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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
Are you implying that no zvp goes beyond the 15 minute mark? I fail to see your point. No, I'm implying that the protoss has to sit for a very long time to build up this perfect composition and the zerg is expected to play it standard and create the late game roach hydra corruptor composition this build is designed to defeat? | ||
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
On February 22 2011 08:31 Mercury- wrote: Is the next episode going to be about mass Thors vs Zerg? I see what you did there lol | ||
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Creem
Sweden254 Posts
On February 22 2011 08:30 Tyrant0 wrote: No, I'm implying that the protoss has to sit for a very long time to build up this perfect composition and the zerg is expected to play it standard and create the late game roach hydra corruptor composition this build is designed to defeat? So what's the zerg supposed to do then, 4gate? :D Zerg is a macro oriented race with weak all-ins/pushes in early-mid game. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On February 22 2011 09:14 Creem wrote: So what's the zerg supposed to do then, 4gate? :D Zerg is a macro oriented race with weak all-ins/pushes in early-mid game. No he is implying that zerg shouldn't try to play standard when toss is making a unit composition to counter your standard play by going all-in. Its basically saying in PvT, I scout a terran going 1 base stim all-in with 3 rax but I still do my regular 1 gate FE build. Am I going to lose? Yes because I didn't adapt to what my terran player is doing and just went standard. Zerg has to learn to adapt to changing play style instead of saying Im going hydra/roach/corruptor no matter what the toss does. | ||
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dar0za
Canada74 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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Creem
Sweden254 Posts
On February 22 2011 09:22 xbankx wrote: No he is implying that zerg shouldn't try to play standard when toss is making a unit composition to counter your standard play by going all-in. Its basically saying in PvT, I scout a terran going 1 base stim all-in with 3 rax but I still do my regular 1 gate FE build. Am I going to lose? Yes because I didn't adapt to what my terran player is doing and just went standard. Zerg has to learn to adapt to changing play style instead of saying Im going hydra/roach/corruptor no matter what the toss does. Aha, so that's why zerg struggles in zvp - they can't adapt. Please think before you post next time, or are you honestly believing that you know something that prozergs don't? If it was as easy as adapting I'm sure it would've been done by now. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On February 22 2011 09:38 Creem wrote: Aha, so that's why zerg struggles in zvp - they can't adapt. Please think before you post next time, or are you honestly believing that you know something that prozergs don't? If it was as easy as adapting I'm sure it would've been done by now. What pro zergs are you talking about? In the highest level games of GSL only 1 game of this build was actually used. Now if you want to talk about reaper nerf where we seen many zerg lose to in top level play then maybe we can make a case. Also zerg can adapt. Zerg has been adapting since beta. At the start of beta, 1 base hydra by zerg was seemed as OP as toss tried to do the old forge expand. During GSL 2-3, we seen zerg adapt to muta play with highest win percentage(something like 80) against toss because toss is still going the anti-roach/hydra mid game stalker/colo army. Zerg used to FE on any Map no matter what. Now zerg throws down pool first to retain map control with speedling and have the ability to stop cheese easier. Heck even game by game zerg adapt, zerg isn't going mass roach when they see double starport making void rays. Is the zerg still going to call muta/ling/bling when terran goes mech(thor/hellions/marines)? No because the idea that zerg can't adapt to game state is just false else. Top US and European Zergs gave their suggestions on how they would beat it but Idra and Artosis basically said "no it won't work because...(start the theorycrafting)". I would prefer some zerg here to actually try what top European/American zerg have suggested on the show.You can say "oh they aren't as good as Idra so their opinion is worthless when idra said it won't work" but guess what some of the strongest strategy came from foreigners such as the 5 rax reapers vs zerg. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On February 20 2011 04:40 Dommk wrote: Aside from Void/Colossus and the regular Colossus/Stalker/Sentry/Immo, what is there that hasn't been used? phoenix openers, cannon openers, in general not as unit compositions, are very strong. and also Mothership is ridiculously strong vs Z but nearly no one uses it | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On February 22 2011 09:38 Creem wrote: Aha, so that's why zerg struggles in zvp - they can't adapt. Please think before you post next time, or are you honestly believing that you know something that prozergs don't? If it was as easy as adapting I'm sure it would've been done by now. I've not seen many pro-Zergs struggling so hard against this strat. 2 PvZ were plaid in GSL the last day and this strat wasn't used one single time... I can bet you wouldn't see it in the next PvZ either... Besides, I believe that Zerg should stop thinking very highly of their macro and put back their late game playstyle into question... Sure Zerg players expand a lot and know how to use inject larvae and produce a lot of drones but exploiting a natural strength of your race doesn't mean you have a good macro... Knowing how to deal with or prevent complex late-game situations such as mass voidrays/colossi is real macro. I would go as far as saying that contrary to popular belief, most Zergs in fact have terrible macro and it is the reason why a lot of them are failing hard to this... Often times when I watch my replays (master league) I notice them being maxed with too many roaches and drones and not pushing, rather waiting to get demolished by the Protoss deathball and losing with 2k+ minerals banked... | ||
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SargonTheGreat
United States217 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On February 22 2011 10:05 TeWy wrote: I've not seen many pro-Zergs struggling so hard against this strat. 2 PvZ were plaid in GSL the last day and this strat wasn't used one single time... I can bet you wouldn't see it in the next PvZ either... Besides, I believe that Zerg should stop thinking very highly of their macro and put back their late game playstyle into question... Sure Zerg players expand a lot and know how to use inject larvae and produce a lot of drones but exploiting a natural strength of your race doesn't mean you have a good macro... Knowing how to deal with or prevent complex late-game situations such as mass voidrays/colossi is real macro. I would go as far as saying that contrary to popular belief, most Zergs in fact have terrible macro and it is the reason why a lot of them are failing hard to this... Often times when I watch my replays (master league) I notice them being maxed with too many roaches and drones and not pushing, rather waiting to get demolished by the Protoss deathball and losing with 2k+ minerals banked... Yeah - I was wondering this too. If this is so "good" then why aren't more pros doing it? Sure, the theoretical comp is scary but it takes SO DAMN LONG TO GET IT that it feels like the zerg can just go "How about muta infestor broodlord ultralisk hydralisk giraffe migration mass spore kitchen sink?" | ||
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SargonTheGreat
United States217 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 22 2011 09:50 CatZ.root wrote: phoenix openers, cannon openers, in general not as unit compositions, are very strong. and also Mothership is ridiculously strong vs Z but nearly no one uses it Why not? Are pro-level Protosses just dumb? Speaking of which, why haven't we seen this build in GSL 5 yet? If it's really super-imba-unbeatable, I figured we'd see it every game. | ||
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netherDrake
Singapore1831 Posts
On February 22 2011 12:39 Ribbon wrote: Why not? Are pro-level Protosses just dumb? Speaking of which, why haven't we seen this build in GSL 5 yet? If it's really super-imba-unbeatable, I figured we'd see it every game. There only have been 4 PvZ's so far, I'm sure we'll see this build used sometime. It's not unbeatable, but it's certainly very hard to stop when protoss manages to get the deathball. | ||
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HuggyBear
Australia377 Posts
Seems to be a very solid composition against Z | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
As a [2500 diamond] Terran, I feel like I have to severely outplay a protoss who is using Collossus, whether that be with multiple drops, insane MMM control, map control or sheer macro. I played a game last night where I used 2 dropships to kill some 10 units, mostly probes and a couple stalkers without losing a single unit of my own. I expanded behind this. About 2 minutes later he expands and just walks the cross positions Metalopolis and kills me with his Collossus. After watching the replay, his money got up to 1000 during my harass and mine stayed below 400. That was just fucking bullshit. Talkin about Void ray Collossus in PvZ is obviously different but my 2 cents are now in the pot. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On February 22 2011 12:44 HuggyBear wrote: I want to see them talk about the Archon Toilet or the Mothership in general. Seems to be a very solid composition against Z it's actually probably going to be considered broken pretty soon, once motherships are used more. right now, if one goes off, it's game over basically | ||
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JustinHit
United States196 Posts
Colossus 300 mins 200 gas 6 supply So about 3 corrupters should exist for each colossus. WRONG! you need like 6 for each colossus which is rediculous amount more minerals and gas than the protoss. BLIZZARD SO SMART!!!!!!!! | ||
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