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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On March 21 2011 01:06 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:On March 20 2011 19:58 sleepingdog wrote:On March 20 2011 19:53 AKA. wrote:
A few more stalker, or w/e to respond to a huge tech commitment from the zerg. With "huge tech commitment" you mean building one single tech-structure, like the lair? (Clearly a building you would never build in ZvP [/sarcasm]) The QQ is really getting a bit ridiculous. I'm fine with people complaining about the army-efficiency of void/colossus in itself, but complaining that protoss has such an easy time "tech switching/adjusting" to respond to different compositions of zerg....really? Actually Zerg does have a rather hard time tech-switching since every unit requires an individual building, some which are rather costly. Barracks-factory-starport pretty much opens the entire Terran tech tree and the majority of Protoss units are connected to the cybernetics core in some fashion, but overall Zerg has to spend more resources to gain access to more units. WHAT
He's actually got a point, as long as you're only considering the initial tech switch. Obviously once you're talking about already-built tech, the Zerg larva thing makes the tech switch in mid- or late-game much faster and easier (as long as you don't over-switch and die from not having units while getting more units).
But what has surprised me in SC2 so far is how fast T & P (especially Terran) are teching up... I'm inclined to put it down to a map/lack of perfected timings thing, and perhaps my own imagination that it's really faster than BW, but it seems like T & P are getting tech up faster - basically, to get to the point of this episode, talk about a VR-Colossus build sounds a little weird (from a BW perspective) because they're both expensive units: if you're building towards them then you have to be opening yourself up to attack timings. NOTE: I say this as a spectator only, not a player. I realize idra, artosis, etc. say they've tried this against all sorts of builds, I just think there's got to be either a hole somewhere that simply hasn't been found yet, or it's a map issue, or something.
Alternatively, if it really is imba, because I feel like it's most likely an available timing issue, my first inclination would be to add tech requirements - say, a Twilight Council.
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On March 21 2011 01:06 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:On March 20 2011 19:58 sleepingdog wrote:On March 20 2011 19:53 AKA. wrote:
A few more stalker, or w/e to respond to a huge tech commitment from the zerg. With "huge tech commitment" you mean building one single tech-structure, like the lair? (Clearly a building you would never build in ZvP [/sarcasm]) The QQ is really getting a bit ridiculous. I'm fine with people complaining about the army-efficiency of void/colossus in itself, but complaining that protoss has such an easy time "tech switching/adjusting" to respond to different compositions of zerg....really? Actually Zerg does have a rather hard time tech-switching since every unit requires an individual building, some which are rather costly. Barracks-factory-starport pretty much opens the entire Terran tech tree and the majority of Protoss units are connected to the cybernetics core in some fashion, but overall Zerg has to spend more resources to gain access to more units. WHAT
As in, it is difficult for zerg to tech switch, but when they do, it is a very hard techswitch. This idea that zerg can "suddenly have a bunch of mutas" isn't really true, because they have to morph a spire which takes forever and save up money.
It takes quite a bit of time to go from muta to infestor. But once you do, you can switch quite hard and make a lot of infestors. It is much easier for Terran to get one of every unit. It is very difficult for Zerg to do so.
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You know what'll be super funny? If they made Colossus the reverse void ray, which the more it attacks the more damage it does, Instead Colossus does less damage the longer it attacks. LOL then you wait a bit until the colossus coolsdown again to do max damage. That'll be hilarious to see players micro their colossus attacks to make sure they'ren't doing 3x2 dmg xD
That'll keep them Protoss player on their toes =P
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On March 21 2011 02:49 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:06 junemermaid wrote:On March 21 2011 01:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:On March 20 2011 19:58 sleepingdog wrote:On March 20 2011 19:53 AKA. wrote:
A few more stalker, or w/e to respond to a huge tech commitment from the zerg. With "huge tech commitment" you mean building one single tech-structure, like the lair? (Clearly a building you would never build in ZvP [/sarcasm]) The QQ is really getting a bit ridiculous. I'm fine with people complaining about the army-efficiency of void/colossus in itself, but complaining that protoss has such an easy time "tech switching/adjusting" to respond to different compositions of zerg....really? Actually Zerg does have a rather hard time tech-switching since every unit requires an individual building, some which are rather costly. Barracks-factory-starport pretty much opens the entire Terran tech tree and the majority of Protoss units are connected to the cybernetics core in some fashion, but overall Zerg has to spend more resources to gain access to more units. WHAT As in, it is difficult for zerg to tech switch, but when they do, it is a very hard techswitch. This idea that zerg can "suddenly have a bunch of mutas" isn't really true, because they have to morph a spire which takes forever and save up money. It takes quite a bit of time to go from muta to infestor. But once you do, you can switch quite hard and make a lot of infestors. It is much easier for Terran to get one of every unit. It is very difficult for Zerg to do so.
Since its very uncommon for Zerg in ZvP to put up Spire in midgame.. /sarcasm
Zerg is the easiest race to tech switch thats why its a reactionary race...... bcs you should ALREADY have all the required buildings to beat this build, or any other in ZvP for that reason... / roach warren, Pool obv.., Hydra den, Spire... thats what EVERY normal zerg gets in this matchup.
this strat has already been figured out, as multiple people in this thread already said... see couple pages down below, there are replays of zerg beating p with several strats.. one of the easiest just go mass corrupter, since once p losses his voidrays they gone and colossi gone too so z just have to ling rush -> gg
i would argue 80% of the people posting in this thread havent even saw the replay and trying to see the EXACT! build the guy did... he did NOT open colossi he did open 2 sentry air... then got colossi later on, and was on 5 gate..
one big thing why this strat worked was bcs he could easily defend his 2nd with the early air, and take the 3rd without having to worry about getting the 2nd attacked... he could defend 3 bases on this map..
on almost all blizzard ladder maps u cant do this, and keep in mind that in that particular match p WAS able to take 3rd... the map was just very good for it..
but honestly, do you really believe that the guy would do such a strat if he would know that its unbeatable or 'imbalanced'?? why the FUCK would he do reveal his strat or his team reavealing it on a tournament where the winner gets like 8k for the whole team... srsly..
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I wouldn't say that it's hard to tech switch as Zerg, but it's definitely not as easy as everyone likes to think. Spire takes 100 seconds to build. 100. That's the same as building a hatchery. As a point of comparison, Starport takes 50 (half that), Factory takes 60, Starport takes , Stargate Takes 60, and Robo Bay takes 65. Telling me to blindly throw up a Spire in the mid game where I need money for Hydralisks and Roach upgrades to counter your Gateway Army (and perhaps Stargate tech too, if you revealed a Pheonix), is like telling you to blindly get a Templar Archive for Feedback, just out of fear of the Infestor. Except that doesn't even apply, since Protoss doesn't fear the Infestor nearly as much as Zergs fear the Colossi. The problem here is that a.) Zergs are blind and b.) What we don't know will stomp our army in two damn seconds, and all we're left is pumping out a.) glass cannon hydralisks to stop Void Rays yet die to Colossi, b.) Pumping out Roaches, who will die to said Void rays but MAY kill the Colossi, or c.) Getting 20 Corruptors (one shot colossi) and then getting killed by Void Rays and Stalkers. Look at the Help screen and look up Corruptor. You know what's the hard counter to it? Void Ray.
I do believe that Zerg is a reactionary race, but if you watched the show you probably heard that it's hard to scout as Zerg. It really, truly is. Stalker and even Sentries can deny any sort of scouting, and Colossi are so mobile it's easy to hide them. Especially if it's JUST two base, covering up areas where overlords can infiltrate is pretty damn easy.
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what happened to this show
too much making fun made them hide?
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On April 08 2011 05:41 pandaminion wrote:
I wouldn't say that it's hard to tech switch as Zerg, but it's definitely not as easy as everyone likes to think. Spire takes 100 seconds to build. 100. That's the same as building a hatchery. As a point of comparison, Starport takes 50 (half that), Factory takes 60, Starport takes , Stargate Takes 60, and Robo Bay takes 65. Telling me to blindly throw up a Spire in the mid game where I need money for Hydralisks and Roach upgrades to counter your Gateway Army (and perhaps Stargate tech too, if you revealed a Pheonix), is like telling you to blindly get a Templar Archive for Feedback, just out of fear of the Infestor. Except that doesn't even apply, since Protoss doesn't fear the Infestor nearly as much as Zergs fear the Colossi. The problem here is that a.) Zergs are blind and b.) What we don't know will stomp our army in two damn seconds, and all we're left is pumping out a.) glass cannon hydralisks to stop Void Rays yet die to Colossi, b.) Pumping out Roaches, who will die to said Void rays but MAY kill the Colossi, or c.) Getting 20 Corruptors (one shot colossi) and then getting killed by Void Rays and Stalkers. Look at the Help screen and look up Corruptor. You know what's the hard counter to it? Void Ray.
I do believe that Zerg is a reactionary race, but if you watched the show you probably heard that it's hard to scout as Zerg. It really, truly is. Stalker and even Sentries can deny any sort of scouting, and Colossi are so mobile it's easy to hide them. Especially if it's JUST two base, covering up areas where overlords can infiltrate is pretty damn easy.
no its not hard to scout, and you getting way off here... the show was about THIS specific build, and there are already numberous counters to it, like i said...
if you die to the early voidrays, then u just a weak player, period.. u just have to make 1 more queen and u wont die
corrupter is the counter to this combo, bcs once u have enough u just a click and kill all the voids, protoss has to stay 2 base, if he expanding u attack him.. reproduce out of your 4 hatcheries, and u won the game... protoss cant reproduce fast enough to get air superiority back... so he cant do any more colossi/voidrays.. then its zerg with 4 bases vs protoss + gateway units on 2 base, and if u loose this, u just a bad player
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On April 08 2011 05:42 darkscream wrote:
what happened to this show
too much making fun made them hide?
Idra moved to America. I assume that might slow things down for a while for IMBALANCED.
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On April 08 2011 05:42 darkscream wrote:
what happened to this show
too much making fun made them hide?
they got their toss whining done so they stopped making it.
or maybe its cause idra went home 
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On April 09 2011 00:41 TheResidentEvil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 05:42 darkscream wrote:
what happened to this show
too much making fun made them hide? they got their toss whining done so they stopped making it. or maybe its cause idra went home
i have a feeling the whole thing was to bring attention to this specific whine. mission accomplished, no more episodes!
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I'm just wondering if anyone has tried using mutas to counter this kind of army? im not saying pure muta but also like incorporating it instead of using corruptors? would it be able to work?
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EPT
