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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On March 15 2011 19:29 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 18:12 Ultramus wrote:
I was confounded, our armies were similar cost, and yet mine was completely demolished. Toss units are just too goddamn efficient, I have no idea how to beat the composition he had, POSSIBLY mass muta but that leaves me so vulnerable to dying to literally anything else, and I would have had to commit to them so early. He also made 8-9 cannons at his third and 4th base and attacked before I could try to snipe any of them.
i really doubt you had similar cost at even food with your numbers. replay? Most Zerg Units are most effective during Early/Lategame due to beeing cheap, thus having more food then your opponent. On even food obviously the other races have the advantage. (if you still have only those cheap units from early/midgame i.e. roaches) You obviously don't deal enough dps to matter.
I actually had similar cost with more supply; I had less workers at this point. I had 20 supply more in my army, which means little because the roach is such a supply eating unit.
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On March 15 2011 00:36 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 00:59 ssregitoss wrote:
why there is no vr collo build in march gsl? as all of you mentioned it is imblance.so why no gsl match in match didnot end like this? only one match you are talking about 65 pages. Because it's a build that works against NA diamond zergs, not GSL players.
That's not what they say in the video. They claim that there isn't an obvious way to beat it. Of course you can get lucky or your opponent could mess up and put himself in a vulnerable position, but they claim that sticking with this composition and playing well, the protoss is unreasonably difficult to defeat with zerg.
Not saying I agree, just clarifying the point.
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On March 15 2011 05:10 etceteraetcetera wrote:
And yes, that is a serious question for anyone who can answer for me, how could I have played that better? The only thing I can think of is that my multitasking is great, but the only thing I feel I could have done was to be absolutely PERFECT with it by having changelings and my eyes on his production at ALL times, and it's not that hard for a toss to start picking off changelings when you've already sent about three in that game.
If this is a serious question, a replay will be required. Or did you post one earlier?
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Actually Tyler vs Haypro game 4 in Pax East finals, can be an example on how a zerg can win against this composition. The ways haypro managed to survive was through:
- good use of a lot of corruptors
- remaxing a tiny bit faster than the protoss in order to trade armies effectively
- superior macro and a 1 base advantage
- attacking before the protoss was ever able to have a critical mass of vr.
Of course Tyler made a few mystakes that game such as missrallying a few vr, maybe not expanding enough and powering hard enough, making it a bit hard to have a final word about it, but all in all I think the strat Haypro used was sane.
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If I had to guess at way this seems unbalanced for zerg, I would say its due to the fact that the colossus is a splash damage unit while nothing in the zerg composition deals splash.
I'm just guessing here but roach/hydra is not great vs splash damage and all voids have to do is distract corruptors long enough to let collosus melt everything.
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Zerg's lack of splash definitely hurts it. Splash makes stuff wayy more cost effective, and zerg has very little of it except banelings and infestors (sorta), where banelings are harder to use than most other splash.
Theres just so much clumping in this game that everything either revolves around strong units like rines, and then into AOE damage. AOE was strong in BW, but its even deadlier here. It's almost overcentralizing.
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+1 void collosis too efficent
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It is legitimate that they mentioned counters to the zerg counters because of how LITTLE the protoss has to change to put the counter together. A few more stalker, or w/e to respond to a huge tech commitment from the zerg. All the mentioned counters vs zerg already have the necessary infrastructure built and ready to go.
For instance say the zerg goes mass corrupter, and is scouted. The protoss adds a few more stalkers from his already existing gateways. Now the zerg scouts this subtle shift, but is required to perform a massive tech switch to respond? In reality he cant respond to such a minor shift, resources and time wont allow it. The zerg cannot win the counter war.
Also, the mass muta thing. VR are no longer hard countered by mutas after a critical mass, add in a guardian shield and some stalkers, and all you have is a bunch of extremely fragile flyers dealing next to no AoE. Not to mention the fact the protoss can start pheonix production at any time.
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Id like everyone in this thread to realize that the video is not calling the composition or the units involved unbalanced but the particular referenced build. Im not sure if people didn't watch it, but the number who dismiss it as a colossus hate video, or quote players who have beat these units comps in entirely different circumstances amazes me.
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On March 20 2011 19:53 AKA. wrote:
A few more stalker, or w/e to respond to a huge tech commitment from the zerg.
With "huge tech commitment" you mean building one single tech-structure, like the lair? (Clearly a building you would never build in ZvP [/sarcasm])
The QQ is really getting a bit ridiculous. I'm fine with people complaining about the army-efficiency of void/colossus in itself, but complaining that protoss has such an easy time "tech switching/adjusting" to respond to different compositions of zerg....really?
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Why are people even still arguing about this, barely any Protoss even use this build anymore, at least in higher level play. Took Zerg like what, 2-3 months to finally realize to over make corrupters? :/
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:34 Shooks wrote:
Why are people even still arguing about this, barely any Protoss even use this build anymore, at least in higher level play. Took Zerg like what, 2-3 months to finally realize to over make corrupters? :/
Please go back under the rock.
Watch the cruncher vs idra game from justin.tv invitational
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On March 20 2011 23:55 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 23:34 Shooks wrote:
Why are people even still arguing about this, barely any Protoss even use this build anymore, at least in higher level play. Took Zerg like what, 2-3 months to finally realize to over make corrupters? :/ Please go back under the rock. Watch the cruncher vs idra game from justin.tv invitational
Oh yes 1 game obviously means there's no counter and it's unstoppable, and I doubt IdrA would lose to a Col/vr/zealot 2 base push which is what this thread is about. Pretty sure I've seen Cruncher play and he always does it off 3+ bases with stalkers replacing most the zealots. Am I right, bronzie?
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Is there a VOD for Idra vs Cruncher? Couldn't find one.
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I find it funny that most of the time I see this used it doesn't work, and yet it's considered so imbalanced. And not just in pro games, on streams as well.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:02 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 23:55 Gunman_csz wrote:On March 20 2011 23:34 Shooks wrote:
Why are people even still arguing about this, barely any Protoss even use this build anymore, at least in higher level play. Took Zerg like what, 2-3 months to finally realize to over make corrupters? :/ Please go back under the rock. Watch the cruncher vs idra game from justin.tv invitational Oh yes 1 game obviously means there's no counter and it's unstoppable, and I doubt IdrA would lose to a Col/vr/zealot 2 base push which is what this thread is about. Pretty sure I've seen Cruncher play and he always does it off 3+ bases with stalkers replacing most the zealots. Am I right, bronzie?
Its about thep deathball of VR/collosi you jackass not a "timing push" you are completely clueless aren't you?
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On March 21 2011 00:16 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 00:02 Shooks wrote:On March 20 2011 23:55 Gunman_csz wrote:On March 20 2011 23:34 Shooks wrote:
Why are people even still arguing about this, barely any Protoss even use this build anymore, at least in higher level play. Took Zerg like what, 2-3 months to finally realize to over make corrupters? :/ Please go back under the rock. Watch the cruncher vs idra game from justin.tv invitational Oh yes 1 game obviously means there's no counter and it's unstoppable, and I doubt IdrA would lose to a Col/vr/zealot 2 base push which is what this thread is about. Pretty sure I've seen Cruncher play and he always does it off 3+ bases with stalkers replacing most the zealots. Am I right, bronzie? Its about thep deathball of VR/collosi you jackass not a "timing push" you are completely clueless aren't you?
Huh? Wasn't the Imbalanced EP about turtling on 2 bases with mass VR/collosi with zealots (since you have no gas to support stalkers). Please don't call me names, you hurt my feelings
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On March 21 2011 00:18 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 00:16 Gunman_csz wrote:On March 21 2011 00:02 Shooks wrote:On March 20 2011 23:55 Gunman_csz wrote:On March 20 2011 23:34 Shooks wrote:
Why are people even still arguing about this, barely any Protoss even use this build anymore, at least in higher level play. Took Zerg like what, 2-3 months to finally realize to over make corrupters? :/ Please go back under the rock. Watch the cruncher vs idra game from justin.tv invitational Oh yes 1 game obviously means there's no counter and it's unstoppable, and I doubt IdrA would lose to a Col/vr/zealot 2 base push which is what this thread is about. Pretty sure I've seen Cruncher play and he always does it off 3+ bases with stalkers replacing most the zealots. Am I right, bronzie? Its about thep deathball of VR/collosi you jackass not a "timing push" you are completely clueless aren't you? Huh? Wasn't the Imbalanced EP about turtling on 2 bases with mass VR/collosi with zealots (since you have no gas to support stalkers). Please don't call me names, you hurt my feelings
Yes. I t was specifically about this build order, not about VR/Colo composition in general.
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United States15275 Posts
On March 20 2011 19:58 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 19:53 AKA. wrote:
A few more stalker, or w/e to respond to a huge tech commitment from the zerg. With "huge tech commitment" you mean building one single tech-structure, like the lair? (Clearly a building you would never build in ZvP [/sarcasm]) The QQ is really getting a bit ridiculous. I'm fine with people complaining about the army-efficiency of void/colossus in itself, but complaining that protoss has such an easy time "tech switching/adjusting" to respond to different compositions of zerg....really?
Actually Zerg does have a rather hard time tech-switching since every unit requires an individual building, some which are rather costly. Barracks-factory-starport pretty much opens the entire Terran tech tree and the majority of Protoss units are connected to the cybernetics core in some fashion, but overall Zerg has to spend more resources to gain access to more units.
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On March 21 2011 01:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 19:58 sleepingdog wrote:On March 20 2011 19:53 AKA. wrote:
A few more stalker, or w/e to respond to a huge tech commitment from the zerg. With "huge tech commitment" you mean building one single tech-structure, like the lair? (Clearly a building you would never build in ZvP [/sarcasm]) The QQ is really getting a bit ridiculous. I'm fine with people complaining about the army-efficiency of void/colossus in itself, but complaining that protoss has such an easy time "tech switching/adjusting" to respond to different compositions of zerg....really? Actually Zerg does have a rather hard time tech-switching since every unit requires an individual building, some which are rather costly. Barracks-factory-starport pretty much opens the entire Terran tech tree and the majority of Protoss units are connected to the cybernetics core in some fashion, but overall Zerg has to spend more resources to gain access to more units.
WHAT
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EPT
