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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 26 2011 09:39 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:35 deathly rat wrote:
I can't even bring myself to watch this show. Anyone saying one race is seriously OP should just go play that race for a few games and see how the other side feels. ... They have. Please don't comment unless you have watched the show.
Ok, fine I watched the show and now I have a little less respect for both these guys. Can't you see that the whole "counter" argument is circuitous. What they are talking about is almost every unit in the Protoss army all joined together in the perfect proportions like that just happens. There is a ton of things Zerg can do to mess with Protoss trying to get his perfect army, using Nydus worms just one of them that they didn't mention.
Secondly, Idra isn't messing about here. It's his livelyhood, so if he really thinks this is a imbalance or is a perfect strategy then the ONLY sensible thing to do is switch and do it. Every proffesional SC2 player is playing that race only because they think they can win most games using that race and Idra is no different.
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On February 26 2011 10:30 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:39 DoubleReed wrote:On February 26 2011 09:35 deathly rat wrote:
I can't even bring myself to watch this show. Anyone saying one race is seriously OP should just go play that race for a few games and see how the other side feels. ... They have. Please don't comment unless you have watched the show. Ok, fine I watched the show and now I have a little less respect for both these guys. Can't you see that the whole "counter" argument is circuitous. What they are talking about is almost every unit in the Protoss army all joined together in the perfect proportions like that just happens. There is a ton of things Zerg can do to mess with Protoss trying to get his perfect army, using Nydus worms just one of them that they didn't mention. Secondly, Idra isn't messing about here. It's his livelyhood, so if he really thinks this is a imbalance or is a perfect strategy then the ONLY sensible thing to do is switch and do it. Every proffesional SC2 player is playing that race only because they think they can win most games using that race and Idra is no different.
Worms take 20 seconds to burst out of the ground and start unloading and both T and P users have learned already in beta to make Pylons and Depots around their bases to have complete vision over their bases and always know if there is a Nydus showing up.
Worms would require to make holes in that vision and taking into consideration their unload speed, they aren't fast enough to transport whole armies. Making more Nydus Networks and more Worms at once is a significant gas cost.
I'm not really talking about teleporting entire zerg army in an instant to bare bases and always being able to avoid reaction from P army because that would obviously be imbalanced.
And it doesn't have to be necessary to deal the damage needed for Network(s) and Worms to pay for their cost. The problem of complete vision though, requires something more to back up the Worms.
Maybe it's that easy to kill a single Pylon with, for example Mutas and even be prepared to sacrifice a Worm only to keep some portion of Protoss army in his base... but maybe it's not.
It needs to be figured out and it's rather not as easy as it sounds to be when people focus on the idea of teleporting units, killing a bunch of stuff and teleporting those (maybe unharmed) units somewhere else.
And there is definitely more to choosing a race than a win ratio it currently has.
In my opinion, there is no such a thing as the best race. There is only the best race to suit a certain player. It doesn't mean the player is going to be able to use it's full potential or maybe even fully get the specifics of that race, use the best approach when using that race.
And he said himself he invested too much time into Zerg to switch now.
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On February 26 2011 10:30 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:39 DoubleReed wrote:On February 26 2011 09:35 deathly rat wrote:
I can't even bring myself to watch this show. Anyone saying one race is seriously OP should just go play that race for a few games and see how the other side feels. ... They have. Please don't comment unless you have watched the show. Ok, fine I watched the show and now I have a little less respect for both these guys. Can't you see that the whole "counter" argument is circuitous. What they are talking about is almost every unit in the Protoss army all joined together in the perfect proportions like that just happens. There is a ton of things Zerg can do to mess with Protoss trying to get his perfect army, using Nydus worms just one of them that they didn't mention. Secondly, Idra isn't messing about here. It's his livelyhood, so if he really thinks this is a imbalance or is a perfect strategy then the ONLY sensible thing to do is switch and do it. Every proffesional SC2 player is playing that race only because they think they can win most games using that race and Idra is no different.
In the video it's clearly mentioned that protoss is turtling on two base. Because its a turtle play, harassment simply isn't going to be that effective. Nydus worms in particular are not going to be very powerful if the protoss isn't even split up or far from his base.. Why would nydus worms be good? Seriously, nydus? It's not mentioned because it doesn't need mentioning.
Idra has said multiple times that he expects Blizzard to patch and balance the game, and he doesn't want to "race-switch" back and forth like that.
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Next show should be about mules, they are freaking retarded.
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On February 26 2011 10:30 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:39 DoubleReed wrote:On February 26 2011 09:35 deathly rat wrote:
I can't even bring myself to watch this show. Anyone saying one race is seriously OP should just go play that race for a few games and see how the other side feels. ... They have. Please don't comment unless you have watched the show. Ok, fine I watched the show and now I have a little less respect for both these guys. Can't you see that the whole "counter" argument is circuitous. What they are talking about is almost every unit in the Protoss army all joined together in the perfect proportions like that just happens. There is a ton of things Zerg can do to mess with Protoss trying to get his perfect army, using Nydus worms just one of them that they didn't mention. Secondly, Idra isn't messing about here. It's his livelyhood, so if he really thinks this is a imbalance or is a perfect strategy then the ONLY sensible thing to do is switch and do it. Every proffesional SC2 player is playing that race only because they think they can win most games using that race and Idra is no different. If someone brings up nydus worm as a harrass tool one more time, I'm going to punt a baby.
"the ONLY sensible thing to do is switch and do it. Every proffesional SC2 player is playing that race only because they think they can win most games using that race and Idra is no different. "
If this was true, all pro zergs would have switched to terran when Morrows reaper build came out.
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So, the new patch notes on infestors.
Infestor
- Health increased from 90 to 110.
Fungal Growth
- Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
- Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
- Now fires a missile instead of being instant cast.
Don't know about the missile at this time, but this means that fungal does 46 damage over 4 seconds to Colo/Stalker or Colo/VR balls. That is massive DPS increase (from 4.5 DPS to each unit hit to 11.5).
To what extent does this patch help against this ball? It seems like more than doubling the DPS a spell does to the ball certainly helps...does it help enough? That's slightly more DPS than a Corruptor on the Colos, and significantly better than a corrupter against VRs, and over a big AOE.
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What about mass roach harassment? Am I missing something here?
As I know of it, roaches = 75/25 and you can literally spawn 3:1 per warpgate (average 2 hatch vs. 5 gateways robo/stargate).
What does protoss do vs. mass roach? Tech to a void or two? Good luck, continuous roach will obliterate your expo and set you back, significantly, while they tech to hydras (if they have not already).
Roaches are the most broken unit in the game, net to the thor with 250mm cannon.
- Thor 250mm needs to go.
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On February 26 2011 17:30 goodvibes wrote:
What about mass roach harassment? Am I missing something here?
As I know of it, roaches = 75/25 and you can literally spawn 3:1 per warpgate (average 2 hatch vs. 5 gateways robo/stargate).
What does protoss do vs. mass roach? Tech to a void or two? Good luck, continuous roach will obliterate your expo and set you back, significantly, while they tech to hydras (if they have not already).
Roaches are the most broken unit in the game, net to the thor with 250mm cannon.
- Thor 250mm needs to go.
Why does 250 mm cannon need to go? It's more of a show off thing than anything, by the time 250mm cannon is researched and there is enough thors to make it worthwhile to do any amount of damage with it the protoss/zerg should have an extremely healthy army to deny the thor harass or, have the right composition to crush thors/small bio force. I have only seen jinro use the 250mm cannon effectively when the protoss kept massing immortals.
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My problem with this show is that, if this is so imbalanced, why isn't every Protoss doing it vs. Zerg? It definitely looked strong in the GSLTL, but it hasn't re-emerged in the GSL yet. There's got to be some reason for that
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Well lately all the protoss on the ladder are doing this to me.
And let me tell you my win rate vs P has plummeted.
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On February 26 2011 11:19 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 10:30 deathly rat wrote:On February 26 2011 09:39 DoubleReed wrote:On February 26 2011 09:35 deathly rat wrote:
I can't even bring myself to watch this show. Anyone saying one race is seriously OP should just go play that race for a few games and see how the other side feels. ... They have. Please don't comment unless you have watched the show. Ok, fine I watched the show and now I have a little less respect for both these guys. Can't you see that the whole "counter" argument is circuitous. What they are talking about is almost every unit in the Protoss army all joined together in the perfect proportions like that just happens. There is a ton of things Zerg can do to mess with Protoss trying to get his perfect army, using Nydus worms just one of them that they didn't mention. Secondly, Idra isn't messing about here. It's his livelyhood, so if he really thinks this is a imbalance or is a perfect strategy then the ONLY sensible thing to do is switch and do it. Every proffesional SC2 player is playing that race only because they think they can win most games using that race and Idra is no different. Worms take 20 seconds to burst out of the ground and start unloading and both T and P users have learned already in beta to make Pylons and Depots around their bases to have complete vision over their bases and always know if there is a Nydus showing up. Worms would require to make holes in that vision and taking into consideration their unload speed, they aren't fast enough to transport whole armies. Making more Nydus Networks and more Worms at once is a significant gas cost.
Do you really think the pros will have every bit of their base covered on the new and larger-than-Blizzard-GSL-maps? Do you really think that Nydus is only useful if you aim it inside a base? Protoss usually dont wall off their base completely and if you aim the Nydus right outside his base you could rush in and deal damage and be back in time for dinner. The opponent has two choices then: a) rush home to defend the base or b) go for a base trade and in both cases you have the choice of how to respond as a Zerg. The Nydus worm is only useless on the tiny Blizzard maps since the "main army" can be there to catch your army before it has emerged from the worm, but if the Protoss can only defend with "one round of warp-ins" it should be easy enough to deal some damage to the base and delay his economy - which is much more important than killing his army. Sadly Zerg players have labeled the Nydus as "bad" and are unwilling to rethink their strategies.
The same seems true for using Baneling bombs. Over the last few days I have seen several attempts at using Banelings dropped from Overlords ... onto the Stalkers of a Protoss death ball. none of them seemed to work well enough since the Protoss - at that late time - probably has Blink and will shoot down many Overlords before they even deliver their payload. Thus the risk is great and the reward is bad since Stalkers are not light and dont even get any bonus damage from Banelings. Thus I have to ask the Zerg players: What is the advantage of carpet bombing armored Stalkers compared to bombing light Probes?
Lets face it: Zerg loses easily when the opponent is allowed to apply pressure onto them. We see that every time in the GSL when a Zerg loses a pretty one-sided game. So the Zerg MUST apply pressure!!!! You DONT apply pressure by killing an army that is replaced almost immediately, you DO apply pressure by threatening bases and killing workers.
- Nydus Worms (not necessarily into the base but behind the opponent),
- carpet bombing workers and
- burrowed sneak attacks on bases
All of these will make your opponent to invest into things which he didnt want to have ... lots of static base defenses and detection. Even the "mass corruption" from funday monday might have a place although limiting it to the Robotics Facilities would probably be enough to annoy/delay the Protoss big time.
Zerg have several "nifty tricks" which can be used to that end, but they refuse to use them and rather run waves after waves of Zerglings into a bunch of Colossi. That seems pointless to me. Zerg NEED to learn to be more cost effective ...- burrowing Banelings all over the map (including potential expansions or probe transfer paths for your opponent?) is more cost efficient than running 30 of them into a line of Siege Tanks and losing half of them in the process. Zerg just need to take care to do that OFF CREEP because the Terran will most likely use scans to get the tumors ...
- burrowed Infestors can cast their Infested Marine even while burrowed and with the increase in hp in the next patch this might be a much better tactic to use than previously imagined and those infested Marines do not cost any resources except time. You can create quite an army almost instantly somewhere far away from your main force ...
- simply burrowing your Drones when a Banshee attacks might save most of them OR cost the Terran a scan early in the game and you could certainly save many Queens with a timely burrow.
Burrow does one thing to the opponent: It makes him paranoid ... because an opponent could be everywhere. USE THIS instead of saying "100/100 is too expensive".
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Corruptors are such a crappy units<. Their ability needs to do something else like slowing down ground units rate of fire in an AoE or something like that. You need so many to kill that ball that you end up not having any ground army and then blink stalkers kill them off. Then the next wave of Colossi and Void Rays just mows through your base.
In close positions it is imbalanced. I will all-in any toss in close positions until they fix this.
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Roaches are the most broken unit in the game, net to the thor with 250mm cannon.
- Thor 250mm needs to go.
But then Mech will literally be nearly impossible without 250mm for Immortals, more so than now.
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Do people still lose to this? Seems like Zerg on ladder know how to stop this pretty easily now,. maybe it's just the new maps
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If the 2base collosus/voidray is really strong and unbeatable once they get their thing, then zerg HAS to do a timing attack. You shouldn't be looking for a composotion... look for a timing attack.
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lol so the zerg has to "hide" his tech to beat this build? thats still imbalanced. Over time, tosses will find out that if the zerg keeps denying scout with queens and overseers then its obvious wat build the zerg will do. And a good toss will scout regardless.
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Rabiator, I think you shouldn't comment.. why? because you don't even have the game.
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yeah rabiator, do you really think you are the only one who really understands how to play zerg? nice theorycrafting but 90% of the stuff you mentioned is just not practical in a real game -.-
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On February 28 2011 13:57 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 11:19 beetlelisk wrote:On February 26 2011 10:30 deathly rat wrote:On February 26 2011 09:39 DoubleReed wrote:On February 26 2011 09:35 deathly rat wrote:
I can't even bring myself to watch this show. Anyone saying one race is seriously OP should just go play that race for a few games and see how the other side feels. ... They have. Please don't comment unless you have watched the show. Ok, fine I watched the show and now I have a little less respect for both these guys. Can't you see that the whole "counter" argument is circuitous. What they are talking about is almost every unit in the Protoss army all joined together in the perfect proportions like that just happens. There is a ton of things Zerg can do to mess with Protoss trying to get his perfect army, using Nydus worms just one of them that they didn't mention. Secondly, Idra isn't messing about here. It's his livelyhood, so if he really thinks this is a imbalance or is a perfect strategy then the ONLY sensible thing to do is switch and do it. Every proffesional SC2 player is playing that race only because they think they can win most games using that race and Idra is no different. Worms take 20 seconds to burst out of the ground and start unloading and both T and P users have learned already in beta to make Pylons and Depots around their bases to have complete vision over their bases and always know if there is a Nydus showing up. Worms would require to make holes in that vision and taking into consideration their unload speed, they aren't fast enough to transport whole armies. Making more Nydus Networks and more Worms at once is a significant gas cost. Do you really think the pros will have every bit of their base covered on the new and larger-than-Blizzard-GSL-maps? Do you really think that Nydus is only useful if you aim it inside a base? Protoss usually dont wall off their base completely and if you aim the Nydus right outside his base you could rush in and deal damage and be back in time for dinner. The opponent has two choices then: a) rush home to defend the base or b) go for a base trade and in both cases you have the choice of how to respond as a Zerg. The Nydus worm is only useless on the tiny Blizzard maps since the "main army" can be there to catch your army before it has emerged from the worm, but if the Protoss can only defend with "one round of warp-ins" it should be easy enough to deal some damage to the base and delay his economy - which is much more important than killing his army. Sadly Zerg players have labeled the Nydus as "bad" and are unwilling to rethink their strategies. The same seems true for using Baneling bombs. Over the last few days I have seen several attempts at using Banelings dropped from Overlords ... onto the Stalkers of a Protoss death ball. none of them seemed to work well enough since the Protoss - at that late time - probably has Blink and will shoot down many Overlords before they even deliver their payload. Thus the risk is great and the reward is bad since Stalkers are not light and dont even get any bonus damage from Banelings. Thus I have to ask the Zerg players: What is the advantage of carpet bombing armored Stalkers compared to bombing light Probes?Lets face it: Zerg loses easily when the opponent is allowed to apply pressure onto them. We see that every time in the GSL when a Zerg loses a pretty one-sided game. So the Zerg MUST apply pressure!!!! You DONT apply pressure by killing an army that is replaced almost immediately, you DO apply pressure by threatening bases and killing workers. - Nydus Worms (not necessarily into the base but behind the opponent),
- carpet bombing workers and
- burrowed sneak attacks on bases
All of these will make your opponent to invest into things which he didnt want to have ... lots of static base defenses and detection. Even the "mass corruption" from funday monday might have a place although limiting it to the Robotics Facilities would probably be enough to annoy/delay the Protoss big time. Zerg have several "nifty tricks" which can be used to that end, but they refuse to use them and rather run waves after waves of Zerglings into a bunch of Colossi. That seems pointless to me. Zerg NEED to learn to be more cost effective ... - burrowing Banelings all over the map (including potential expansions or probe transfer paths for your opponent?) is more cost efficient than running 30 of them into a line of Siege Tanks and losing half of them in the process. Zerg just need to take care to do that OFF CREEP because the Terran will most likely use scans to get the tumors ...
- burrowed Infestors can cast their Infested Marine even while burrowed and with the increase in hp in the next patch this might be a much better tactic to use than previously imagined and those infested Marines do not cost any resources except time. You can create quite an army almost instantly somewhere far away from your main force ...
- simply burrowing your Drones when a Banshee attacks might save most of them OR cost the Terran a scan early in the game and you could certainly save many Queens with a timely burrow.
Burrow does one thing to the opponent: It makes him paranoid ... because an opponent could be everywhere. USE THIS instead of saying "100/100 is too expensive".
Yoyo Nestea whatsup, can we get link to your account or some high level games to see how good you are  ?
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EPT
