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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:
Most of you are actually clueless about zerg.
Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise.
whats this heavy tech investment?, get me some numbers
so Protoss gets
2 Starport each 150/150
a robo 200/100,
a Robobay for 200/200 (+ Range 200/200)
+ 6 Gateways each 150/0
but Zerg can't get in time?
Lair 150/100
Roach Warren 100/0
Hydra Den 100/100
Spire 200/200
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On February 24 2011 21:03 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:
Most of you are actually clueless about zerg.
Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise.
whats this heavy tech investment, get me some numbers
Spire cost 200/200, 120 sec production, and need lair 150/100. To get colossi you need robotic facilities (200/100 gaz and 65s production) and robotic bay (200/200 and 65s production) not to mention cybernetic core which is irrelevant (150 mineral and 50s).
20 mutas cost 2 000/2 000, 5 void ray, 2 Colossi and 10 stalker cost 3100 / 1400 gaz.
Just saying, mutas are usefull ONLY to harass in this composition. There is not a single game where mutas are actually good fighting units. Against Terran they are very usefull to shut down drop/kill tanks/harass mineral line, but they melt against marine, everybody knows that.
That's the same against protoss, mutas are great, but to harass/kill some specific units/shut down harass. Try to lunch an army of muta on an army of void ray colossi and stalker, and tell me if you do ANY damage.
And let's not forget : any good protoss will have his cybernetics core before the zerg going for lair, that's just how the game is now.
I've seen your post, you are basically forgetting time to build building, spire is so long to build...
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yeah the only difference is that Protoss/Terran get their Units one at A Time.
While Zerg can Mass instantly.
you know how imba this would be when spire would be like 50-60s ?
It is not like you have to commit to mutas but, force a Techswitch, deal economic damage, keep him in the base = force additional Ressource Sink into useless units in big fights (Phoenix)
you greatly overestimate the Anti Air Capabilities of Protoss, unlike Terran, Protoss lacks a good unit against ground vs. light Air.
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On February 24 2011 21:13 freetgy wrote:
yeah the only difference is that Protoss/Terran get their Units one at A Time.
While Zerg can Mass instantly.
you know how imba this game would be when spire would be like 50-60s ?
It is not like you have to commit to mutas but, force a Techswitch = additional Ressource Sink into useless units in fights (Phoenix)
You don't understand anything... What I'm saying basically, is that you can't have mutas before your opponent get a good defense despite going tech heavy. Just try void ray colossi against terran: you can't. You will get killed by a marine marauder push, or you will get punished by banshee or hellion play. Against Z, the protoss can tech up with the most obscene greed (void ray colossi) and your only harass unit that could punish him for being greedy come out in the game in the same time or just before the protoss get his own tech up...
And your point is absolutly invalid, because "forcing a tech switch" will most likely cost more for the zerg that has to make 8 muta or so, than for the protoss that hass to build 4 phenix to counter the mutas (don't tell me that's not enough) since he already have the tech route available.
Protoss and zerg units are balanced, but protoss tech tree is so much more easy, safe than zerg's one.
Everybody should have basically tree way of dealing with that kind of greedy play : be more greedy and expand a lot, harass or timing push. Timing push you have as terran or zerg: marine marauder and burrow roach or hydra all in. Be even more greedy, well that's obvious, but not that usefull in SC, just see Lalush's posts about economy. The third possibility is possible for terran with hellion banshee or drop play (that's what they do at the moment amiright?), but zerg obviously have no tools to do so.
Strategically that"s poor.
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On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 20:13 freetgy wrote:On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything. if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map  this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this... just use the basic advantages of Zerg. why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas? Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races. it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get... just by seeing your Techbuildings. Most of you are actually clueless about zerg. Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise. Void Ray colossi is not that strong. Even IdrA admitted it during last SotG. Colossi are units that completly define the match up, but against a void ray colossi ball, you just have to overproduce Corruptors and since the whole army of the protoss is air, even if you overproduce the protoss is screwed if he lose everything because void ray and colossi are expensive and take a while to come out. In fact I have less problem against a Void Ray colossi ball that against a stalker colossi ball that add a mother ship or something like that: you can't do a thing against that kind of play. Focus colissi with a bunch of corruptors: they go down very fast, then crush the remaining army with roach hydra corruptor. I'm not saying it's not strong nor it is perfectly balance, because it's so easy for protoss to play that kind of thing (expand, take two different tech route at the same time and not dying early ? wtf ? It's like a zerg fast expand and going for muta infestor...) but it's actually playable. As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes. My main problem in SC2 is that the tech route for both terran and protoss is easy. You can basicly have any units (except the big ones like battlecruiser, carrier, mothership) at the 10th minute mark. Terran can pop Thor at 7-8 minutes without difficulties... And Mutas comes out after all that, at the 10th minute mark at best : it means you can't just punish any greedy teching except with all in baneling/ling/roach/hydra play. Seriously, Spire cost as much as a Robotic Bay and take TWICE the time. Zerg can't do shit in early game to punish ANY greedy play, that's the only problem. That's why zerg is such a frustrating race at the moment. Colossi void expand should not even exist in mid game, it should only be a possible late game composition.
I have lost many games to mutaballs. muta are harass units in low numbers but when they get high numbers they rip through anything toss.
Zerg can punish greedy play. Julyzerg said his baneling bust is an autowin versus FE builds. Fast roach is almost an autowin versus cannon expand. How else do you want to punish greedy play if you aren't gonna take some econ damage? Its not like terran takes no econ damage when tthey pull scvs+marines against a fe zerg. They just do more damage to make up the cost. If your fast roach kills an fe toss's expo, it is no longer an all in because you just dealt more damage than how it much hurt you. It is also no different when toss go 4 gate versus a late gas fe zerg, if I can kill his expo I am no longer all-in with 4 gate.
Zerg can't tech fast the main thing is that unlike toss or terran whose unit production is caped by the unit production building of that kind. Once zerg get a tech, he can mass that if he wants.
Also your "harass unit" completely counters the "high tech" units that we get out at same time. I don't see how that hurt you. Its not like toss is gonna move out with 1 colo 1 void ray.
Also comparing gas/mineral cost of zerg units to toss units means nothing because zerg is ahead on bases so he gets to much more more/gas. If you expect to trade even cost zerg units for toss units then toss will no longer win any pvz.
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On February 24 2011 21:30 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 20:13 freetgy wrote:On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything. if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this... just use the basic advantages of Zerg. why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas? Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races. it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get... just by seeing your Techbuildings. Most of you are actually clueless about zerg. Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise. Void Ray colossi is not that strong. Even IdrA admitted it during last SotG. Colossi are units that completly define the match up, but against a void ray colossi ball, you just have to overproduce Corruptors and since the whole army of the protoss is air, even if you overproduce the protoss is screwed if he lose everything because void ray and colossi are expensive and take a while to come out. In fact I have less problem against a Void Ray colossi ball that against a stalker colossi ball that add a mother ship or something like that: you can't do a thing against that kind of play. Focus colissi with a bunch of corruptors: they go down very fast, then crush the remaining army with roach hydra corruptor. I'm not saying it's not strong nor it is perfectly balance, because it's so easy for protoss to play that kind of thing (expand, take two different tech route at the same time and not dying early ? wtf ? It's like a zerg fast expand and going for muta infestor...) but it's actually playable. As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes. My main problem in SC2 is that the tech route for both terran and protoss is easy. You can basicly have any units (except the big ones like battlecruiser, carrier, mothership) at the 10th minute mark. Terran can pop Thor at 7-8 minutes without difficulties... And Mutas comes out after all that, at the 10th minute mark at best : it means you can't just punish any greedy teching except with all in baneling/ling/roach/hydra play. Seriously, Spire cost as much as a Robotic Bay and take TWICE the time. Zerg can't do shit in early game to punish ANY greedy play, that's the only problem. That's why zerg is such a frustrating race at the moment. Colossi void expand should not even exist in mid game, it should only be a possible late game composition. I have lost many games to mutaballs. muta are harass units in low numbers but when they get high numbers they rip through anything toss. Zerg can punish greedy play. Julyzerg said his baneling bust is an autowin versus FE builds. Fast roach is almost an autowin versus cannon expand. How else do you want to punish greedy play if you aren't gonna take some econ damage? Its not like terran takes no econ damage when tthey pull scvs+marines against a fe zerg. They just do more damage to make up the cost. If your fast roach kills an fe toss's expo, it is no longer an all in because you just dealt more damage than how it much hurt you. It is also no different when toss go 4 gate versus a late gas fe zerg, if I can kill his expo I am no longer all-in with 4 gate. Zerg can't tech fast the main thing is that unlike toss or terran whose unit production is caped by the unit production building of that kind. Once zerg get a tech, he can mass that if he wants.
Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW.
You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard.
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On February 24 2011 21:11 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 21:03 freetgy wrote:On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:
Most of you are actually clueless about zerg.
Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise.
whats this heavy tech investment, get me some numbers Spire cost 200/200, 120 sec production, and need lair 150/100. To get colossi you need robotic facilities (200/100 gaz and 65s production) and robotic bay (200/200 and 65s production) not to mention cybernetic core which is irrelevant (150 mineral and 50s). 20 mutas cost 2 000/2 000, 5 void ray, 2 Colossi and 10 stalker cost 3100 / 1400 gaz. Just saying, mutas are usefull ONLY to harass in this composition. There is not a single game where mutas are actually good fighting units. Against Terran they are very usefull to shut down drop/kill tanks/harass mineral line, but they melt against marine, everybody knows that. That's the same against protoss, mutas are great, but to harass/kill some specific units/shut down harass. Try to lunch an army of muta on an army of void ray colossi and stalker, and tell me if you do ANY damage. And let's not forget : any good protoss will have his cybernetics core before the zerg going for lair, that's just how the game is now. I've seen your post, you are basically forgetting time to build building, spire is so long to build...
Mutas actually shit on void rays in a mostly-straight fight. If they don't have phoenix (or too many stalkers - where are they getting all this gas, again?) you can go in, kill a few voids, and leave before theyre charged up - voids are awful vs light units. If you keep the VR count down, you can handle this ball the way you normally would. and VRs take almost as long as colossus to build numbers of
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On February 24 2011 21:36 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 21:30 xbankx wrote:On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 20:13 freetgy wrote:On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything. if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this... just use the basic advantages of Zerg. why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas? Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races. it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get... just by seeing your Techbuildings. Most of you are actually clueless about zerg. Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise. Void Ray colossi is not that strong. Even IdrA admitted it during last SotG. Colossi are units that completly define the match up, but against a void ray colossi ball, you just have to overproduce Corruptors and since the whole army of the protoss is air, even if you overproduce the protoss is screwed if he lose everything because void ray and colossi are expensive and take a while to come out. In fact I have less problem against a Void Ray colossi ball that against a stalker colossi ball that add a mother ship or something like that: you can't do a thing against that kind of play. Focus colissi with a bunch of corruptors: they go down very fast, then crush the remaining army with roach hydra corruptor. I'm not saying it's not strong nor it is perfectly balance, because it's so easy for protoss to play that kind of thing (expand, take two different tech route at the same time and not dying early ? wtf ? It's like a zerg fast expand and going for muta infestor...) but it's actually playable. As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes. My main problem in SC2 is that the tech route for both terran and protoss is easy. You can basicly have any units (except the big ones like battlecruiser, carrier, mothership) at the 10th minute mark. Terran can pop Thor at 7-8 minutes without difficulties... And Mutas comes out after all that, at the 10th minute mark at best : it means you can't just punish any greedy teching except with all in baneling/ling/roach/hydra play. Seriously, Spire cost as much as a Robotic Bay and take TWICE the time. Zerg can't do shit in early game to punish ANY greedy play, that's the only problem. That's why zerg is such a frustrating race at the moment. Colossi void expand should not even exist in mid game, it should only be a possible late game composition. I have lost many games to mutaballs. muta are harass units in low numbers but when they get high numbers they rip through anything toss. Zerg can punish greedy play. Julyzerg said his baneling bust is an autowin versus FE builds. Fast roach is almost an autowin versus cannon expand. How else do you want to punish greedy play if you aren't gonna take some econ damage? Its not like terran takes no econ damage when tthey pull scvs+marines against a fe zerg. They just do more damage to make up the cost. If your fast roach kills an fe toss's expo, it is no longer an all in because you just dealt more damage than how it much hurt you. It is also no different when toss go 4 gate versus a late gas fe zerg, if I can kill his expo I am no longer all-in with 4 gate. Zerg can't tech fast the main thing is that unlike toss or terran whose unit production is caped by the unit production building of that kind. Once zerg get a tech, he can mass that if he wants. Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW. You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard.
Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets.
People do lose to mutaball. Even if the highest level GSL, toss had a 20% win rate versus zerg because of zerg's 2 base mutaball+ling into expo in GSl 2 or 3(sry forgot the exact GSL). GSL has some of the best toss players in the world. In the end it took a 6 gate timing to stop the 2 base muta play. Muta coming in at all stage is game is a threat. I mean if your army is all zealots+void ray+colossus and suddenly 12-14 muta comes in to your base you can seriously just die. Its not like toss has 15 warpgate along with the two base to warp in 15 stalkers at once. Zerg actually harass better than toss. what does toss harass with? Zerg can harass with muta and terran can harass with mm drop. Harass for toss is like when toss is on 5 base and dropping temps near mineral line to storm. Also guess what sometimes I do have templars, but sometimes its not enough. They get sniped. Zergs can dodge storm. Have you ever tried to storm a unit with 4 movment speed? Storm has a not he biggest radius with a casting delay so unless mutas are standing still you aren't gonna get more than 1-2 sec. Archons lose more pathetically to to magic box than thors and mothership versus mutas? Im not sure if you are serious or not so Ill just not respond.
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Yesterday a zerg destroyed me with constant nydus harassment - he floated money because I couldn't pressure and the worms popped up everywhere immediately every time I tried to move out, it was horrible lol.
Has been a long time since I've seen nydus play in a non all-in way in lategame in top level games...and to be honest I don't have the slightest idea why.
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On February 24 2011 21:51 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 21:36 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 21:30 xbankx wrote:On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 20:13 freetgy wrote:On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything. if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this... just use the basic advantages of Zerg. why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas? Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races. it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get... just by seeing your Techbuildings. Most of you are actually clueless about zerg. Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise. Void Ray colossi is not that strong. Even IdrA admitted it during last SotG. Colossi are units that completly define the match up, but against a void ray colossi ball, you just have to overproduce Corruptors and since the whole army of the protoss is air, even if you overproduce the protoss is screwed if he lose everything because void ray and colossi are expensive and take a while to come out. In fact I have less problem against a Void Ray colossi ball that against a stalker colossi ball that add a mother ship or something like that: you can't do a thing against that kind of play. Focus colissi with a bunch of corruptors: they go down very fast, then crush the remaining army with roach hydra corruptor. I'm not saying it's not strong nor it is perfectly balance, because it's so easy for protoss to play that kind of thing (expand, take two different tech route at the same time and not dying early ? wtf ? It's like a zerg fast expand and going for muta infestor...) but it's actually playable. As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes. My main problem in SC2 is that the tech route for both terran and protoss is easy. You can basicly have any units (except the big ones like battlecruiser, carrier, mothership) at the 10th minute mark. Terran can pop Thor at 7-8 minutes without difficulties... And Mutas comes out after all that, at the 10th minute mark at best : it means you can't just punish any greedy teching except with all in baneling/ling/roach/hydra play. Seriously, Spire cost as much as a Robotic Bay and take TWICE the time. Zerg can't do shit in early game to punish ANY greedy play, that's the only problem. That's why zerg is such a frustrating race at the moment. Colossi void expand should not even exist in mid game, it should only be a possible late game composition. I have lost many games to mutaballs. muta are harass units in low numbers but when they get high numbers they rip through anything toss. Zerg can punish greedy play. Julyzerg said his baneling bust is an autowin versus FE builds. Fast roach is almost an autowin versus cannon expand. How else do you want to punish greedy play if you aren't gonna take some econ damage? Its not like terran takes no econ damage when tthey pull scvs+marines against a fe zerg. They just do more damage to make up the cost. If your fast roach kills an fe toss's expo, it is no longer an all in because you just dealt more damage than how it much hurt you. It is also no different when toss go 4 gate versus a late gas fe zerg, if I can kill his expo I am no longer all-in with 4 gate. Zerg can't tech fast the main thing is that unlike toss or terran whose unit production is caped by the unit production building of that kind. Once zerg get a tech, he can mass that if he wants. Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW. You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard. Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets. People do lose to mutaball. Even if the highest level GSL, toss had a 20% win rate versus zerg because of zerg's 2 base mutaball+ling into expo in GSl 2 or 3(sry forgot the exact GSL). GSL has some of the best toss players in the world. In the end it took a 6 gate timing to stop the 2 base muta play. Muta coming in at all stage is game is a threat. I mean if your army is all zealots+void ray+colossus and suddenly 12-14 muta comes in to your base you can seriously just die. Its not like toss has 15 warpgate along with the two base to warp in 15 stalkers at once. Zerg actually harass better than toss. what does toss harass with? Zerg can harass with muta and terran can harass with mm drop. Harass for toss is like when toss is on 5 base and dropping temps near mineral line to storm. Also guess what sometimes I do have templars, but sometimes its not enough. They get sniped. Zergs can dodge storm. Have you ever tried to storm a unit with 4 movment speed? Storm has a not he biggest radius with a casting delay so unless mutas are standing still you aren't gonna get more than 1-2 sec. Archons lose more pathetically to to magic box than thors and mothership versus mutas? Im not sure if you are serious or not so Ill just not respond.
GSL is irrelevant. If you only have zealot void ray and colossi, then it's your loss for not making sentries or stalker, but if you see 8 muta (you know the cost of 14 mutas ? it does not come easily) you can easily pop out 4-5 stalker with gatelolzway almost instantly, with the sentries you already have, it will be enough to kill the muta.
Mutas shit on void ray ? Try it 20 muta vs 5 void ray and 10 stalker. Sure 200/200 muta, or a big muta, kill a bunch of stalker and void rays.
Mutas are good, but it's not a solution meta game wise. It's situationnal, you will see it sometime, once in a while in a BO3, but it will never be basic play because you know what, it suck in fair fight if the opponent prepare just a bit for it.
Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets.
It's not all in ok, but it's poker play: if you don't do damage, you loose instantly.
I'm not sure that's the kind of play that is good in high level, CatZ I think would say the same.
I mean sure, CatZ is amazing, but there is a reason why no zerg blindly follow his play: he has his own style, use his brain more than most of us and win this way, like FruitDealer and Leenock going for 1 base infestor play against terran. Most of us look at IdrA's (or morrow i suppose) replay because he is solid, his build are refine, just like any toss can follow WhiteRa blindly or any terran can just copy paste MVP's build.
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On February 24 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:
Yesterday a zerg destroyed me with constant nydus harassment - he floated money because I couldn't pressure and the worms popped up everywhere immediately every time I tried to move out, it was horrible lol.
Has been a long time since I've seen nydus play in a non all-in way in lategame in top level games...and to be honest I don't have the slightest idea why.
I can answer why. With current ladder maps if zerg decides to play with nydus, then toss can just takes his whole army and a-moves through everything zerg has. You see nydus in your base, and after 10 sec you can be in zergs base killing stuff. Yeah this may end in base race but afterall toss is going to have stronger army.
I think nydus play is going to be much more common on huge GSL maps.
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On February 24 2011 21:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 21:51 xbankx wrote:On February 24 2011 21:36 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 21:30 xbankx wrote:On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 20:13 freetgy wrote:On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything. if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this... just use the basic advantages of Zerg. why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas? Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races. it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get... just by seeing your Techbuildings. Most of you are actually clueless about zerg. Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise. Void Ray colossi is not that strong. Even IdrA admitted it during last SotG. Colossi are units that completly define the match up, but against a void ray colossi ball, you just have to overproduce Corruptors and since the whole army of the protoss is air, even if you overproduce the protoss is screwed if he lose everything because void ray and colossi are expensive and take a while to come out. In fact I have less problem against a Void Ray colossi ball that against a stalker colossi ball that add a mother ship or something like that: you can't do a thing against that kind of play. Focus colissi with a bunch of corruptors: they go down very fast, then crush the remaining army with roach hydra corruptor. I'm not saying it's not strong nor it is perfectly balance, because it's so easy for protoss to play that kind of thing (expand, take two different tech route at the same time and not dying early ? wtf ? It's like a zerg fast expand and going for muta infestor...) but it's actually playable. As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes. My main problem in SC2 is that the tech route for both terran and protoss is easy. You can basicly have any units (except the big ones like battlecruiser, carrier, mothership) at the 10th minute mark. Terran can pop Thor at 7-8 minutes without difficulties... And Mutas comes out after all that, at the 10th minute mark at best : it means you can't just punish any greedy teching except with all in baneling/ling/roach/hydra play. Seriously, Spire cost as much as a Robotic Bay and take TWICE the time. Zerg can't do shit in early game to punish ANY greedy play, that's the only problem. That's why zerg is such a frustrating race at the moment. Colossi void expand should not even exist in mid game, it should only be a possible late game composition. I have lost many games to mutaballs. muta are harass units in low numbers but when they get high numbers they rip through anything toss. Zerg can punish greedy play. Julyzerg said his baneling bust is an autowin versus FE builds. Fast roach is almost an autowin versus cannon expand. How else do you want to punish greedy play if you aren't gonna take some econ damage? Its not like terran takes no econ damage when tthey pull scvs+marines against a fe zerg. They just do more damage to make up the cost. If your fast roach kills an fe toss's expo, it is no longer an all in because you just dealt more damage than how it much hurt you. It is also no different when toss go 4 gate versus a late gas fe zerg, if I can kill his expo I am no longer all-in with 4 gate. Zerg can't tech fast the main thing is that unlike toss or terran whose unit production is caped by the unit production building of that kind. Once zerg get a tech, he can mass that if he wants. Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW. You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard. Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets. People do lose to mutaball. Even if the highest level GSL, toss had a 20% win rate versus zerg because of zerg's 2 base mutaball+ling into expo in GSl 2 or 3(sry forgot the exact GSL). GSL has some of the best toss players in the world. In the end it took a 6 gate timing to stop the 2 base muta play. Muta coming in at all stage is game is a threat. I mean if your army is all zealots+void ray+colossus and suddenly 12-14 muta comes in to your base you can seriously just die. Its not like toss has 15 warpgate along with the two base to warp in 15 stalkers at once. Zerg actually harass better than toss. what does toss harass with? Zerg can harass with muta and terran can harass with mm drop. Harass for toss is like when toss is on 5 base and dropping temps near mineral line to storm. Also guess what sometimes I do have templars, but sometimes its not enough. They get sniped. Zergs can dodge storm. Have you ever tried to storm a unit with 4 movment speed? Storm has a not he biggest radius with a casting delay so unless mutas are standing still you aren't gonna get more than 1-2 sec. Archons lose more pathetically to to magic box than thors and mothership versus mutas? Im not sure if you are serious or not so Ill just not respond. GSL is irrelevant. If you only have zealot void ray and colossi, then it's your loss for not making sentries or stalker, but if you see 8 muta (you know the cost of 14 mutas ? it does not come easily) you can easily pop out 4-5 stalker with gatelolzway almost instantly, with the sentries you already have, it will be enough to kill the muta. Mutas shit on void ray ? Try it 20 muta vs 5 void ray and 10 stalker. Sure 200/200 muta, or a big muta, kill a bunch of stalker and void rays. Mutas are good, but it's not a solution meta game wise. It's situationnal, you will see it sometime, once in a while in a BO3, but it will never be basic play because you know what, it suck in fair fight if the opponent prepare just a bit for it. Show nested quote +Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets. It's not all in ok, but it's poker play: if you don't do damage, you loose instantly. I'm not sure that's the kind of play that is good in high level, CatZ I think would say the same.
I am assume we are talking about the void ray/colo 2 base build thats why i said all if a toss have all zealot/colo/void ray. Getting 14-15 mutas at once is highly possible against the 2 base colo/void ray all in because toss won't push out until he has the deathball so zerg is free to save gas/mineral/larva.
I mean even if you are going standard stalker/colossus, going mutas completely owns this build. Also maybe GSL is just one of many tourney but a lot of toss had trouble against it. It was a pretty strong build order until 6 gate timing was popularized. The thing is good zerg will almost never lose many muta. They will just keep toss in his 2 base. Kill random pylon/stalkers until while expanding+building up the mutaball until he has enough and just kill the stalker ball. Mutaplay was actually extremely good versus the "old" standard colossus+stalker ball That period many toss complained about the muta build and thought it was op(artosis and idra talked about it as well but said later the 6 gate fixed it).
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On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:
As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes.
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Exactly.
I have to say that Muta works quite well at my level (high diamond, low master). But if you want enough muta to engage the deathball, you basically need to spend all your gas on muta. This means you mush make a fair amount of spine crawler if you don't want to die to any pressure.
Yes it works great at my level, but I'm just counting of the fact that my opponent doesn't have the slightest ability to think and realize that I have a spire, I'm mining gas like crazy and making nothing but zerglings and spine crawlers.
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On February 24 2011 22:11 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 21:59 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 21:51 xbankx wrote:On February 24 2011 21:36 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 21:30 xbankx wrote:On February 24 2011 20:32 WhiteDog wrote:On February 24 2011 20:13 freetgy wrote:On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything. if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this... just use the basic advantages of Zerg. why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas? Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races. it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get... just by seeing your Techbuildings. Most of you are actually clueless about zerg. Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise. Void Ray colossi is not that strong. Even IdrA admitted it during last SotG. Colossi are units that completly define the match up, but against a void ray colossi ball, you just have to overproduce Corruptors and since the whole army of the protoss is air, even if you overproduce the protoss is screwed if he lose everything because void ray and colossi are expensive and take a while to come out. In fact I have less problem against a Void Ray colossi ball that against a stalker colossi ball that add a mother ship or something like that: you can't do a thing against that kind of play. Focus colissi with a bunch of corruptors: they go down very fast, then crush the remaining army with roach hydra corruptor. I'm not saying it's not strong nor it is perfectly balance, because it's so easy for protoss to play that kind of thing (expand, take two different tech route at the same time and not dying early ? wtf ? It's like a zerg fast expand and going for muta infestor...) but it's actually playable. As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes. My main problem in SC2 is that the tech route for both terran and protoss is easy. You can basicly have any units (except the big ones like battlecruiser, carrier, mothership) at the 10th minute mark. Terran can pop Thor at 7-8 minutes without difficulties... And Mutas comes out after all that, at the 10th minute mark at best : it means you can't just punish any greedy teching except with all in baneling/ling/roach/hydra play. Seriously, Spire cost as much as a Robotic Bay and take TWICE the time. Zerg can't do shit in early game to punish ANY greedy play, that's the only problem. That's why zerg is such a frustrating race at the moment. Colossi void expand should not even exist in mid game, it should only be a possible late game composition. I have lost many games to mutaballs. muta are harass units in low numbers but when they get high numbers they rip through anything toss. Zerg can punish greedy play. Julyzerg said his baneling bust is an autowin versus FE builds. Fast roach is almost an autowin versus cannon expand. How else do you want to punish greedy play if you aren't gonna take some econ damage? Its not like terran takes no econ damage when tthey pull scvs+marines against a fe zerg. They just do more damage to make up the cost. If your fast roach kills an fe toss's expo, it is no longer an all in because you just dealt more damage than how it much hurt you. It is also no different when toss go 4 gate versus a late gas fe zerg, if I can kill his expo I am no longer all-in with 4 gate. Zerg can't tech fast the main thing is that unlike toss or terran whose unit production is caped by the unit production building of that kind. Once zerg get a tech, he can mass that if he wants. Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW. You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard. Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets. People do lose to mutaball. Even if the highest level GSL, toss had a 20% win rate versus zerg because of zerg's 2 base mutaball+ling into expo in GSl 2 or 3(sry forgot the exact GSL). GSL has some of the best toss players in the world. In the end it took a 6 gate timing to stop the 2 base muta play. Muta coming in at all stage is game is a threat. I mean if your army is all zealots+void ray+colossus and suddenly 12-14 muta comes in to your base you can seriously just die. Its not like toss has 15 warpgate along with the two base to warp in 15 stalkers at once. Zerg actually harass better than toss. what does toss harass with? Zerg can harass with muta and terran can harass with mm drop. Harass for toss is like when toss is on 5 base and dropping temps near mineral line to storm. Also guess what sometimes I do have templars, but sometimes its not enough. They get sniped. Zergs can dodge storm. Have you ever tried to storm a unit with 4 movment speed? Storm has a not he biggest radius with a casting delay so unless mutas are standing still you aren't gonna get more than 1-2 sec. Archons lose more pathetically to to magic box than thors and mothership versus mutas? Im not sure if you are serious or not so Ill just not respond. GSL is irrelevant. If you only have zealot void ray and colossi, then it's your loss for not making sentries or stalker, but if you see 8 muta (you know the cost of 14 mutas ? it does not come easily) you can easily pop out 4-5 stalker with gatelolzway almost instantly, with the sentries you already have, it will be enough to kill the muta. Mutas shit on void ray ? Try it 20 muta vs 5 void ray and 10 stalker. Sure 200/200 muta, or a big muta, kill a bunch of stalker and void rays. Mutas are good, but it's not a solution meta game wise. It's situationnal, you will see it sometime, once in a while in a BO3, but it will never be basic play because you know what, it suck in fair fight if the opponent prepare just a bit for it. Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets. It's not all in ok, but it's poker play: if you don't do damage, you loose instantly. I'm not sure that's the kind of play that is good in high level, CatZ I think would say the same. I am assume we are talking about the void ray/colo 2 base build thats why i said all if a toss have all zealot/colo/void ray. I mean even if you are going standard stalker/colossus, going mutas completely owns this build. Also maybe GSL is just one of many tourney but a lot of toss had trouble against it. It was a pretty strong build order until 6 gate timing was popularized. The thing is good zerg will almost never lose many muta. They will just keep toss in his 2 base. Kill random pylon/stalkers until while expanding+building up the mutaball until he has enough and just kill the stalker ball. Mutaplay was actually extremely good versus the "old" standard colossus+stalker ball That period many toss complained about the muta build and thought it was op(artosis and idra talked about it as well).
Sure, but why talking about the past ? I was not even playing zerg at the moment so I can't even argue with you. Each time I have tried to go mutas, I have been destroyed. Roach into mutas are more interesting, and pretty good, but against a good protoss I'm sorry but what will you do with mutas that pop out at 10-12 minutes? That's way too late.
Void ray colo 2 base build sure is strong, but if you see a big muta ball you will not deviate from your initial composition and add more stalker maybe a bunch of fenix ?
Also don't forget that the fenix build time had been reduce, changing a lot of things, we also did not see KiwiKaki mothership play just tearing through muta. You are talking about an era where protoss were just NOT developped at all as a race. Things have changed.
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Of course catz has his own style. Im bringing it up to merely make the point that there is no such thing as all-in all in. the more aggressive the build, the more econ you lose meaning the aggressive must do as much or more damage to be worth it. But if you do do enough damage, it is no longer an all in just like my example if you went 6-7 pool and killed all but 1-2 probes. You are ahead of econ. You can just play standard and win.
edit to reply lastest post:
This thread is about the 2 base colo+void ray play. I said it in a previous post. A toss is making a colossus+voids rays off 2 bases. The strength of this build is that it is extremely cost effective once you make the ball with lots of void rays and lots of colossus but if toss deviates and is forced to add more stalkers/pheonix into the build. The core void ray/colossus numbers will be reduced adn the build will no longer be super potent. If you force the toss to make 4 pheonix that is 60 secs and a lot of gas he isnt spending on void rays, and that is a lot in this certain toss build.
You are pretty much making the same point I made to zerg a few post ago. If you scout a build and don't deviate from standard then yea you are gonna lose. Just like you said if a toss goes this colo/void/zealot build and doesnt deviate from it even if he scouts a spire/mutas then he is gonna get rolled. The same apply to zerg, if you plan on going roach/hydra/corruptors you are probably gonna lose. That is what I been trying to get across to zerg. You can't hope to go standard against an all in that just build to beat the standard. Deviate into mutas if he transition to pheonix, you transition to corruptors and so long. Adapt as game moves on.
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On February 24 2011 22:17 xbankx wrote:
Of course catz has his own style. Im bringing it up to merely make the point that there is no such thing as all-in all in. the more aggressive the build, the more econ you lose meaning the aggressive must do as much or more damage to be worth it. But if you do do enough damage, it is no longer an all in just like my example if you went 6-7 pool and killed all but 1-2 probes. You are ahead of econ. You can just play standard and win.
edit to reply lastest post:
This thread is about the 2 base colo+void ray play. I said it in a previous post. A toss is making a colossus+voids rays off 2 bases. The strength of this build is that it is extremely cost effective once you make the ball with lots of void rays and lots of colossus but if toss deviates and is forced to add more stalkers/pheonix into the build. The core void ray/colossus numbers will be reduced adn the build will no longer be super potent. If you force the toss to make 4 pheonix that is 60 secs and a lot of gas he isnt spending on void rays, and that is a lot in this certain toss build.
Yeah, I understand that this thread is about colo+void play but most of the people here are arguing about "is colo void ray counterable" ? And of course it is... the problem of protoss is within the tech tree of protoss. Saying "muta" is wrong, because mutas are not rock solid tech route, it's flawed, you can crush it if you scout it so badly that we should not even talk about it... This has been said so many times.
IdrA in the last SotG said that void ray colossi is not that "imba" and that protoss are forgetting about stalker colossi ball. He is running around in the match up saying this is imba, this is imba, and protoss are saying no it's not, see you do this, you do this. IdrA is not an idiot, I think he is right somehow, every zerg feel the same but I think it's not about the units it's about the tech route. There is a race in this game who just can't play like others, who need to constantly balance between drone/units and never be safe, while two others have great (too great) early game abilities that give them the ability to rush for T3, expand, etc. That's the only pb.
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@most of the P's that posted in here (havent read all pages though) : If you believe you can tech up to spire as zerg BEFORE a P has tech'd, you sir are just so insanely wrong.
THEORETICALLY that might be possible. It is, however, just not true in reality. If you fast tech as zerg, you sacrifice tons of economy which makes you that much weaker. Just check out any GSL match, zergs basically usually start their lair when P already has robo units out.
I do think the VRs/Colossi combo is too strong - maybe not completely unbeatable but to beat it requires the zerg to play SO much better than the toss which, honestly, is simply unfair. You can't deny that anyone playing even just a little better than his opponent should logically be the winner, and so far in sc2 it really hasn't always been the case for zergs.
That beind said though, game's still young, with expansions and all I'm just hoping blizzard will be able to change things up a bit via new units 
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I've been thinking of ways Blizz could balance this game and I think I have an answer and it has to do with hallucinate. Essentially, this build works so well because it's all about reacting to your opponent. You can adjust your unit comp based on what you see. Now this isn't a problem because observers require tech and delay colossi production, they CAN be sniped with overseers to deny scouting. HOWEVER, how do you deny scouting from a phoenix? YOU CAN'T! The thing is TOO fast to stop, it doesn't matter what you do, it's going to get in your base and see exactly what you are doing which is why I suggest the following:
1.) make Hallucinate cost 150 energy, so that there would be less phoenix on the map for scouting and it would be more costly to create free units for tanking or scouting.
2.) disallow the use of Hallucinating Phoenix.
I'm more in favor of #2 because even if it costed high amounts of energy it would still be used if the observer gets sniped. Basically I really don't like how fast the phoenix is, it's going to scout you and you can't do a thing about it. I think if toss wants to scout with hallucinate, they can use voids and at least they can be caught! Anyways, what do you guys think?
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On February 24 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:
Yesterday a zerg destroyed me with constant nydus harassment - he floated money because I couldn't pressure and the worms popped up everywhere immediately every time I tried to move out, it was horrible lol.
Has been a long time since I've seen nydus play in a non all-in way in lategame in top level games...and to be honest I don't have the slightest idea why.
it's the maps, they don't really offer enough room for nydus to be effective although on maps like Scrap Station nydus is amazing. These new GSL maps show promise for nydus which is great, but in all actuality, I feel like a drop timing is much, much better.
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On February 24 2011 22:32 emc wrote:
I've been thinking of ways Blizz could balance this game and I think I have an answer and it has to do with hallucinate. Essentially, this build works so well because it's all about reacting to your opponent. You can adjust your unit comp based on what you see. Now this isn't a problem because observers require tech and delay colossi production, they CAN be sniped with overseers to deny scouting. HOWEVER, how do you deny scouting from a phoenix? YOU CAN'T! The thing is TOO fast to stop, it doesn't matter what you do, it's going to get in your base and see exactly what you are doing which is why I suggest the following:
1.) make Hallucinate cost 150 energy, so that there would be less phoenix on the map for scouting and it would be more costly to create free units for tanking or scouting.
2.) disallow the use of Hallucinating Phoenix.
I'm more in favor of #2 because even if it costed high amounts of energy it would still be used if the observer gets sniped. Basically I really don't like how fast the phoenix is, it's going to scout you and you can't do a thing about it. I think if toss wants to scout with hallucinate, they can use voids and at least they can be caught! Anyways, what do you guys think?
So you're suggesting that protoss should be forced to make a tech commitment before doing any scouting? Playing blind from whenever your probe dies to when you actually get a stargate/robo up doesn't seem balanced. It seems more like you're forcing the toss player to blindly run into a build order loss in the first 8 or so minutes of the game which is exactly why people started researching hallucinate in the first place.
Blizzard even lowered the hallucinate research time last patch because there's a huge hole in protoss scouting early/mid game.
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EPT
