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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf
You do realize cols are the only high DPS protoss army has right? Gateway units are shit espicaly vs like roach/MMM so protoss almost as to build colls just to stay in game and fight till they get HTS.
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On February 25 2011 12:55 FreezingAssassin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf You do realize cols are the only high DPS protoss army has right? Gateway units are shit espicaly vs like roach/MMM so protoss almost as to build colls just to stay in game and fight till they get HTS.
yes i do, but when they make so many that your corrupters cant kill them fast enough, or the toss is just really good at turtling, its a little too much. Toss can still make them but making to many can hurt him in the end too, just using them as siege dps is enough damage.
It would open up new strategies to protoss players who make only cols vs zerg.
Have protoss players completely forgot about high templars in this match up?
I'm a Bw player and i feel that there a very strong unit vs zerg
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United States7483 Posts
On February 25 2011 13:03 ChefStarCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 12:55 FreezingAssassin wrote:On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf You do realize cols are the only high DPS protoss army has right? Gateway units are shit espicaly vs like roach/MMM so protoss almost as to build colls just to stay in game and fight till they get HTS. yes i do, but when they make so many that your corrupters cant kill them fast enough, or the toss is just really good at turtling, its a little too much. Toss can still make them but making to many can hurt him in the end too, just using them as siege dps is enough damage. It would open up new strategies to protoss players who make only cols vs zerg. Have protoss players completely forgot about high templars in this match up? I'm a Bw player and i feel that there a very strong unit vs zerg
No, they haven't but it's very hard to use them for two reasons. One, they take forever to field and are extremely gas heavy. The only reasonably 'efficient' composition with high templars is zealot/templar, which is just terrible vs. zerg. You really need immortals in there too, and stalkers, not to mention sentries. For that type of play, you need 3 or more bases mining gas, which is really hard to get vs. zerg. Storm is also awful vs. roaches for example.
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On February 25 2011 13:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 13:03 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 12:55 FreezingAssassin wrote:On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf You do realize cols are the only high DPS protoss army has right? Gateway units are shit espicaly vs like roach/MMM so protoss almost as to build colls just to stay in game and fight till they get HTS. yes i do, but when they make so many that your corrupters cant kill them fast enough, or the toss is just really good at turtling, its a little too much. Toss can still make them but making to many can hurt him in the end too, just using them as siege dps is enough damage. It would open up new strategies to protoss players who make only cols vs zerg. Have protoss players completely forgot about high templars in this match up? I'm a Bw player and i feel that there a very strong unit vs zerg No, they haven't but it's very hard to use them for two reasons. One, they take forever to field and are extremely gas heavy. The only reasonably 'efficient' composition with high templars is zealot/templar, which is just terrible vs. zerg. You really need immortals in there too, and stalkers, not to mention sentries. For that type of play, you need 3 or more bases mining gas, which is really hard to get vs. zerg. Storm is also awful vs. roaches for example.
We can sit here and debate what beats what, and it will go on forever. This change will only open up new doors to protoss players, they may lose at first, but thats how things go in the rts world.
Once a new build becomes popular this will be in the past its not a big issue that the col is such a important crutch that if it damaged its own units they would have to actually reconsider only massing cols.
blink micro is a very reasonable response.
If he so happens to fungal then players will learn to try new things and maybe not sink so much into huge col numbers
Players will configure the ideal col numbers and things will start to work them selfs out.
Only damaging shields could be a less drastic change, but i feel thats still being a little to nice
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On February 25 2011 08:03 Cloudshade wrote:Yea...sure this can be done...but not all zergs are at this calibur of play haha....Catz is just nuts is all..but also, I keep saying....zerg just don't know how to use their variety of units to the max yet....lots of units are still underused...while terran and protoss make full use of all their units now...
And how can terran and protoss just max out their potential but zerg cant? It has a bit to do with the learning curve. People saying "well other races have better players" seems to be such a cop out. Maybe they're having an easier transition for a reason?
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At the end, Artosis said "I'm gonna stop practicing the build because I think it's just too good."
NOOOO. Don't stop doing strong builds because you think they are imbalanced. Competitive games are all about exploiting things and finding the best way to achieve victory. If people stopped using these builds because they felt too good, then Blizzard would be far less inclined to balance anything because it would seem like nothing. The best way to achieve a perfectly balanced game is for everyone to do the strongest (most abusive?) builds they can. What we really need are more players like piqliq to start winning tournaments. Broodwar took years to balance and I'm sure SC2 is not balanced this early, so the most we can do is try to speed up the balancing process.
So if you really think it's imbalanced, use it more and more, and encourage others to use it. That's the only way that it will ever get balanced.
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And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf
wut
Would removing friendly fire from tanks be considered a buff then? o.O
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On February 25 2011 13:46 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf wut Would removing friendly fire from tanks be considered a buff then? o.O
It would be, then they would make allot more tanks
It would be a nerf, don't get me wrong. A nerf not in the sense that takes away its effectiveness, but rather just limits it.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 25 2011 13:51 ChefStarCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 13:46 Tyrant0 wrote:And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf wut Would removing friendly fire from tanks be considered a buff then? o.O It would be, then they would make allot more tanks It would be a nerf, don't get me wrong. A nerf not in the sense that takes away its effectiveness, but rather just limits it.
They would be unusable, they'd just make zerglings and swarm your army while your colossi kill your own units for them.
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On February 25 2011 13:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 13:51 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 13:46 Tyrant0 wrote:And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf wut Would removing friendly fire from tanks be considered a buff then? o.O It would be, then they would make allot more tanks It would be a nerf, don't get me wrong. A nerf not in the sense that takes away its effectiveness, but rather just limits it. They would be unusable, they'd just make zerglings and swarm your army while your colossi kill your own units for them.
That could be one scenario, don't forget forcefields though if the toss dosent use those then its likely to be a game losing combination.
It will only prove ff being more useful vs the zerg army
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On February 25 2011 13:20 orotoss wrote:
At the end, Artosis said "I'm gonna stop practicing the build because I think it's just too good."
NOOOO. Don't stop doing strong builds because you think they are imbalanced. Competitive games are all about exploiting things and finding the best way to achieve victory. If people stopped using these builds because they felt too good, then Blizzard would be far less inclined to balance anything because it would seem like nothing. The best way to achieve a perfectly balanced game is for everyone to do the strongest (most abusive?) builds they can. What we really need are more players like piqliq to start winning tournaments. Broodwar took years to balance and I'm sure SC2 is not balanced this early, so the most we can do is try to speed up the balancing process.
So if you really think it's imbalanced, use it more and more, and encourage others to use it. That's the only way that it will ever get balanced.
Oh, wow. I didn't notice that when I watched it. Artosis is a scrub? Tsk tsk.
Of course, the best way to find out if a build is really OP is to just use it non-stop. Eventually you either fly up to the top of the ladder (proving you right) or start losing (proving you wrong).
I think a lot of the Zergs who find this imba (or anything, actually) should switch to Protoss a while and just do it. Eventually you'll feel the weaknesses that you don't see from the Zerg perspective.
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While messing with the unit tester map, I think Ultra Hydra is the only thing that can beat it, this is without any micro involved though, and walking colossus up a ramp or using them to focus the hydras down instead of how they get caught up with the ultras might make the unit composition completely useless.
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On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf
This sounds like the prime example of someone suggesting ideas for a race he doesn't personally play. It would break balance, not fix it. It's like me saying that banelings should to friendly fire to zerglings, it's just as silly.
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On February 25 2011 13:14 ChefStarCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 13:09 Whitewing wrote:On February 25 2011 13:03 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 12:55 FreezingAssassin wrote:On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf You do realize cols are the only high DPS protoss army has right? Gateway units are shit espicaly vs like roach/MMM so protoss almost as to build colls just to stay in game and fight till they get HTS. yes i do, but when they make so many that your corrupters cant kill them fast enough, or the toss is just really good at turtling, its a little too much. Toss can still make them but making to many can hurt him in the end too, just using them as siege dps is enough damage. It would open up new strategies to protoss players who make only cols vs zerg. Have protoss players completely forgot about high templars in this match up? I'm a Bw player and i feel that there a very strong unit vs zerg No, they haven't but it's very hard to use them for two reasons. One, they take forever to field and are extremely gas heavy. The only reasonably 'efficient' composition with high templars is zealot/templar, which is just terrible vs. zerg. You really need immortals in there too, and stalkers, not to mention sentries. For that type of play, you need 3 or more bases mining gas, which is really hard to get vs. zerg. Storm is also awful vs. roaches for example. We can sit here and debate what beats what, and it will go on forever. This change will only open up new doors to protoss players, they may lose at first, but thats how things go in the rts world. Once a new build becomes popular this will be in the past its not a big issue that the col is such a important crutch that if it damaged its own units they would have to actually reconsider only massing cols. blink micro is a very reasonable response. If he so happens to fungal then players will learn to try new things and maybe not sink so much into huge col numbers Players will configure the ideal col numbers and things will start to work them selfs out. Only damaging shields could be a less drastic change, but i feel thats still being a little to nice
Look, right now the metagame is basically hydra>every unit in toss except colo/temps and colo>hydra. This is why toss go to colossus. Rushing templars puts you too behind and if zerg just mass roaches it negates a lot of the effect and can easy deny you the 3rd. I really do want to use other units but guess what unless roach/hydra get worse you can't nerf colossus. Gateway doesnt scale against anything in this game.
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On February 25 2011 19:10 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 13:14 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 13:09 Whitewing wrote:On February 25 2011 13:03 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 12:55 FreezingAssassin wrote:On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf You do realize cols are the only high DPS protoss army has right? Gateway units are shit espicaly vs like roach/MMM so protoss almost as to build colls just to stay in game and fight till they get HTS. yes i do, but when they make so many that your corrupters cant kill them fast enough, or the toss is just really good at turtling, its a little too much. Toss can still make them but making to many can hurt him in the end too, just using them as siege dps is enough damage. It would open up new strategies to protoss players who make only cols vs zerg. Have protoss players completely forgot about high templars in this match up? I'm a Bw player and i feel that there a very strong unit vs zerg No, they haven't but it's very hard to use them for two reasons. One, they take forever to field and are extremely gas heavy. The only reasonably 'efficient' composition with high templars is zealot/templar, which is just terrible vs. zerg. You really need immortals in there too, and stalkers, not to mention sentries. For that type of play, you need 3 or more bases mining gas, which is really hard to get vs. zerg. Storm is also awful vs. roaches for example. We can sit here and debate what beats what, and it will go on forever. This change will only open up new doors to protoss players, they may lose at first, but thats how things go in the rts world. Once a new build becomes popular this will be in the past its not a big issue that the col is such a important crutch that if it damaged its own units they would have to actually reconsider only massing cols. blink micro is a very reasonable response. If he so happens to fungal then players will learn to try new things and maybe not sink so much into huge col numbers Players will configure the ideal col numbers and things will start to work them selfs out. Only damaging shields could be a less drastic change, but i feel thats still being a little to nice Look, right now the metagame is basically hydra>every unit in toss and colo>hydra. This is why toss go to colossus. Rushing templars puts you too behind and if zerg just mass roaches it negates a lot of the effect and can easy deny you the 3rd. I really do want to use other units but guess what unless roach/hydra get worse you can't nerf colossus. Gateway doesnt scale against anything in this game.
Collosus/HT/Sentry+zealot > Hydra*
In any case, the only point in the game imo where zerg has an advantage is when he's on 3 bases, protoss is on 2, and he can deny the protoss third with roach/corruptor.
And the strangth of the protoss army is not the same as the zerg, as zerg, you want either mass one unit, or mass two units, as protoss the ultimate combo is a little of 8 different units, collosi are weak by themself, but with stalkers for air support and tanking, they're suddently incredibly powerful.
A unit like the zealot, archon or high templar are useless by thmself, but when they work with the "Protoss deathball" they enhance it with their own attirubute, have you ever seen a zerg go Ultralisk with hydras? No, because they don't work well together, even though it's the same ideals as zealot+stalker, tanking and damage, but the unit costs and unit scales, movement speed, a lot of things are to be considered, a zerg army of 8 kind of different zerg units would be horrible, because the units don't work well together.
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On February 25 2011 20:01 Bagonad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 19:10 xbankx wrote:On February 25 2011 13:14 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 13:09 Whitewing wrote:On February 25 2011 13:03 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 12:55 FreezingAssassin wrote:On February 25 2011 12:34 ChefStarCraft wrote:
I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf You do realize cols are the only high DPS protoss army has right? Gateway units are shit espicaly vs like roach/MMM so protoss almost as to build colls just to stay in game and fight till they get HTS. yes i do, but when they make so many that your corrupters cant kill them fast enough, or the toss is just really good at turtling, its a little too much. Toss can still make them but making to many can hurt him in the end too, just using them as siege dps is enough damage. It would open up new strategies to protoss players who make only cols vs zerg. Have protoss players completely forgot about high templars in this match up? I'm a Bw player and i feel that there a very strong unit vs zerg No, they haven't but it's very hard to use them for two reasons. One, they take forever to field and are extremely gas heavy. The only reasonably 'efficient' composition with high templars is zealot/templar, which is just terrible vs. zerg. You really need immortals in there too, and stalkers, not to mention sentries. For that type of play, you need 3 or more bases mining gas, which is really hard to get vs. zerg. Storm is also awful vs. roaches for example. We can sit here and debate what beats what, and it will go on forever. This change will only open up new doors to protoss players, they may lose at first, but thats how things go in the rts world. Once a new build becomes popular this will be in the past its not a big issue that the col is such a important crutch that if it damaged its own units they would have to actually reconsider only massing cols. blink micro is a very reasonable response. If he so happens to fungal then players will learn to try new things and maybe not sink so much into huge col numbers Players will configure the ideal col numbers and things will start to work them selfs out. Only damaging shields could be a less drastic change, but i feel thats still being a little to nice Look, right now the metagame is basically hydra>every unit in toss and colo>hydra. This is why toss go to colossus. Rushing templars puts you too behind and if zerg just mass roaches it negates a lot of the effect and can easy deny you the 3rd. I really do want to use other units but guess what unless roach/hydra get worse you can't nerf colossus. Gateway doesnt scale against anything in this game. Collosus/HT/Sentry+zealot > Hydra* In any case, the only point in the game imo where zerg has an advantage is when he's on 3 bases, protoss is on 2, and he can deny the protoss third with roach/corruptor. And the strangth of the protoss army is not the same as the zerg, as zerg, you want either mass one unit, or mass two units, as protoss the ultimate combo is a little of 8 different units, collosi are weak by themself, but with stalkers for air support and tanking, they're suddently incredibly powerful. A unit like the zealot, archon or high templar are useless by thmself, but when they work with the "Protoss deathball" they enhance it with their own attirubute, have you ever seen a zerg go Ultralisk with hydras? No, because they don't work well together, even though it's the same ideals as zealot+stalker, tanking and damage, but the unit costs and unit scales, movement speed, a lot of things are to be considered, a zerg army of 8 kind of different zerg units would be horrible, because the units don't work well together.
I meant every non-aoe units but yea. Toss gateway units are just weak to balance warpgate.
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On February 25 2011 14:07 ChefStarCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 13:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 25 2011 13:51 ChefStarCraft wrote:On February 25 2011 13:46 Tyrant0 wrote:And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf wut Would removing friendly fire from tanks be considered a buff then? o.O It would be, then they would make allot more tanks It would be a nerf, don't get me wrong. A nerf not in the sense that takes away its effectiveness, but rather just limits it. They would be unusable, they'd just make zerglings and swarm your army while your colossi kill your own units for them. That could be one scenario, don't forget forcefields though if the toss dosent use those then its likely to be a game losing combination. It will only prove ff being more useful vs the zerg army
Nice troll, disguised as an attempt at constructive criticism. By the same token, lets also make banelings damage friendly units.
Any nerf to collosus should be offset by a buff to gateway units, which are frankly horrible in mid/late game vs zerg. Cost for cost, roach/hydra (or even pure roach) beats every single gateway unit, and become 10x more effective once upgrades start to kick in because of horrible unit scaling. Also HTs are horrible vs roaches which almost seem to regenerate health faster than storm damages them when burrowed.
However any buff to toss gateway will lead to strategies like 4 gate being extremely hard to counter, so blizzard has to walk a fine line in balancing.
Meanwhile I would like to request arm chair quarterbackers like yourself to stop offering balance suggestions, because they are frankly shit.
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Protoss has no Cost efficient Unit against Mass Hydralisk cost to cost except colossus.
any to colossus has to be thought out, well cause Hydra Timing pushes will screw Protoss over.
So any Colossus Nerf will have to be in conjuction with a Gateway (Stalker) buff.
a Hydra does twice the DPS to Stalker than Stalker does to Hydras,
but hydras are cheaper and scale way better with upgrades
Unlike Against terran (2 Marines are compareble to Hydras damagewise) but due to the lesser basedamage Guardian Shield is effective.
In the End in every matchup Protoss has to "rush" to AoE Units (if he doesn't aim to end it in the early game)
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On February 25 2011 21:19 freetgy wrote:
Protoss has no Cost efficient Unit against Mass Hydralisk cost to cost except colossus.
any to colossus has to be thought out, well cause Hydra Timing pushes will screw Protoss over.
So any Colossus Nerf will have to be in conjuction with a Gateway (Stalker) buff.
a Hydra does twice the DPS to Stalker than Stalker does to Hydras,
but hydras are cheaper and scale way better with upgrades
Lonely hydras aren't a problem, its the beefy roach that tanks so much damage, and also deals much.
The dps of roach / hydra is just way way way way to much to handle without aoe against both, even against masssssssssssssssssssssssss roaches you need aoe
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EPT
