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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On February 23 2011 04:50 Qzy wrote: If colos + voidray is OP .. Then what about banshees + marauders vs. Toss? Isn't it kinda of the same? hard to call a build that can't attack air OP | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On February 23 2011 04:19 gnutz wrote: Actually in Europe most Zergs have figured out how to beat this, so it is imo not imbalanced. VR and Colossus are a HUGE investment, it is like getting Mass Ultralisks and Infestors at the same time. So a really only Lategame Army. If you can get there it is fine, but - on big maps Zerg can easily get T3 in time and some good units. The rest is pure Colossus Imbalance, why it is so hard to beat. - on smaller maps (like LT, Metal ...) there you have no time to get Voidrays and Colossus. You die nearly to every drop or multi-pronged attack. I tried it multiple times, but it just doesn't work on 3000 points Masterleague. You cant just go to Voidray and Colossus instant. The only way to get there are mutliple army trades with your normal deathball. €: Often it works on pro level. I just cannot figure out how. A week ago i saw Insolence do this. He died to a simple Roachdrop from Darkforce. I think most Pro-Zergs were just way too passive. It's a shame that they only talk about this, rather than possibly show it through a replay because to a lot of people it just seems like theory craft between a bunch of whiners. But, it requires a bit more than just sitting in your base, you have to scout and play reactively. Because toss can get hallucinated phoenix and observers, they can basically watch everything you do whether you like it or not, you might be able to deny observers scouting with spores or overseers but that phoenix is gonna get in your base. Essentially it's a sentry expand reactive build that goes for an end game voids and colossi ball. They have a lot of AtA? more stalkers. A lot of GtA? more colossi. They have a hard counter to voids/colossi? hard counter that hard counter. This is what artosis was talking about and idra was basically agreeing that when toss gets to that point there is nothing zerg can do. Of course, there are ALWAYS timing attacks zerg can do to prevent this but I believe the main point, is that once toss gets there, winning is pretty much unobtainable for Zerg. I mean, I feel that a strong 2 base timing attack with mass hydra drops can kill a toss 100% after a failed warp gate rush or maybe 50-60% if they are turtling. However, this has nothing to do with the build they are discussing, that is just a specific timing against protoss. Yea, low economy (or lower than you are used to seeing from zergs), aggression and tricky tactics can certainly beat a protoss but the point is that if toss can get there it's unbeatable (which may or may not be true, this show is opinionated backed with examples from GSL and practice games, and if you don't like it don't watch it). Is it unbeatable? Possibly. Why? Because zergs GtA arsenal is just terrible, and their AtG (the mutalisk) just gets beaten by phoenix which is completely doable when going voids/colossi. I'd rather see the scourge return than see a corrupter buff or perhaps just a complete change in the corrupter itself. I really see no use for the corrupter at ALL except to counter massive shit or make broodlords, I feel like this unit had a cool idea but was just stripped of all coolness and is now this stupid boring unit that has an extreme niche. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
and Each colossus takes ages 75s to build Each Voidray takes 60s to build and this always 1 at a time. i would appreciate a Replay that shows this unbeatable Combo in Action so we could analyse the options of the zerg instead of theorycrafting. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On February 23 2011 05:01 emc wrote: It's a shame that they only talk about this, rather than possibly show it through a replay because to a lot of people it just seems like theory craft between a bunch of whiners. But, it requires a bit more than just sitting in your base, you have to scout and play reactively. Because toss can get hallucinated phoenix and observers, they can basically watch everything you do whether you like it or not, you might be able to deny observers scouting with spores or overseers but that phoenix is gonna get in your base. Essentially it's a sentry expand reactive build that goes for an end game voids and colossi ball. They have a lot of AtA? more stalkers. A lot of GtA? more colossi. They have a hard counter to voids/colossi? hard counter that hard counter. This is what artosis was talking about and idra was basically agreeing that when toss gets to that point there is nothing zerg can do. Of course, there are ALWAYS timing attacks zerg can do to prevent this but I believe the main point, is that once toss gets there, winning is pretty much unobtainable for Zerg. I mean, I feel that a strong 2 base timing attack with mass hydra drops can kill a toss 100% after a failed warp gate rush or maybe 50-60% if they are turtling. However, this has nothing to do with the build they are discussing, that is just a specific timing against protoss. Yea, low economy (or lower than you are used to seeing from zergs), aggression and tricky tactics can certainly beat a protoss but the point is that if toss can get there it's unbeatable (which may or may not be true, this show is opinionated backed with examples from GSL and practice games, and if you don't like it don't watch it). Is it unbeatable? Possibly. Why? Because zergs GtA arsenal is just terrible, and their AtG (the mutalisk) just gets beaten by phoenix which is completely doable when going voids/colossi. I'd rather see the scourge return than see a corrupter buff or perhaps just a complete change in the corrupter itself. I really see no use for the corrupter at ALL except to counter massive shit or make broodlords, I feel like this unit had a cool idea but was just stripped of all coolness and is now this stupid boring unit that has an extreme niche. My point was just, why doing 2 Shows for one and the same thing: The Colossus? Voidrays are not nearly OP, yes, they are strong, but they got nerfed several times. I also just dont get the idea behind the show. Why not talking about how to do something against it, even if it is harder to play? Because on 3k Masterleague i just don't feel Imbalance, if a Zerg can do more than only macroing for the whole game. It is really hard for me to play against Zerg, harder then against Terran. The point is, they do a show where they say what's imbalanced and what's not, and then all the Zergs agree and do nothing more to get better, while they could win every game against Protoss. Even on Europe Top Level Protoss' do so many mistakes, that the Zergs have at least a 50 % chance of winning against a Protoss. | ||
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tyrless
United States485 Posts
I think the next show should be about the Mutalisk, could make a much stronger case for that than the Collosus  | ||
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Sadist
United States7327 Posts
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On February 23 2011 05:16 tyrless wrote: Huk showed us in his GSL games that neither the Collosus nor Void Ray are integral/necessary to army composition against zerg, and if they were unbalanced as claimed then he and probably every other Protoss in the GSL would be using them religiously. I think the next show should be about the Mutalisk, could make a much stronger case for that than the Collosus Yes, that is another point. If you do a mistake with Colossi, you are basically instant screwed. So it is like Terran Mech. If you get to the point where you have the big army, there is nearly nothing that can be done (only do mass multipronged attack, because it is immobile as hell, for which Idra is the main example for never doing it), but if you lose something before that, you have nearly no way to come back. And lol @ the mutalisks, they are not imbalanced, but it is also hard as hell to play against them. Same thing with TvP early game. Every P player nowadays can survive it (on balanced maps). | ||
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tyrless
United States485 Posts
And lol @ the mutalisks, they are not imbalanced, but it is also hard as hell to play against them. Same thing with TvP early game. Every P player nowadays can survive it (on balanced maps). Didn't say they were imbalanced, I challenged them to pick on a unit for which a stronger case can be made than the Collosus. The game is balanced so they are picking straw men for their arguments either way. | ||
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Meatpuppet
United States86 Posts
Is it with the show? Zerg QQ'ing? The main thing I feel is going on with this show is I think noone wants a boring stale game. A game where sitting on 2 base for 30 minutes and then pushing with a deathball is the best strategy. Ultimately I think these are a couple of starcraft fans wanting to see the game played more dynamically. Thinking on your toes, being very quick, scouting, expanding aggressively. | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On February 23 2011 05:29 Meatpuppet wrote: The main thing I feel is going on with this show is I think noone wants a boring stale game. A game where sitting on 2 base for 30 minutes and then pushing with a deathball is the best strategy. Ultimately I think these are a couple of starcraft fans wanting to see the game played more dynamically. Thinking on your toes, being very quick, scouting, expanding aggressively. I don't think this is the fundamental issue though. If this strategy CANNOT be beaten by Zerg save by a special build order that only works against this, then the game will become stale as everyone uses this strategy, then immediately transitions into its counter as soon as the Zerg responds. However, this isn't the only strategy that Protoss use, probably because it does have its counters that Zerg can use. If this strategy gave a guaranteed win, or even a really high chance of victory, people would use it nonstop. However, people like Kiwikaki use a mothership-based strategy, while others still use more standard strategies, implying that the game won't descend into the "hide on 2 bases and make a deathball" that is counterproductive. If this sort of strategy did not exist, then scouting doesn't really matter, as you can basically guarantee that Protoss won't do a 2-base all-in. All-ins require a special response, so not everything a Protoss does should be countered by minor deviations on "playing standard" | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On February 23 2011 04:50 Qzy wrote: If colos + voidray is OP .. Then what about banshees + marauders vs. Toss? Isn't it kinda of the same? Wow... You are either trolling or really bad at the game... | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
But hidden spire is probably the most evil hidden tech you can do. | ||
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Meatpuppet
United States86 Posts
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Qzy
Denmark1121 Posts
On February 23 2011 04:56 Beef Noodles wrote: hard to call a build that can't attack air OP Throw in some vikings too then... remember the scans to remove observers for the additional 10% OPness. | ||
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FreedonNadd
Austria573 Posts
PvZ Colossus+Carrier vs Larva and Overlord, aka "The hard life from Larva to Overlord, and dying before you get a chance to fire a single shot." or TvP: Marauder vs Gateway units, how hard it is for Toss without Sentries | ||
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Sid
Slovakia8 Posts
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Karu
Germany6 Posts
Fast tech means few units - as day[9] would say: "go fu.cking kill him" After that u went roach - and spire - and infestation pit and a 9 roach push at minute 11 against a colossi. No Overseer - no scouting after minute 6 to minute 10 (overseer for changeling perhaps - u where practially BLIND) at 14(!) min u finally tryed to scout - but didn't scout much - your expand is late ... Your Early and mid game costs u the game - not the "imba deathball". Getting mutas 2 min earlyer (yeah, 1 phoenix+1 stalker vs 6 mutas = drone harras) forcing units -> less colossi and voidraycount ... and so on ... TL;DR: wrong & badscouting, wrong techchoices -> blind building army as zerg is your death | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On February 23 2011 05:51 Huragius wrote: Wow... You are either trolling or really bad at the game... Hahaha, I was thinking "...wait, VRs can't attack air? What game am I playing??" | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On February 23 2011 06:41 Karu wrote: @Sid: u didn't scout the front perodicaly (so u didn't saw no sentrys) - so u didn't saw his units NO sentry - pylonblock in front (baneling bust it?!). You saw his fast robo AND the robobay - u respond with 16 lings with speed comming up (could be 8 drones and faster lair). Fast tech means few units - as day[9] would say: "go fu.cking kill him" After that u went roach - and spire - and infestation pit and a 9 roach push at minute 11 against a colossi. No Overseer - no scouting after minute 6 to minute 10 (overseer for changeling perhaps - u where practially BLIND) at 14(!) min u finally tryed to scout - but didn't scout much - your expand is late ... Your Early and mid game costs u the game - not the "imba deathball". Getting mutas 2 min earlyer (yeah, 1 phoenix+1 stalker vs 6 mutas = drone harras) forcing units -> less colossi and voidraycount ... and so on ... TL;DR: wrong & badscouting, wrong techchoices -> blind building army as zerg is your death So that's a quote that proves my point. There are so many things most Zergs can do better, but they just say "It's imbalanced" because Idra says it, don't look at their own play, that they have so many flaws which could easily be better. So 3500 Masters? Just proves it more. I honestly think i am going to say to every Zerg who loses to VR/Colossus "just go Ultra Queen" because it's basically the same (even higher Gas costs) Investment, if you go Voidrays and Colossuses. Not that it is realistic, but it shows how much Investment that Tech is, and you just cannot switch easy out there as Protoss. | ||
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Suerte
United States117 Posts
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