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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
True zerg coped with it, but it doesn't mean that zerg is playing on even footing is my point. Meaning, it isn't solved. Solved implies that you come out both equal. That doesn't make sense though, because the 2 rax he speaks of was also an scv all-in, and "coping" with it usually meant you won indiscriminately. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 23 2011 15:57 Buruguduy wrote: What? you didn't even address anything i said. What I'm saying is 2-rax isn't solved, it is still super strong. You didn't even consider that hte lead balance designer of Blizz called it garbage. True zerg coped with it, but it doesn't mean that zerg is playing on even footing is my point. Meaning, it isn't solved. Solved implies that you come out both equal. P.S. Platinum or not, you're just dumb But....it's not happening anymore....how is Zerg getting behind because of the attacks that don't happen? Because he built a spine crawler? I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. | ||
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Zero RDS
Canada104 Posts
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PineappleSage
Canada109 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 23 2011 16:45 brendan.zerg116109 wrote: could coruptor broodlord deal with it?or muta hurrass, heavy mindcontrolling infestors work? This has been discussed quite a bit in the thread. He's the tl;dr: Corrupter/Broodlord: Hard to get out in time. Both die to voids really fast. Mutas: Awesome idea, provided the opponent doesn't get Phoenixes with his two stargates after scouting the spire (he can't do a heavy gateway unit timing push, though, if he's teching really fast too. If he was going for a 6-gate attack and you went mutas expect him to tech, though, then you're in trouble). If you force a lot of phoenixes, you've avoided the death ball and have a very annoying build that counters yours. I think Muta to force phoenixes, queens to deal with phoenixes, and lings because....excess minerals need to be spent somewhere, while taking a third since the protoss will have a small ground army is probably the best way of dealing with this yet discovered. Muta/Corrupter/Queen/Ling while expanding might also work. The problems with this are that you don't really get ahead, and that there's another common build (the 6-gate) that protoss could do off six gates that counters really really hard. Neural Parasite: Big investment. Highly risky. If the ball has a lot of voids, it's not a lot of payoff even in the best case. There's yet to be a build that "counters" this. But, since it's reactive and based on scouting, there will probably never be. "Surviving and staying evenish" is probably the best we can hope for. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On February 23 2011 17:19 Ribbon wrote: This has been discussed quite a bit in the thread. He's the tl;dr: Corrupter/Broodlord: Hard to get out in time. Both die to voids really fast. Mutas: Awesome idea, provided the opponent doesn't get Phoenixes with his two stargates after scouting the spire (he can't do a heavy gateway unit timing push, though, if he's teching really fast too. If he was going for a 6-gate attack and you went mutas expect him to tech, though, then you're in trouble). If you force a lot of phoenixes, you've avoided the death ball and have a very annoying build that counters yours. I think Muta to force phoenixes, queens to deal with phoenixes, and lings because....excess minerals need to be spent somewhere, while taking a third since the protoss will have a small ground army is probably the best way of dealing with this yet discovered. Muta/Corrupter/Queen/Ling while expanding might also work. The problems with this are that you don't really get ahead, and that there's another common build (the 6-gate) that protoss could do off six gates that counters really really hard. Neural Parasite: Big investment. Highly risky. If the ball has a lot of voids, it's not a lot of payoff even in the best case. There's yet to be a build that "counters" this. But, since it's reactive and based on scouting, there will probably never be. "Surviving and staying evenish" is probably the best we can hope for. Mutas OR Corrupters... why can't it be both, coupled with positioning them so Phoenixes always have to go through Corrupters first? And before number of Protoss air units and their mobility becomes a problem, adding Infestors to the Muta Corruptor mix to catch and eliminate Protoss air? For me it sounds exactly like Ultralisks being not worth it because of too many zealots (ep1) and later, someone makes banes to deal with zeals and ultras are fine (ep3)... | ||
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MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
You CAN defend this strategy or you CAN deny it earlier in the game if you really focus on beating that strategy .... but how do you know it is coming?! Many good protoss players don't just go straight for this strategy, but open with solid openings and then somehow proceed on adding voidrays and colossi into their mix Example: Protoss goes 3warpgate expand -> 1-2 more gateways plus starport Would you go for a zerg/corruptor combination?? hell no!! you do not go for it if you scout another warpgates coming up after the expansion because you would die to any warpgate push what is not unreasonable based on what you scout Afterwards protoss can maybe stick to some attack (which why you have to go for your usual roach/hydra mix) or maybe just take another expo slowly as soon as he feels safe and then slowly add more and more voidray/colossi into the mix So zerg responds by teching, taking bases, adding corruptors ... and then? Suiciding all your roaches/hydras to get this "muta/corruptor" mix? I would really like to hear your opinions about that | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On February 23 2011 17:58 MapleLeafSirup wrote: I think what many people forget is: You CAN defend this strategy or you CAN deny it earlier in the game if you really focus on beating that strategy .... but how do you know it is coming?! Many good protoss players don't just go straight for this strategy, but open with solid openings and then somehow proceed on adding voidrays and colossi into their mix Example: Protoss goes 3warpgate expand -> 1-2 more gateways plus starport Would you go for a zerg/corruptor combination?? hell no!! you do not go for it if you scout another warpgates coming up after the expansion because you would die to any warpgate push what is not unreasonable based on what you scout Afterwards protoss can maybe stick to some attack (which why you have to go for your usual roach/hydra mix) or maybe just take another expo slowly as soon as he feels safe and then slowly add more and more voidray/colossi into the mix So zerg responds by teching, taking bases, adding corruptors ... and then? Suiciding all your roaches/hydras to get this "muta/corruptor" mix? I would really like to hear your opinions about that What I understood is if Protoss is teching hard (he is getting many void rays and colossi fast) then he can't afford many Gateway units - Stalkers aren't that big of a problem for mutas and because of the amount of resources put into tech, pushes aren't at least as strong and can't come as fast to punish zerg who is teching to air. What is a big problem for mutas are phoenixes. So why no one even mentions muta corruptor mix in this scenario? Of course other Protoss opnenings mean different cases but even then is it really necessary to wait until 200/200 before adding both mutas and corrupters? Their ratio (how many mutas to one corruptor in the mix) obviously also matters. And this doesn't have to be "the ultimate response" of some sort but just a transition, and something that zerg can switch out of if necessary. Keep in mind zerg has the easiest time when switching unit mixes as hatcheries can produce all of the zerg units. Resources are the only limit. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 23 2011 16:20 Ribbon wrote: But....it's not happening anymore....how is Zerg getting behind because of the attacks that don't happen? Because he built a spine crawler? I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. Watch Idra vs Jinro clash of the titans. Jinro 2raxed a lot, getting bunker up and still not killing anything that should justify this kind of early push, but the zerg has to build zergling and eventually put down a sunken: that's a lot less drone, and obviously that's doesn't mean it's pure imbalance. The problem is that the terran can do that kind of tricky play, he can even commit to an attack, loose 2 SCV & 4 marine, without injuring his economy, still expanding without any flaw in his defence. That's a win-win for the agressor and, even if the zerg play perfect, he is still very injured economically. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 23 2011 18:26 WhiteDog wrote: Watch Idra vs Jinro clash of the titans. Jinro 2raxed a lot, getting bunker up and still not killing anything that should justify this kind of early push, but the zerg has to build zergling and eventually put down a sunken: that's a lot less drone, and obviously that's doesn't mean it's pure imbalance. The problem is that the terran can do that kind of tricky play, he can even commit to an attack, loose 2 SCV & 4 marine, without injuring his economy, still expanding without any flaw in his defence. That's a win-win for the agressor and, even if the zerg play perfect, he is still very injured economically. Well, that's the same as in Brood War. BW TvZ, the Terran would run a control group of M&M down to force sunkens and zerglings, wave at the Zerg's natural, and then run straight home to defend against Mutas. That's just the nature of the Zerg race. Pressure, even if nothing takes damage, will force less drones, therefore pressure will always be good. Right now, it's a bit less Kabuki and Terran will actually try to do damage, but it's the same concept as high-level BW. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Haypro busts out the muta corruptor ling vs. a voidray colossi build. Really nice execution by Haypro. His opponent wasn't that great, but he pretty much responded as you would think. He built a few voidrays, then 2robo colossi expecting hydras, but Haypro went mutas instead. Protoss followed up with phoenixes but Haypro had a bunch of corruptors. It's a really good example of how to deal with this build imo. You could argue Haypro gained an advantage early game, but honestly, he wasn't ahead by too much and didn't take a third that quickly either since void rays do give map control. Obviously, this isn't a surefire counter to this build, but it's a viable response. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On February 24 2011 14:03 DeltruS wrote: Haypro just beat void ray colo with a great mix of muta and corruptor. A pure air army with upgrades seems to be a solid answer, at least with good economy on zerg's side. Did you consider at all that the protoss might of just played much worse than haypro? | ||
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Gescom
Canada3520 Posts
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Zero RDS
Canada104 Posts
just a thought O.o | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On February 24 2011 14:10 Fa1nT wrote: Did you consider at all that the protoss might of just played much worse than haypro? What was he going to do rofl? Mutas came out and took out like 10 probes, then Haypro just kept building Corruptors and Muta, Toss had invested too much into Robo tech to every come back at that point, he could have massed Phoenixes but he would have no ground army and would eventually lose to mass Corruptors. He had no army that could ever move out without losing his entire base, so Haypro took literally every expansion on the map... It was just a slow death the moment the Mutas came out, incapable of taking a third base whilst also incapable of stopping Haypro from taking any expansion he wanted | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On February 24 2011 14:16 Dommk wrote: What was he going to do rofl? Mutas came out and took out like 10 probes, then Haypro just kept building Corruptors and Muta, Toss had invested too much into Robo tech to every come back at that point, he could have massed Phoenixes but he would have no ground army and would eventually lose to mass Corruptors. He had no army that could ever move out without losing his entire base, so Haypro took literally every expansion on the map... What I am saying is that people shouldn't be using results of american tourneys to argue against korean focused protoss builds that are probably executed much better. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
On February 24 2011 14:10 Fa1nT wrote: Did you consider at all that the protoss might of just played much worse than haypro? Yes. It just seems like the unit composition has a very good cost efficiency. With all air units, double upgrades are a possibility. Upgrades are REALLY good vs protoss air. With a unit composition that works, all that is needed is a way to get that unit composition. I remember players from ST right after beta saying that their entire goal in a game was to get a good mix of pheonix, stalkers and colossus. They said that even though it was hard to get that composition, they can win once they do. ANYTHING can happen on the way to the goal of a good composition, and that means that there IS a way to deal with apparent imbalance. There are a million builds that can be optimized to survive into a corruptor muta midgame. They just haven't been found yet. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3520 Posts
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