and inflexible
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On March 02 2011 00:43 DoctorPhil wrote:
What an intelligent zerg did vs. me doing this once: First he attacks me with a normal ground/corruptor army, does a little damage but not enough. He then immediately made nothing but mutas with his 4-5 hatches, he proceeded to rape me with nothing but mutas, wich a bunch of stalkers and void rays absolutely don't beat.
i've tried this exact build, but 2 chronoboosted stargates and a fucktons of phoenixes denies the shit out of it. the only chance i have at that point is to hope he overdoes air and i win by simply paniclinging his army.
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On February 28 2011 13:57 Rabiator wrote:
What is the advantage of carpet bombing armored Stalkers compared to bombing light Probes?
I think the main difference is that the probes aren't marching across the map providing AA coverage for the collosi that are about to destroy your base.
Banelings drops on mineral lines are great, but if you invest huge amounts into destroying his economy instead of his army, you'll still lose.
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On March 01 2011 20:11 TehForce wrote:
yeah rabiator, do you really think you are the only one who really understands how to play zerg? nice theorycrafting but 90% of the stuff you mentioned is just not practical in a real game -.-
I'm serious.. I even asked him and he says he doesn't own the game at all. Yet he still thinks he should be able to speak
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On March 01 2011 22:01 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 19:37 koolaid1990 wrote:lol so the zerg has to "hide" his tech to beat this build? thats still imbalanced. Over time, tosses will find out that if the zerg keeps denying scout with queens and overseers then its obvious wat build the zerg will do. And a good toss will scout regardless. And here I thought that they said the reason why Colo/VR worked so well was because toss could deny scouting.
It's one of the strengths of the build, yes, but its not like it becomes non-viable the second the zerg sees what's up. The bigger problem, and the one they were addressing, is just that it's such a powerful unit composition.
On March 02 2011 00:43 DoctorPhil wrote:
What an intelligent zerg did vs. me doing this once: First he attacks me with a normal ground/corruptor army, does a little damage but not enough. He then immediately made nothing but mutas with his 4-5 hatches, he proceeded to rape me with nothing but mutas, wich a bunch of stalkers and void rays absolutely don't beat.
Well there's your problem... you say he built nothing but mutas and you continued to make void rays and stalkers? IT sounds more like your incompetance than the strength of mutas. Phoenix rape the shit out of mutas, especialyl once you can micro them, and with 2 bases, 2 nexus for chronoboosting, and stargates up you already have all the necessary infrastructure to crank them out.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:06 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 20:11 TehForce wrote:
yeah rabiator, do you really think you are the only one who really understands how to play zerg? nice theorycrafting but 90% of the stuff you mentioned is just not practical in a real game -.- I'm serious.. I even asked him and he says he doesn't own the game at all. Yet he still thinks he should be able to speak
I call that the definition of stupidity.
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Tbh, when i see this win GSL-S final/semi-final i will say its inbalnced, until then i think that it just stresses the zerg to go for a more agreive play or find some "inbalanced" unit combo when he is on 5 base vs 2 base, I saw zerg going 30 + coruptors killing all your tech then spaming hidra for exemple, might have only worked vs me for noobing it out, but with a race as"volatile" as zerg vs 2 base toss i would sugest giving ppl more time to figure it out.
Also, artosis is a player far better then me, tho he is far from being a code S GSL player in SC2 and Idra is a god dam good player BUT his "crying" history makes me not trust me when talking about balanced~ i say this considering that the guys didn't actually theorycrafted for hours or showed us 10+ reps with this build being used vs every possible counter strategy they just go like: " It was used in GSL and won few games, colo/vr kills every zerg unit, we won 100% games on the ladder with it and idra can't think of something to counter it right now" this is no actual proof that this build is inbalanced imo.
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first i agree but the only way i found to deal with it exepct staying ahead all game is mass queen from day 9 funday monday root cats (:
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On March 02 2011 04:09 mythyasha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 22:01 Aerakin wrote:On March 01 2011 19:37 koolaid1990 wrote:lol so the zerg has to "hide" his tech to beat this build? thats still imbalanced. Over time, tosses will find out that if the zerg keeps denying scout with queens and overseers then its obvious wat build the zerg will do. And a good toss will scout regardless. And here I thought that they said the reason why Colo/VR worked so well was because toss could deny scouting. It's one of the strengths of the build, yes, but its not like it becomes non-viable the second the zerg sees what's up. The bigger problem, and the one they were addressing, is just that it's such a powerful unit composition. Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 00:43 DoctorPhil wrote:
What an intelligent zerg did vs. me doing this once: First he attacks me with a normal ground/corruptor army, does a little damage but not enough. He then immediately made nothing but mutas with his 4-5 hatches, he proceeded to rape me with nothing but mutas, wich a bunch of stalkers and void rays absolutely don't beat. Well there's your problem... you say he built nothing but mutas and you continued to make void rays and stalkers? IT sounds more like your incompetance than the strength of mutas. Phoenix rape the shit out of mutas, especialyl once you can micro them, and with 2 bases, 2 nexus for chronoboosting, and stargates up you already have all the necessary infrastructure to crank them out.
Please... How do you think it went, like this? "oh hey, i completely obliterated his army without sustaining much damage. I still have a huge army left while he has none, whelp, I guess I'd better not take the opportunity to attack him, after all, I have 2 bases and he only 5. I think I'll let him build up a whole new army while my resources run out, yes, a sound plan."
I didn't keep making voids, I warped in a few stalkers after wich my supply was capped. After having just completely oblitarted his army I went to kill some hatches, however he had a lot of hatches, with the batch of larvae that were done after his army was killed, he made only mutas, It was maybe 10 seconds after I won the battle when he had mass mutas. He made almost only ground forces before, so I had too much anti-ground and almost nothing to deal with mutas.
This might be a good tip for zerg, force us to overcommit to anti-ground, then mass mutas before he can respond with counters to it.
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On March 02 2011 04:09 mythyasha wrote:
Well there's your problem... you say he built nothing but mutas and you continued to make void rays and stalkers? IT sounds more like your incompetance than the strength of mutas. Phoenix rape the shit out of mutas, especialyl once you can micro them, and with 2 bases, 2 nexus for chronoboosting, and stargates up you already have all the necessary infrastructure to crank them out.
Don't tell me you're seriously trying to argue that a protoss with two production buildings can out-produce a zerg. That's one of the stupidest claims I've ever heard.
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On March 03 2011 22:22 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:09 mythyasha wrote:
Well there's your problem... you say he built nothing but mutas and you continued to make void rays and stalkers? IT sounds more like your incompetance than the strength of mutas. Phoenix rape the shit out of mutas, especialyl once you can micro them, and with 2 bases, 2 nexus for chronoboosting, and stargates up you already have all the necessary infrastructure to crank them out. Don't tell me you're seriously trying to argue that a protoss with two production buildings can out-produce a zerg. That's one of the stupidest claims I've ever heard.
I don't think he's arguing that the zerg can outproduce him. He's just saying 2 chronoboosted stargates can destroy a muta fleet. The numbers need not equal. 4 phoenixes vs 10 muta, the 4 pheonixes will win.
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On March 03 2011 22:25 Buruguduy wrote:
I don't think he's arguing that the zerg can outproduce him. He's just saying 2 chronoboosted stargates can destroy a muta fleet. The numbers need not equal. 4 phoenixes vs 10 muta, the 4 pheonixes will win.
Yes ultimately if you have mutas flying around doing nothing, a protoss can eventually pump out enough phoenixes to wear them down with micro (assuming no corrupters). That's not the scenario we're talking about here. The zerg player isn't just collecting mutas one at a time, and he isn't flying them around the map so that they can be slowly microed to death. This is about banking larva and resources so that 33 seconds after the zerg first engages with his original army, 25 mutas pop and clean-up everything.
The fact that phoenixes can dominate pure mutas with enough micro is irrelevant. 4 corrupters can take down 10 colossi, for that matter, but it's not going to save an army of hydras sitting in front of the colossi.
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On March 03 2011 22:40 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 22:25 Buruguduy wrote:
I don't think he's arguing that the zerg can outproduce him. He's just saying 2 chronoboosted stargates can destroy a muta fleet. The numbers need not equal. 4 phoenixes vs 10 muta, the 4 pheonixes will win. Yes ultimately if you have mutas flying around doing nothing, a protoss can eventually pump out enough phoenixes to wear them down with micro (assuming no corrupters). That's not the scenario we're talking about here. The zerg player isn't just collecting mutas one at a time, and he isn't flying them around the map so that they can be slowly microed to death. This is about banking larva and resources so that 33 seconds after the zerg first engages with his original army, 25 mutas pop and clean-up everything. The fact that phoenixes can dominate pure mutas with enough micro is irrelevant. 4 corrupters can take down 10 colossi, for that matter, but it's not going to save an army of hydras sitting in front of the colossi.
The difference here being that Phoenix is a super fast unit that can literally kill a muta in 6 shots while still maintain a solid amount of influence over ground units due to graviton.
The corruptor not so much... It kills colossi slowly and dies a horrible death to anything else, save the phoenix.
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On March 03 2011 22:45 Jermstuddog wrote:
The difference here being that Phoenix is a super fast unit that can literally kill a muta in 6 shots while still maintain a solid amount of influence over ground units due to graviton.
The corruptor not so much... It kills colossi slowly and dies a horrible death to anything else, save the phoenix.
Exaggeration and completely beside the point. What matters is that if a large supply of high damage units are tearing up your army, throwing in one or two counter units that trade-off favourably but don't kill all that fast is going to do precisely nothing as far as saving your army goes.
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I use this everytime I FE. However, although it's quite "imbalanced", most of the 3000 master zergs I play are terrible. They don't realize that I have +2 attack on my void rays, and double upgrading on my ground units, near finish (with attack and armor) at around 18 minutes. He had 4 bases, I had around 5.
One time I got a mothership to bolster the void rays/colossi, and you know what happens? I win because I only got half his army, but he jumped the rest in for some reason.
He had no upgrades, too. He raged while knowing that I have 4 bases, and he had 3.
The good zergs break me before it by constantly attacking (army trading before my army gets cost-efficient) or by sheer upgrades, positioning, flanking, etc.
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When are you going to do an episode on the roach/speedling all-in that hits before warp finishes?
to me that's more imba than anything protoss can do
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On March 03 2011 22:56 iChau wrote:
I use this everytime I FE. However, although it's quite "imbalanced", most of the 3000 master zergs I play are terrible. They don't realize that I have +2 attack on my void rays, and double upgrading on my ground units, near finish (with attack and armor) at around 18 minutes. He had 4 bases, I had around 5.
One time I got a mothership to bolster the void rays/colossi, and you know what happens? I win because I only got half his army, but he jumped the rest in for some reason.
He had no upgrades, too. He raged while knowing that I have 4 bases, and he had 3.
The good zergs break me before it by constantly attacking (army trading before my army gets cost-efficient) or by sheer upgrades, positioning, flanking, etc.
That isn't the scenario in question. The scenario is a TWO-base Protoss army.
I still think that it is very easy for Zerg to win vs this by just spamming Roaches and upgrades for them. The Void Rays don't have a high enough damage output and don't come out in enough numbers to defend against mass Roaches, unfortunately, and the Protoss is forced to crank out Immortals instead of teching, and even this can die very easily to mass Roaches. The VR/Colossus deathball is only really scary once it is massive, so Zerg players should respond to it in the same way as Protoss players do vs Muta/ling - by slaughtering the opponent before the Mutas pop.
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EPT
