EPTVoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 51
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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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smacky
United States108 Posts
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Karu
Germany6 Posts
There might be some advantage because of the mapchoice - but an (grave) imbalance didn't occured to me - what I would say is more like playerbased "problems" - bad scouting - bad response(s) - bad macro (do u allways inject 5 hatches on the exact second? for an exteme exampe) - on-player depending style (i know at least 1 zerg at high diamond that avoid roach like the plague, an allways 4 gating Toss and so on) - bumbs in the play - lack of creativity of the majority (new strats need longer to develop and their counter too), espacally to "never seen" tactics <and many more> | ||
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Sid
Slovakia8 Posts
@Sid: u didn't scout the front perodicaly (so u didn't saw no sentrys) - so u didn't saw his units NO sentry - pylonblock in front (baneling bust it?!). You saw his fast robo AND the robobay - u respond with 16 lings with speed comming up (could be 8 drones and faster lair). Fast tech means few units - as day[9] would say: "go fu.cking kill him" After that u went roach - and spire - and infestation pit and a 9 roach push at minute 11 against a colossi. No Overseer - no scouting after minute 6 to minute 10 (overseer for changeling perhaps - u where practially BLIND) at 14(!) min u finally tryed to scout - but didn't scout much - your expand is late ... Your Early and mid game costs u the game - not the "imba deathball". Getting mutas 2 min earlyer (yeah, 1 phoenix+1 stalker vs 6 mutas = drone harras) forcing units -> less colossi and voidraycount ... and so on ... TL;DR: wrong & badscouting, wrong techchoices -> blind building army as zerg is your death When I saw the fast robo I did lings becouse he can make warp prism and with later 4 warpgates kill me using warp to my main. I did die to this tactic quite few times because I was not prepaired. Also you talking about you see fast tech go kill him, well he has very fast observer, so he saw everything I did. Against good player its better to play macro game and not try to kill him if I see few, units. Better player know how to react to it. So I don't choose "go fu.cking kill him" approach but, go fu.cking outexpand him. (only problem there was my mistek with rallypoint on gas so I kept making drons and expanding little bit late after.) Also if I see he is expanding and see he has robo what I need to scout in 6 to minute 10 minute mark?? If I am playing macrogame I need to scout only if I can be killed some sort of fast attack, but I knew he can't kill me with fast robo and expand. And I did scout 2 stargate quite fast to know he is going mass voidrays so I couldn't attack after with rouches so I expand more. And btw getting mutas with observer in my main and 2 stargates on way is not a good idea. Anyway I know that I really scrue my early mid game, but I didn't get to some big economical disadvantage. My point with this rep wasnt to show you how imba protoss is, my point was show you that you can't play macro game aginst this style because no matter what you throw at him he will roll you over. About trying to kill him early, his build was very inteligent. He made very fast observer so he knows exactly what you doing and could respond to it. When he lost observer he already have stargate and could continue to scout, and meanwhile make bunch of voidrays to prevent midgame rouche bust or phenoixes to prevent midgame mutalisks. So the best reaction to this if he know what you doing and you know he can't kill you is to expand more and play macro game which is paradoxly in this case lethal... | ||
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Suerte
United States117 Posts
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Sid
Slovakia8 Posts
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On February 23 2011 05:58 Meatpuppet wrote: Fundamental issue, Aqueos? I'm sort of confused cause you seem to validate my points while at the same time coming from a position of contention. What does the success or failure of other strategies have anything to do with the focus of discussion besides being red herrings. Does the fact Huk can win w/o Collosi/Void Ray mean anything? No. Or that Kiwikakki uses a Mothership based strategy just as well? HaHaHa, Archon toilet, mwhahaha, No. Apologies, Meatpuppet. What I believed your post was stating was that it will lead to a singular playstyle being the norm in PvZ due to one powerful strategy defeating most of what the Zerg has to bear. What I meant to say was that I do not believe this is the case, as Protoss does have other options. If I could make a simile, it is a lot like PvT early game. Terran has a large variety of openings they use on Protoss, each of which requires a specific counter from Protoss. Protoss, once it discovers what opening Terran is using, is usually able to counter it by adjusting their tech to some degree. (For example, an early MM push requires more sentries, or a fast immortal, while Banshees require stalkers to counter). Although one of these early pushes could be considered to be overwhelmingly powerful against a certain build for Protoss, such as Banshees against a sentry-heavy play, we don't only see Terran opening up with Banshees. To relate it back to the issue at hand, I think that the "every game becomes a 2base all-in" with small scouting information won't happen as long as Protoss has more than one viable endgame strategy. This one just happens to be the flavour of the month, and will eventually die down due to Zerg learning an effective and timely counter. If I misunderstood your post, I apologise once more. I thought that you said that having an all-in like this would render the game boring without decision making, as the all-in would negate scouting and choices. | ||
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TNine
United States46 Posts
On February 22 2011 09:22 xbankx wrote: No he is implying that zerg shouldn't try to play standard when toss is making a unit composition to counter your standard play by going all-in. Its basically saying in PvT, I scout a terran going 1 base stim all-in with 3 rax but I still do my regular 1 gate FE build. Am I going to lose? Yes because I didn't adapt to what my terran player is doing and just went standard. Zerg has to learn to adapt to changing play style instead of saying Im going hydra/roach/corruptor no matter what the toss does. So what should the Zerg do? The problem isn't that the strat beats Zerg standard play, its that it beats Zerg play. Saying "lol adapt" doesn't work unless there is something to adapt to... I personally think that counters will arise in the metagame, but it isn't going to be some kind of obvious strategy or massing a single unit. | ||
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TNine
United States46 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
So what should the Zerg do? The problem isn't that the strat beats Zerg standard play, its that it beats Zerg play. Saying "lol adapt" doesn't work unless there is something to adapt to.. And this has been popular for what; a month? | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On February 23 2011 03:42 Ribbon wrote: Oh my god, I got a pro-gamer to rage at me. I'm actually fanboying a little (though I have to admit, I'm holding out for Idra). But I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed. I'd expect a pro-gamer (assuming he didn't just ignore me; which is also valid) to explain why I'm wrong. In an angry or sarcastic way? Sure, I guess. I can dig the condescension, 'specially when it's funny. While insulting me? Sure. It's the internet, yo, and I did start it by being a little flippant. But the conversation went like this: Catz: Mothership is OP against Zerg. Ribbon: Then why don't protoss use it*? Catz: Because you're a fag/Scottish Noble. That makes me sad, Catz. First off, the analogy you describe doesn't make sense. If the Scottish Nobles were bad because they mindlessly obeyed established authority figures, and you're mad at me because I'm being a dick to established authority figures such as yourself (admittedly a fair point), I don't really get your comparison. So please stop building yourself up as some kind of anti-authority freedom fighter when the whole thread is full of people who agree with you because you have the word "root" in your username. You have declared that Mothership is OP. Your arguments to back up this statement have been 1. The game hasn't been figured out yet, so Protoss doesn't know how powerful it is 2. FREEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOMMMMMM. To which I reply 1. Doesn't this imply that Zerg possibly haven't figured out how OP such-and-such a build of their own is? 2. Okay. Now, I will admit. You're a progamer. You spend a lot more time thinking about the game than I do. While I think the "You're in platinum, therefore you don't know hotkeys" elitism is rather overblown, you absolutely have more ingrained knowledge of the game and it's mechanics/timings than I do. The fact that you, a pro-gamer, believe something carries a little weight. It is not inherently conclusive evidence. Even if a majority of pro-gamers believed something, it wouldn't necessarily make it true, though the evidence needed to overturn such a belief would be high. A lot of people on this site fall into argument from authority. But an argument doesn't depend on who said it. No one would take your post seriously if you used a smurf account. It's not a serious post. When day[9] makes a statement of "X is good", he generally gives a lot of evidence for it. Usually he devotes an entire daily to examining why X is good. Because he provides convincing evidence, I tend to believe him. You yourself submitted some great games to his mass queen Funday Monday, showing a lot of the strengths of that build (albeit not the weaknesses). When someone like Idra (or yourself in this case, but I don't follow you enough to know if this is normal for you) says "X is good", he gives a bunch of theorycraft and the fact that he's Idra. That's why there's 40 pages of fighting in this thread. He didn't really convince people. He issued a statement from on high. There's been some good debates in this thread. I was earlier going with the conventional wisdom of the counter to turtling being to take the whole map. Someone explained to me, using logic, why that was wrong in this case, and I admitted it. I can admit when I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong about Protoss lategame being solvable. It's certainly possible. And I'll believe I'm wrong when one of the following things happen: 1. Someone with a lot of knowledge (regardless of rank) goes through a real game Day[9] style and explains why a lot of the zerg complaints hold true against actual Protoss players, and not just hypothetical ones where Protoss has infinite resources and foresight. 2. Motherships get used against Zerg a lot, and Zerg have a hard time against it at a high level for a decent amount of time. I don't expect you, or anyone, do put in the work of doing the former. I'd like it, but we all have school, or jobs, or porn as better potential uses of our valuable time than spending a huge amount of mental energy fighting with an asshat like me on the internet. So I guess we have to wait for a mothership era to emerge. Fair enough. You're free to virtually and gently spit in my face if I'm wrong. + Show Spoiler + Also, the English killed William Wallace. *Specifically, I asked if toss were stupid. I'm a little amused that your response can be tl;dr-ed to "yes". BeefNoodles got the point, im not arguing with you about balance, im challenging you to think outside the box instead of taking what happens in GSL as your bible. And yes William Wallace died but he also planted his seed in the queen on whales, soon to be queen of england AND inspired the Scottish to fight for freedom that they got by fighting like warrior Poets. duh. I dont have an hour show to explain and illustrate to you why I think something may be too strong. Even voidray colossus, someone mentined Zeerax earlier... the guy thinks for himself, he's a great player, and a really nice guy. He still does voidray colossus, but he gets maxxed off voidrays and only gets a few colossus in the composition, mainly to shut down hydra, you don't need more than just a few, the guy's brilliant, yes its a sort-of-abusive build that WILL get nerfed, but he's still brilliant. He's one step ahead of everyone else as far as this build goes: voidrays are the key to this build, not colossus. He's been doing it since the beta and he found ways to improve upon the build that people in korea are 'just' discovering. Voidrays need a nerf vs Z, and they'll get nerfed, period. I won't tell you facts and show you the power of the math, and I don't encourage anyone to think im right because im me, I don't care. I've said this before, this game would be much more interesting if there was no replays, vods or streams. Of course it wouldn't be as popular or easy to follow and would probably die. but as far as gameplay goes, how cool would it be if you were forced to use your own brain and draw your own conclusions based on experience. A Real "Real Time Strategy Game" rather than 'lets all follow what MC and MVP do because they got better mechanics than everyone else' 'i don't understand what im doing, but it must be right, cause I saw it on gsl'. Some may say im a dreamer, but im not the only one. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 23 2011 09:37 CatZ.root wrote: BeefNoodles got the point, im not arguing with you about balance, im challenging you to think outside the box instead of taking what happens in GSL as your bible. And yes William Wallace died but he also planted his seed in the queen on whales, soon to be queen of england AND inspired the Scottish to fight for freedom that they got by fighting like warrior Poets. duh. I dont have an hour show to explain and illustrate to you why I think something may be too strong. Even voidray colossus, someone mentined Zeerax earlier... the guy thinks for himself, he's a great player, and a really nice guy. He still does voidray colossus, but he gets maxxed off voidrays and only gets a few colossus in the composition, mainly to shut down hydra, you don't need more than just a few, the guy's brilliant, yes its a sort-of-abusive build that WILL get nerfed, but he's still brilliant. He's one step ahead of everyone else as far as this build goes: voidrays are the key to this build, not colossus. He's been doing it since the beta and he found ways to improve upon the build that people in korea are 'just' discovering. Voidrays need a nerf vs Z, and they'll get nerfed, period. I won't tell you facts and show you the power of the math, and I don't encourage anyone to think im right because im me, I don't care. I've said this before, this game would be much more interesting if there was no replays, vods or streams. Of course it wouldn't be as popular or easy to follow and would probably die. but as far as gameplay goes, how cool would it be if you were forced to use your own brain and draw your own conclusions based on experience. A Real "Real Time Strategy Game" rather than 'lets all follow what MC and MVP do because they got better mechanics than everyone else' 'i don't understand what im doing, but it must be right, cause I saw it on gsl'. Some may say im a dreamer, but im not the only one. My problem is that people will take you as Bible, which isn't really better. A pro-gamer is a representative of the e-sports community, and thus should be held to a higher standard. Unfortunately, a lot of people hold you to a lower standard. No non-pro could get away with calling themselves William Wallace and expect the community to rally behind them. I can't seem to figure out "standard" ZvZ at all. If I go hatch-first, I die. If I go speedling first, I can't seem to punish hatch first enough to not be economically behind. So I'm going speedling expand into mass queens and some spines, because I tend to power drones/tech too hard and the 0 larva queens help me get away with it. Will that work at a pro level? Dunno. Winning a lot more ZvZs, though. Does this build work because it mitigates my own personal weaknesses, or because it's awesome and all the pros should start doing it? Probably the former. Nonzero chance of the latter. The fact that you're a pro-gamer means that your mechanics are amazing, your builds are tight, you instinctively know the timings down to the second, and you can recall a lot of information about the game in-game to let you react well to what you scout. It does not mean you possess a book of secrets known only to you. The difference between the top of bronze and Idra, after all, is basically mechanics, timing, and tightness of builds. Not magic, which a lot of people tend to think and act like. That's probably why I don't like "Imbalanced!" so much. Idra doesn't make a point conclusively or with games/replays backing him up. He makes a statement, and the fans buy it instantly. You said that the game would be more interesting if people had to use their brains more. I agree. But I see a lot of pro-gamers, yourself included, basically telling us not to use our brains because it's futile: The build is unbeatable. I don't think that's really helpful, and I don't think it's a good attitude to be instilling in fans. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
Sometimes when watching IdrA games I am getting this impression his mindset is too simple, that it's almost copied mindset of a BW Terran player - use means necessary to estabilish better economy and win mostly thanks to that. With unit composition and how he engages in battles not being that important to him. He can pull great flanks in open areas but once there are ramps and tight passages (like on Jungle Basin) he doesn't even try to attack from more than 1 side. Yesterday he didn't even care to make Baneling Speed, also I don't remember many attempts to intercept Jinro's reinforcements. I skimmed through this thread a bit but I have no idea if someone else has mentioned something like this (I sent this in 2 mails to imbalancedshow@gmail.com, here they are combined): First off all I would you to take a look on my thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193745 and tell me if you can find this way of stacking air units useful. It doesn't seem to me to be much different from the BW way of stacking air units except the unit used to trigger the magic box needs to be in a state that allows it to move (it can't be a larva or a burrowed zergling) but can be blocked by other units to prevent it from suiciding into something during microing air units. About Infestors. Is their use really explored? I mean mostly Fungal Growth. I don't think you mentioned them during eps 1 and 3. If I am correct all you mentioned about them was that Ret was trying to use them. I know that you are immediately going to say "Colossi snipe them easily" so first, I want to focus a bit about possible ways to protect them. They are a lower threat to enemy units than pure combat units such as Roaches. Could Overlords also be used to block opponent's vision and prevent him from sniping them before they can cast anything? What do you think about using Fungal Growth to separate Protoss army whenever P wants to move it? For example when he moves out to pressure Zerg, could a Fungal placed well enough (or few Fungals) root a part of P's army and kill that part if P would choose to keep on moving [with the rest of his army]? I of course mean to kill it with other units and not just Fungal. Can it be used to minimize damage P can do, a sort of an investment that allows less Zerg units to die? What about holding Stalkers in place, especially after they Blink and are nicely clumped, to abuse their immobility and snipe some Colossi with Corruptors? In a kind of reverse situationm could casting a Fungal(s) on few Colossi be used take care of Gateway units that aren't protected by those Colossi? Or even better: keeping Zerg units spread out with Infestors all around places where P may move and abusing any moment when P separates his army, even baiting P to do this and casting Fungals on both separated parts of an Protoss army and killing them while they are separated? Would it be easier to use (stacked) Corruptors to deal with fungaled and because of that, spread out Void Rays? If they could be kept spread they wouldn't all be able to attack and charge up. Could [Zerg] attacks and drops on expos be used to force P to move and [what if Zerg would] then cast a Fungal and make P decide whether he wants to save his base or not let the rooted part of his army die? Could Infestors be used in this way to make Queens happen more in ZvP? I think their biggest problem is the time needed for them to gain enough energy for multiple transfusions. Could Infestors be used to gain this time? Can Queens may be a better response or at least a great supplement to Hydras against Void Rays? I mean, you said that Hydras can't be an answer to Void Rays because Colossi just melt them. On the other hand using Corruptors contains a threat of Protoss switching to more Gateway units that Corruptors just can't hit. So in the end, something different than Corruptors is better. Something that can be used in more ways. But if Colossi can be kept under relative control with Fungal, can Hydras become an unit worthy to be morphed once again? [hmmmm I'm not sure now if the last part about Hydras makes much sense] | ||
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arrrk
63 Posts
When making the thread for your shows, could you start with something like IMBALANCED - and then the topic? When i'm about to go to bed I come here and usually watch a stream cause I like watching stuff when I am going to bed. I generally glance at the few threads on the front page too so if I see it I could just watch it instead. would really appreciate it lol | ||
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TNine
United States46 Posts
On February 23 2011 09:28 Tyrant0 wrote: And this has been popular for what; a month? Doesn't make his example any less fallacious. If a Terran is going for an early all-in, you should be more defensive and not play too econ-heavy, it has a clear and obvious counter. If a Protoss does this, you should...? Counters will arise, but Zergies aren't losing due to a failure to adapt. | ||
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LiMs
15 Posts
Alternatively, seeing as it's 'so easy to execute' and 'all you have to do is play responsively' why doesn't Idra just off-race as protoss whenever he's playing against zerg? If it's as easy as he says, he could maintain a 100% win record against any zerg... | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 23 2011 14:41 TNine wrote: Doesn't make his example any less fallacious. If a Terran is going for an early all-in, you should be more defensive and not play too econ-heavy, it has a clear and obvious counter. If a Protoss does this, you should...? Counters will arise, but Zergies aren't losing due to a failure to adapt. I would like to remind people that aggressive Terran was considered insta-win against Z in GSL 2, even if the Zerg played defensively. The theory was that Zerg had to 14 hatch every game to get the larva they needed, but if they 14 hatched they wouldn't have the pool up in time. In fact, if you go through Artosis' twitter history, you see the following tweets: there's an unscoutable 2 rax rush on asia right now, and even if you make speedlings non-stop, you cannot even put a dent in it. it looks like zerg might have to get a blind baneling nest if suspecting terran has 2 barracks. probably can get it after lair though the build is basically 2 fast barracks (you cut 1 scv) and you pump marines nonstop. hit critical mass, and send marines+some scvs. Some people suggested make some spine crawlers, to which Artosis responded (in a thread that was closed because he didn't provide a replay, just as he didn't here. Tsk tsk) On November 19 2010 13:43 Artosis wrote: ok time to teach some stuff to some folks: "Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build) that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels. This build was impossible, it was imba, it was in desperate need on a nerf, and it stopped happening. What did Zerg do that beat it, even on Blizzard maps (and remember, this was imba even cross-positions Shakuras). They....made a spine crawler. If you positioned it so that it covered your expansion hatchery and your ramp, you were okay. That took a very long time to figure out. It was so imba, BitByBitPrime got to the round of 16 doing it. Then it was solved. Remember when close positions on Shakuras was auto-loss for Zerg? Byun called it "unbeatable", and I think it was MKP who said Terran won 95% of the time close positions Shakuras. That was around for a while auto-killing Zergs. Then it was solved. In both cases, the solution was something that was weird and counter-intuitive. Indeed, Artosis dismissed Spine Crawlers as a solution to SCV Marine all-ins out of hand. So I'm a little dismissive of the "I can't solve it in a week, ergo it's imba" argument when it's been wrong repeatedly before. If the deathball's really imba, it'll start dominating and we'll eventually see every Protoss on all regions use it. If it's not, it'll be solved by a sufficiently clever team eventually. | ||
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Buruguduy
Philippines238 Posts
While zerg has coped with it and survives it, but it doesn't mean its at all solved. 5-rax repear, zerg survived those times, coped with it, but it was imbalanced and was nerfed. When the void/collo strat gets nerfed (or zerg gets buffed to deal with it), which it will be 100%, be prepared for a lot of i told you so's. | ||
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lickinganoose
Canada18 Posts
and just hide mass muta...??? | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 23 2011 15:39 Buruguduy wrote: Ribbon, again, what's with this assumption that 2-rax was solved? When did the 2-rax become solved? i'm pretty sure it's still strong as hell, especially on close positions. Wasn't that the reason they made new bigger maps? Dustin Bowder, the lead balance person in blizz said it was GARBAGE. While zerg has coped with it and survives it, but it doesn't mean its at all solved. 5-rax repear, zerg survived those times, coped with it, but it was imbalanced and was nerfed. I'm more of a GSL guy (which isn't intended as a slight against NA or EU players, which I think Catz took it as when I asked why the build wasn't seen in the GSL; I just don't have enough hours in a day to follow more than one tournament). Compare GSL 3 and GSL 4 (which used the same map pool). I feel like 3 has rather more instances of the SCV all-in, no? Granted, Zerg didn't have to play on Steppes in GSL 4, but given that 2 rax SCV Marine all-ins worked against Nestea on cross-positions Shakuras in the GSL 2 finals... EDIT: Oh wait, I remember you from up-thread. You're in masters and I'm in platinum, so therefore I'm not allowed to have an opinion because I might interpret a build falling off the face of the biggest tournament in the world as a sign it had become weaker rather than the truth visible only to Master-League players. I apologize for being presumptuous. User was warned for this post | ||
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Buruguduy
Philippines238 Posts
On February 23 2011 15:45 Ribbon wrote: I'm more of a GSL guy (which isn't intended as a slight against NA or EU players, which I think Catz took it as when I asked why the build wasn't seen in the GSL; I just don't have enough hours in a day to follow more than one tournament). Compare GSL 3 and GSL 4 (which used the same map pool). I feel like 3 has rather more instances of the SCV all-in, no? Granted, Zerg didn't have to play on Steppes in GSL 4, but given that 2 rax SCV Marine all-ins worked against Nestea on cross-positions Shakuras in the GSL 2 finals... EDIT: Oh wait, I remember you from up-thread. You're in masters and I'm in platinum, so therefore I'm not allowed to have an opinion because I might interpret a build falling off the face of the biggest tournament in the world as a sign it had become weaker rather than the truth visible only to Master-League players. I apologize for being presumptuous. What? you didn't even address anything i said. What I'm saying is 2-rax isn't solved, it is still super strong. You didn't even consider that hte lead balance designer of Blizz called it garbage. True zerg coped with it, but it doesn't mean that zerg is playing on even footing is my point. Meaning, it isn't solved. Solved implies that you come out both equal. P.S. Platinum or not, you're just dumb User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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