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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 22 2011 15:22 HitStarcraft wrote:
Corrupters 150 mins 100 gas 2 supply
Colossus 300 mins 200 gas 6 supply
So about 3 corrupters should exist for each colossus. WRONG!
you need like 6 for each colossus which is rediculous amount more minerals and gas than the protoss.
BLIZZARD SO SMART!!!!!!!!
It's almost as if Blizzard wanted the races to play differently, and gave one race a lot more production power at the cost of less efficient units.
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phoenix openers, cannon openers, in general not as unit compositions, are very strong. and also Mothership is ridiculously strong vs Z but nearly no one uses it.
@ Mr Ribbon's
Why not? Are pro-level Protosses just dumb?
Speaking of which, why haven't we seen this build in GSL 5 yet? If it's really super-imba-unbeatable, I figured we'd see it every game.
this is the reason I don't post on forums very often, too many people like mr sarcasm here.
You haven't seen every build because THIS IS STILL A NEW GAME. I could tell terrans in the beta, literally, that they should put pressure early on. I can tell zergs u can stop 6 pool easily without even having or making a pool, I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe. I can tell you Infestor into broodlord is the correct way to play vs tank marine terrans in my opinion.
Protosses aren't dumb, they do what they know and what they can handle, what they've played with. and what they copy from the GSL players. EVERY server has VERY unique different styles. you know this "Voidray Colossus" imbalance that everyone's talking about and that you'll probably see in GSL soon... its been floating around in NA and EU for A LONG TIME. koreans just got to it, took them a bit longer because they were exploring other styles of play, and unluckily for the game, most people just copy what they see in GSL.
I guess what I am trying to say is, it is because of people like YOU mister sarcasm, that the game doesn't evolve very fast, because you can't think for yourself or draw your own conclusions, you have to wait for GSL to tell you what's viable, and what's good, and maybe some reassurance from Day9 or Artosis/Idra in 'IMBALANCED' would help.
so BREAKING NEWS FOR YOU: THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE STRATEGYS THAT YOU COPY AND HOLD IN SUCH HIGH STANDARDS, ARE ALSO JUST HUMAN! They can't just abuse everything there is to abuse because there are some people, and I want to count myself in that group, who make the effort to understand the game rather than copy someone or think that since koreans are koreans and live in korea and speak koreans they can make better strategy or draw any better conclusions than I can.
SO YEAH YOU CAN EXPECT FOR A BUNCH OF THINGS TO POP OUT OF NOWHERE, AND YOU CAN MARK MY WORDS: MOTHERSHIP IS TOO DAMN STRONG IN PVZ. AND WHEN EVERYONE IS USING MOTHERSHIP, I'LL COME BACK and GENTLY spit in your face.
With Love:
CatZ
edit: wanted to leave you with something to think about mr: "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps from Longshank's table that you've missed your God given right to something better" - W.Wallace (Mel Gibson) to the Scottish Nobles (All they ever did was agree and suck up to the powerful Englishmen)
(You're a Scottish Noble Ribbon, and I am William fuckn Wallace)
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On February 22 2011 23:58 CatZ.root wrote:
phoenix openers, cannon openers, in general not as unit compositions, are very strong. and also Mothership is ridiculously strong vs Z but nearly no one uses it.
@ Mr Ribbon's
Why not? Are pro-level Protosses just dumb?
Speaking of which, why haven't we seen this build in GSL 5 yet? If it's really super-imba-unbeatable, I figured we'd see it every game.
this is the reason I don't post on forums very often, too many people like mr sarcasm here.
You haven't seen every build because THIS IS STILL A NEW GAME. I could tell terrans in the beta, literally, that they should put pressure early on. I can tell zergs u can stop 6 pool easily without even having or making a pool, I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe. I can tell you Infestor into broodlord is the correct way to play vs tank marine terrans in my opinion.
Protosses aren't dumb, they do what they know and what they can handle, what they've played with. and what they copy from the GSL players. EVERY server has VERY unique different styles. you know this "Voidray Colossus" imbalance that everyone's talking about and that you'll probably see in GSL soon... its been floating around in NA and EU for A LONG TIME. koreans just got to it, took them a bit longer because they were exploring other styles of play, and unluckily for the game, most people just copy what they see in GSL.
I guess what I am trying to say is, it is because of people like YOU mister sarcasm, that the game doesn't evolve very fast, because you can't think for yourself or draw your own conclusions, you have to wait for GSL to tell you what's viable, and what's good, and maybe some reassurance from Day9 or Artosis/Idra in 'IMBALANCED' would help.
so BREAKING NEWS FOR YOU: THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE STRATEGYS THAT YOU COPY AND HOLD IN SUCH HIGH STANDARDS, ARE ALSO JUST HUMAN! They can't just abuse everything there is to abuse because there are some people, and I want to count myself in that group, who make the effort to understand the game rather than copy someone or think that since koreans are koreans and live in korea and speak koreans they can make better strategy or draw any better conclusions than I can.
SO YEAH YOU CAN EXPECT FOR A BUNCH OF THINGS TO POP OUT OF NOWHERE, AND YOU CAN MARK MY WORDS: MOTHERSHIP IS TOO DAMN STRONG IN PVZ. AND WHEN EVERYONE IS USING MOTHERSHIP, I'LL COME BACK and GENTLY spit in your face.
With Love:
CatZ
edit: wanted to leave you with something to think about mr: "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps from Longshank's table that you've missed your God given right to something better" - W.Wallace (Mel Gibson) to the Scottish Nobles (All they ever did was agree and suck up to the powerful Englishmen)
(You're a Scottish Noble Ribbon, and I am William fuckn Wallace)
<3
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On February 22 2011 23:58 CatZ.root wrote:
phoenix openers, cannon openers, in general not as unit compositions, are very strong. and also Mothership is ridiculously strong vs Z but nearly no one uses it.
@ Mr Ribbon's
Why not? Are pro-level Protosses just dumb?
Speaking of which, why haven't we seen this build in GSL 5 yet? If it's really super-imba-unbeatable, I figured we'd see it every game.
this is the reason I don't post on forums very often, too many people like mr sarcasm here.
You haven't seen every build because THIS IS STILL A NEW GAME. I could tell terrans in the beta, literally, that they should put pressure early on. I can tell zergs u can stop 6 pool easily without even having or making a pool, I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe. I can tell you Infestor into broodlord is the correct way to play vs tank marine terrans in my opinion.
Protosses aren't dumb, they do what they know and what they can handle, what they've played with. and what they copy from the GSL players. EVERY server has VERY unique different styles. you know this "Voidray Colossus" imbalance that everyone's talking about and that you'll probably see in GSL soon... its been floating around in NA and EU for A LONG TIME. koreans just got to it, took them a bit longer because they were exploring other styles of play, and unluckily for the game, most people just copy what they see in GSL.
I guess what I am trying to say is, it is because of people like YOU mister sarcasm, that the game doesn't evolve very fast, because you can't think for yourself or draw your own conclusions, you have to wait for GSL to tell you what's viable, and what's good, and maybe some reassurance from Day9 or Artosis/Idra in 'IMBALANCED' would help.
so BREAKING NEWS FOR YOU: THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE STRATEGYS THAT YOU COPY AND HOLD IN SUCH HIGH STANDARDS, ARE ALSO JUST HUMAN! They can't just abuse everything there is to abuse because there are some people, and I want to count myself in that group, who make the effort to understand the game rather than copy someone or think that since koreans are koreans and live in korea and speak koreans they can make better strategy or draw any better conclusions than I can.
SO YEAH YOU CAN EXPECT FOR A BUNCH OF THINGS TO POP OUT OF NOWHERE, AND YOU CAN MARK MY WORDS: MOTHERSHIP IS TOO DAMN STRONG IN PVZ. AND WHEN EVERYONE IS USING MOTHERSHIP, I'LL COME BACK and GENTLY spit in your face.
With Love:
CatZ
edit: wanted to leave you with something to think about mr: "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps from Longshank's table that you've missed your God given right to something better" - W.Wallace (Mel Gibson) to the Scottish Nobles (All they ever did was agree and suck up to the powerful Englishmen)
(You're a Scottish Noble Ribbon, and I am William fuckn Wallace)
I dont post on forums almsot never but i read a lot of posts and treats and this time i wanna coment a bit. Im from bulgaria and im friends with Zeerax a player who make strategies 99.9% of the people will abuse in like 1 year and let me tell you that Voidray/Colo he uses since beta and when he played terran he used anther strat almost as strong as that one and when we sit down with him to think of counters and builds its pretty fucking hard just because of what you say... so bottom line im 100% behind you man and every single one person who have a little understanding about the game will be!
With RESPECT JacK
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On February 22 2011 23:58 CatZ.root wrote:Stuff that's been quoted enough times.
Well what I'm wondering is if the Korean Zergs have figured out timings / tricks to more reliably beat Protoss if they try to go for the VR/Colossus deathball or Archon Toilet before super-late-game. I do agree with you though, that once it's gotten, both things are EXTREMELY difficult for a zerg to handle, even very hard to handle 300-food-push style.
One thing I wanna see more of though is Neural Parasite on CASTERS. Unlike NPing a combat unit, if you NP a caster and get a spell off.. the damage is done, it doesn't matter anymore if the infestor is picked off. I saw TLO do this recently ZVP where he NP'd a sentry and did some forcefielding of his own (it was pretty hilarious, actually)
Against a mothership, if the zerg pulls that NP-caster shenannigan off (and there's a lot less time to pick off the offending infestor, especially if half your shit is fungal'd... there's probably not going to be a recovery for the toss. Toss banelings (been seeing them pretty often ZVP lately already) into that vortex and you have a toilet of your own.
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On February 22 2011 15:31 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 15:22 HitStarcraft wrote:
Corrupters 150 mins 100 gas 2 supply
Colossus 300 mins 200 gas 6 supply
So about 3 corrupters should exist for each colossus. WRONG!
you need like 6 for each colossus which is rediculous amount more minerals and gas than the protoss.
BLIZZARD SO SMART!!!!!!!! It's almost as if Blizzard wanted the races to play differently, and gave one race a lot more production power at the cost of less efficient units.
Problem is trying to reach peak production capabilities has a price, for example you need drones and extra bases to try and out produce anyone as Z.
Which wouldn't be a problem if drone's didn't cost supply and if Z units weren't so supply inefficient but as it stands right now Z feels weak to P in the late game without some early or mid game advantage.
As of now it's very hard for Z players to try and balance a proper army composition and drone count to try and fight the Protoss, even harder when the Z can't win in a straight up fight but has to reproduce constantly to destroy the Protoss ball.
Corrupter's aren't as obvious an answer as you'd think, more corrupters means less of a ground army for Z. And if you have no ground army then what's really the point in having corrupters to support you lol.
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On February 23 2011 00:47 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 23:58 CatZ.root wrote:Stuff that's been quoted enough times. Well what I'm wondering is if the Korean Zergs have figured out timings / tricks to more reliably beat Protoss if they try to go for the VR/Colossus deathball or Archon Toilet before super-late-game. I do agree with you though, that once it's gotten, both things are EXTREMELY difficult for a zerg to handle, even very hard to handle 300-food-push style. One thing I wanna see more of though is Neural Parasite on CASTERS. Unlike NPing a combat unit, if you NP a caster and get a spell off.. the damage is done, it doesn't matter anymore if the infestor is picked off. I saw TLO do this recently ZVP where he NP'd a sentry and did some forcefielding of his own (it was pretty hilarious, actually) Against a mothership, if the zerg pulls that NP-caster shenannigan off (and there's a lot less time to pick off the offending infestor, especially if half your shit is fungal'd... there's probably not going to be a recovery for the toss. Toss banelings (been seeing them pretty often ZVP lately already) into that vortex and you have a toilet of your own.
ya NP is a huge investment, I have too used forcefields of my own but realistically its really hard and almost dumb to grab, for example a HT and try to storm which may or may not work, when you could just fungal or have better units instead of this. its REALLY good on paper. but really really hard in reality, cause good toss will snipe infestors asap.
I have tried to NP mothership and vortex + banelings for a 'toilet of my own' I actually did it in a showmatch vs KiWiKaKi, unluckily if you watch the replays or vods, kiwikaki never let his mothership in range of my infestors no matter how good i tried to position them. I did end up getting the mothership, but AFTER he vortexed, so without energy I couldn't do my baneling toilet and lost, and I want to emphasize on that. I commited a lot of resources to tech that I wouldnt normally get to try to make this work, got a bunch of infestors (not greatest unit vs p), got infestor energy upgrade, neural parasite upgrade, and a bunch of banelings, all this cuts into my supply and army composition greatly, and translates into, if u can't pull it off (and i promise you its nearly impossible against a protoss like kiwikaki) you lose.
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Agree with Catz on mothership. A lot of players still don't understand how strong this unit is.
I think eventually blizzard is going to remove vortex splash bug.
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Agree with Catz, he is boss.
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Catz, you are probably my favorite pro gamer now.
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Corrupter's aren't as obvious an answer as you'd think, more corrupters means less of a ground army for Z.
Depending on the toss composition, he doesn't have much of a ground army either though. The few colossus he'll have are pivotal for removing hydras.
What catz has said is almost damning to artosis and idra though, because this "composition" has indeed been around since the beta. Whether they only pay attention to builds in the GSL/Korea, or they simply don't have the time to observe the evolutions of all servers, remains to be answered; I still love them both and appreciate their open criticism of balance.
Also, I think guineapig did some variation of this style way before yonghwa in the GSL, except he massed voidrays, was extremely aggressive and mixed in a colossus or two in the final push.
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Oh my god, I got a pro-gamer to rage at me. I'm actually fanboying a little (though I have to admit, I'm holding out for Idra).
this is the reason I don't post on forums very often, too many people like mr sarcasm here.
You haven't seen every build because THIS IS STILL A NEW GAME. I could tell terrans in the beta, literally, that they should put pressure early on. I can tell zergs u can stop 6 pool easily without even having or making a pool, I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe. I can tell you Infestor into broodlord is the correct way to play vs tank marine terrans in my opinion.
Protosses aren't dumb, they do what they know and what they can handle, what they've played with. and what they copy from the GSL players. EVERY server has VERY unique different styles. you know this "Voidray Colossus" imbalance that everyone's talking about and that you'll probably see in GSL soon... its been floating around in NA and EU for A LONG TIME. koreans just got to it, took them a bit longer because they were exploring other styles of play, and unluckily for the game, most people just copy what they see in GSL.
I guess what I am trying to say is, it is because of people like YOU mister sarcasm, that the game doesn't evolve very fast, because you can't think for yourself or draw your own conclusions, you have to wait for GSL to tell you what's viable, and what's good, and maybe some reassurance from Day9 or Artosis/Idra in 'IMBALANCED' would help.
so BREAKING NEWS FOR YOU: THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE STRATEGYS THAT YOU COPY AND HOLD IN SUCH HIGH STANDARDS, ARE ALSO JUST HUMAN! They can't just abuse everything there is to abuse because there are some people, and I want to count myself in that group, who make the effort to understand the game rather than copy someone or think that since koreans are koreans and live in korea and speak koreans they can make better strategy or draw any better conclusions than I can.
SO YEAH YOU CAN EXPECT FOR A BUNCH OF THINGS TO POP OUT OF NOWHERE, AND YOU CAN MARK MY WORDS: MOTHERSHIP IS TOO DAMN STRONG IN PVZ. AND WHEN EVERYONE IS USING MOTHERSHIP, I'LL COME BACK and GENTLY spit in your face.
With Love:
CatZ
edit: wanted to leave you with something to think about mr: "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps from Longshank's table that you've missed your God given right to something better" - W.Wallace (Mel Gibson) to the Scottish Nobles (All they ever did was agree and suck up to the powerful Englishmen)
(You're a Scottish Noble Ribbon, and I am William fuckn Wallace)
But I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed. I'd expect a pro-gamer (assuming he didn't just ignore me; which is also valid) to explain why I'm wrong. In an angry or sarcastic way? Sure, I guess. I can dig the condescension, 'specially when it's funny. While insulting me? Sure. It's the internet, yo, and I did start it by being a little flippant.
But the conversation went like this:
Catz: Mothership is OP against Zerg.
Ribbon: Then why don't protoss use it*?
Catz: Because you're a fag/Scottish Noble.
That makes me sad, Catz. First off, the analogy you describe doesn't make sense. If the Scottish Nobles were bad because they mindlessly obeyed established authority figures, and you're mad at me because I'm being a dick to established authority figures such as yourself (admittedly a fair point), I don't really get your comparison. So please stop building yourself up as some kind of anti-authority freedom fighter when the whole thread is full of people who agree with you because you have the word "root" in your username.
You have declared that Mothership is OP. Your arguments to back up this statement have been
1. The game hasn't been figured out yet, so Protoss doesn't know how powerful it is
2. FREEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOMMMMMM.
To which I reply
1. Doesn't this imply that Zerg possibly haven't figured out how OP such-and-such a build of their own is?
2. Okay.
Now, I will admit. You're a progamer. You spend a lot more time thinking about the game than I do. While I think the "You're in platinum, therefore you don't know hotkeys" elitism is rather overblown, you absolutely have more ingrained knowledge of the game and it's mechanics/timings than I do. The fact that you, a pro-gamer, believe something carries a little weight.
It is not inherently conclusive evidence. Even if a majority of pro-gamers believed something, it wouldn't necessarily make it true, though the evidence needed to overturn such a belief would be high.
A lot of people on this site fall into argument from authority. But an argument doesn't depend on who said it. No one would take your post seriously if you used a smurf account. It's not a serious post.
When day[9] makes a statement of "X is good", he generally gives a lot of evidence for it. Usually he devotes an entire daily to examining why X is good. Because he provides convincing evidence, I tend to believe him. You yourself submitted some great games to his mass queen Funday Monday, showing a lot of the strengths of that build (albeit not the weaknesses).
When someone like Idra (or yourself in this case, but I don't follow you enough to know if this is normal for you) says "X is good", he gives a bunch of theorycraft and the fact that he's Idra. That's why there's 40 pages of fighting in this thread. He didn't really convince people. He issued a statement from on high.
There's been some good debates in this thread. I was earlier going with the conventional wisdom of the counter to turtling being to take the whole map. Someone explained to me, using logic, why that was wrong in this case, and I admitted it. I can admit when I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong about Protoss lategame being solvable. It's certainly possible. And I'll believe I'm wrong when one of the following things happen:
1. Someone with a lot of knowledge (regardless of rank) goes through a real game Day[9] style and explains why a lot of the zerg complaints hold true against actual Protoss players, and not just hypothetical ones where Protoss has infinite resources and foresight.
2. Motherships get used against Zerg a lot, and Zerg have a hard time against it at a high level for a decent amount of time.
I don't expect you, or anyone, do put in the work of doing the former. I'd like it, but we all have school, or jobs, or porn as better potential uses of our valuable time than spending a huge amount of mental energy fighting with an asshat like me on the internet. So I guess we have to wait for a mothership era to emerge. Fair enough. You're free to virtually and gently spit in my face if I'm wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +Also, the English killed William Wallace.
*Specifically, I asked if toss were stupid. I'm a little amused that your response can be tl;dr-ed to "yes".
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On February 23 2011 03:42 Ribbon wrote:Oh my god, I got a pro-gamer to rage at me. I'm actually fanboying a little (though I have to admit, I'm holding out for Idra). Show nested quote +this is the reason I don't post on forums very often, too many people like mr sarcasm here.
You haven't seen every build because THIS IS STILL A NEW GAME. I could tell terrans in the beta, literally, that they should put pressure early on. I can tell zergs u can stop 6 pool easily without even having or making a pool, I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe. I can tell you Infestor into broodlord is the correct way to play vs tank marine terrans in my opinion.
Protosses aren't dumb, they do what they know and what they can handle, what they've played with. and what they copy from the GSL players. EVERY server has VERY unique different styles. you know this "Voidray Colossus" imbalance that everyone's talking about and that you'll probably see in GSL soon... its been floating around in NA and EU for A LONG TIME. koreans just got to it, took them a bit longer because they were exploring other styles of play, and unluckily for the game, most people just copy what they see in GSL.
I guess what I am trying to say is, it is because of people like YOU mister sarcasm, that the game doesn't evolve very fast, because you can't think for yourself or draw your own conclusions, you have to wait for GSL to tell you what's viable, and what's good, and maybe some reassurance from Day9 or Artosis/Idra in 'IMBALANCED' would help.
so BREAKING NEWS FOR YOU: THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE STRATEGYS THAT YOU COPY AND HOLD IN SUCH HIGH STANDARDS, ARE ALSO JUST HUMAN! They can't just abuse everything there is to abuse because there are some people, and I want to count myself in that group, who make the effort to understand the game rather than copy someone or think that since koreans are koreans and live in korea and speak koreans they can make better strategy or draw any better conclusions than I can.
SO YEAH YOU CAN EXPECT FOR A BUNCH OF THINGS TO POP OUT OF NOWHERE, AND YOU CAN MARK MY WORDS: MOTHERSHIP IS TOO DAMN STRONG IN PVZ. AND WHEN EVERYONE IS USING MOTHERSHIP, I'LL COME BACK and GENTLY spit in your face.
With Love:
CatZ
edit: wanted to leave you with something to think about mr: "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps from Longshank's table that you've missed your God given right to something better" - W.Wallace (Mel Gibson) to the Scottish Nobles (All they ever did was agree and suck up to the powerful Englishmen)
(You're a Scottish Noble Ribbon, and I am William fuckn Wallace)
But I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed. I'd expect a pro-gamer (assuming he didn't just ignore me; which is also valid) to explain why I'm wrong. In an angry or sarcastic way? Sure, I guess. I can dig the condescension, 'specially when it's funny. While insulting me? Sure. It's the internet, yo, and I did start it by being a little flippant.
But the conversation went like this:
Catz: Mothership is OP against Zerg.
Ribbon: Then why don't protoss use it*?
Catz: Because you're a fag/Scottish Noble.
That makes me sad, Catz. First off, the analogy you describe doesn't make sense. If the Scottish Nobles were bad because they mindlessly obeyed established authority figures, and you're mad at me because I'm being a dick to established authority figures such as yourself (admittedly a fair point), I don't really get your comparison. So please stop building yourself up as some kind of anti-authority freedom fighter when the whole thread is full of people who agree with you because you have the word "root" in your username.
You have declared that Mothership is OP. Your arguments to back up this statement have been
1. The game hasn't been figured out yet, so Protoss doesn't know how powerful it is
2. FREEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOMMMMMM.
To which I reply
1. Doesn't this imply that Zerg possibly haven't figured out how OP such-and-such a build of their own is?
2. Okay. Now, I will admit. You're a progamer. You spend a lot more time thinking about the game than I do. While I think the "You're in platinum, therefore you don't know hotkeys" elitism is rather overblown, you absolutely have more ingrained knowledge of the game and it's mechanics/timings than I do. The fact that you, a pro-gamer, believe something carries a little weight. It is not inherently conclusive evidence. Even if a majority of pro-gamers believed something, it wouldn't necessarily make it true, though the evidence needed to overturn such a belief would be high. A lot of people on this site fall into argument from authority. But an argument doesn't depend on who said it. No one would take your post seriously if you used a smurf account. It's not a serious post. When day[9] makes a statement of "X is good", he generally gives a lot of evidence for it. Usually he devotes an entire daily to examining why X is good. Because he provides convincing evidence, I tend to believe him. You yourself submitted some great games to his mass queen Funday Monday, showing a lot of the strengths of that build (albeit not the weaknesses). When someone like Idra (or yourself in this case, but I don't follow you enough to know if this is normal for you) says "X is good", he gives a bunch of theorycraft and the fact that he's Idra. That's why there's 40 pages of fighting in this thread. He didn't really convince people. He issued a statement from on high. There's been some good debates in this thread. I was earlier going with the conventional wisdom of the counter to turtling being to take the whole map. Someone explained to me, using logic, why that was wrong in this case, and I admitted it. I can admit when I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong about Protoss lategame being solvable. It's certainly possible. And I'll believe I'm wrong when one of the following things happen: 1. Someone with a lot of knowledge (regardless of rank) goes through a real game Day[9] style and explains why a lot of the zerg complaints hold true against actual Protoss players, and not just hypothetical ones where Protoss has infinite resources and foresight. 2. Motherships get used against Zerg a lot, and Zerg have a hard time against it at a high level for a decent amount of time. I don't expect you, or anyone, do put in the work of doing the former. I'd like it, but we all have school, or jobs, or porn as better potential uses of our valuable time than spending a huge amount of mental energy fighting with an asshat like me on the internet. So I guess we have to wait for a mothership era to emerge. Fair enough. You're free to virtually and gently spit in my face if I'm wrong. + Show Spoiler +Also, the English killed William Wallace. *Specifically, I asked if toss were stupid. I'm a little amused that your response can be tl;dr-ed to "yes".
Lolmao, that was nice.
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On February 23 2011 00:58 CatZ.root wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 00:47 sylverfyre wrote:On February 22 2011 23:58 CatZ.root wrote:Stuff that's been quoted enough times. Well what I'm wondering is if the Korean Zergs have figured out timings / tricks to more reliably beat Protoss if they try to go for the VR/Colossus deathball or Archon Toilet before super-late-game. I do agree with you though, that once it's gotten, both things are EXTREMELY difficult for a zerg to handle, even very hard to handle 300-food-push style. One thing I wanna see more of though is Neural Parasite on CASTERS. Unlike NPing a combat unit, if you NP a caster and get a spell off.. the damage is done, it doesn't matter anymore if the infestor is picked off. I saw TLO do this recently ZVP where he NP'd a sentry and did some forcefielding of his own (it was pretty hilarious, actually) Against a mothership, if the zerg pulls that NP-caster shenannigan off (and there's a lot less time to pick off the offending infestor, especially if half your shit is fungal'd... there's probably not going to be a recovery for the toss. Toss banelings (been seeing them pretty often ZVP lately already) into that vortex and you have a toilet of your own. ya NP is a huge investment, I have too used forcefields of my own but realistically its really hard and almost dumb to grab, for example a HT and try to storm which may or may not work, when you could just fungal or have better units instead of this. its REALLY good on paper. but really really hard in reality, cause good toss will snipe infestors asap. I have tried to NP mothership and vortex + banelings for a 'toilet of my own' I actually did it in a showmatch vs KiWiKaKi, unluckily if you watch the replays or vods, kiwikaki never let his mothership in range of my infestors no matter how good i tried to position them. I did end up getting the mothership, but AFTER he vortexed, so without energy I couldn't do my baneling toilet and lost, and I want to emphasize on that. I commited a lot of resources to tech that I wouldnt normally get to try to make this work, got a bunch of infestors (not greatest unit vs p), got infestor energy upgrade, neural parasite upgrade, and a bunch of banelings, all this cuts into my supply and army composition greatly, and translates into, if u can't pull it off (and i promise you its nearly impossible against a protoss like kiwikaki) you lose.
In the interests of being fair: This post, while anecdotal, provides good evidence and facts to support it's conclusion.
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You know if the most creative player in starcraft 2 thinks there aren't enough ways to combat a particular strategy, then maybe something should be done about it.
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Actually in Europe most Zergs have figured out how to beat this, so it is imo not imbalanced. VR and Colossus are a HUGE investment, it is like getting Mass Ultralisks and Infestors at the same time. So a really only Lategame Army. If you can get there it is fine, but
- on big maps Zerg can easily get T3 in time and some good units. The rest is pure Colossus Imbalance, why it is so hard to beat.
- on smaller maps (like LT, Metal ...) there you have no time to get Voidrays and Colossus. You die nearly to every drop or multi-pronged attack.
I tried it multiple times, but it just doesn't work on 3000 points Masterleague. You cant just go to Voidray and Colossus instant. The only way to get there are mutliple army trades with your normal deathball.
€: Often it works on pro level. I just cannot figure out how. A week ago i saw Insolence do this. He died to a simple Roachdrop from Darkforce.
I think most Pro-Zergs were just way too passive.
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I think early 2 stargate voids really make it tough for zerg to be aggressive or scout well. But I think scouting is key for toss, and easily done. A roach drop, I don't see how that can be terribly effective if toss is scoutting. Most maps seem small enough that a 2base toss can crush any zerg if they reach supply cap. You can all the other resource nodes on the map as zerg, engage right outisde his base, be perfectly upgraded, have a good composition. And get roflstomped, remax to get roflstomped again. Like Idra said the inferior army needs some way to counter, or inflict some sort of significant damage.
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On February 23 2011 03:42 Ribbon wrote:Oh my god, I got a pro-gamer to rage at me. I'm actually fanboying a little (though I have to admit, I'm holding out for Idra). Show nested quote +this is the reason I don't post on forums very often, too many people like mr sarcasm here.
You haven't seen every build because THIS IS STILL A NEW GAME. I could tell terrans in the beta, literally, that they should put pressure early on. I can tell zergs u can stop 6 pool easily without even having or making a pool, I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe. I can tell you Infestor into broodlord is the correct way to play vs tank marine terrans in my opinion.
Protosses aren't dumb, they do what they know and what they can handle, what they've played with. and what they copy from the GSL players. EVERY server has VERY unique different styles. you know this "Voidray Colossus" imbalance that everyone's talking about and that you'll probably see in GSL soon... its been floating around in NA and EU for A LONG TIME. koreans just got to it, took them a bit longer because they were exploring other styles of play, and unluckily for the game, most people just copy what they see in GSL.
I guess what I am trying to say is, it is because of people like YOU mister sarcasm, that the game doesn't evolve very fast, because you can't think for yourself or draw your own conclusions, you have to wait for GSL to tell you what's viable, and what's good, and maybe some reassurance from Day9 or Artosis/Idra in 'IMBALANCED' would help.
so BREAKING NEWS FOR YOU: THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE STRATEGYS THAT YOU COPY AND HOLD IN SUCH HIGH STANDARDS, ARE ALSO JUST HUMAN! They can't just abuse everything there is to abuse because there are some people, and I want to count myself in that group, who make the effort to understand the game rather than copy someone or think that since koreans are koreans and live in korea and speak koreans they can make better strategy or draw any better conclusions than I can.
SO YEAH YOU CAN EXPECT FOR A BUNCH OF THINGS TO POP OUT OF NOWHERE, AND YOU CAN MARK MY WORDS: MOTHERSHIP IS TOO DAMN STRONG IN PVZ. AND WHEN EVERYONE IS USING MOTHERSHIP, I'LL COME BACK and GENTLY spit in your face.
With Love:
CatZ
edit: wanted to leave you with something to think about mr: "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps from Longshank's table that you've missed your God given right to something better" - W.Wallace (Mel Gibson) to the Scottish Nobles (All they ever did was agree and suck up to the powerful Englishmen)
(You're a Scottish Noble Ribbon, and I am William fuckn Wallace)
But I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed. I'd expect a pro-gamer (assuming he didn't just ignore me; which is also valid) to explain why I'm wrong. In an angry or sarcastic way? Sure, I guess. I can dig the condescension, 'specially when it's funny. While insulting me? Sure. It's the internet, yo, and I did start it by being a little flippant. But the conversation went like this: Catz: Mothership is OP against Zerg. Ribbon: Then why don't protoss use it*? Catz: Because you're a fag/Scottish Noble. That makes me sad, Catz. First off, the analogy you describe doesn't make sense. If the Scottish Nobles were bad because they mindlessly obeyed established authority figures, and you're mad at me because I'm being a dick to established authority figures such as yourself (admittedly a fair point), I don't really get your comparison. So please stop building yourself up as some kind of anti-authority freedom fighter when the whole thread is full of people who agree with you because you have the word "root" in your username. You have declared that Mothership is OP. Your arguments to back up this statement have been 1. The game hasn't been figured out yet, so Protoss doesn't know how powerful it is 2. FREEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOMMMMMM. To which I reply 1. Doesn't this imply that Zerg possibly haven't figured out how OP such-and-such a build of their own is? 2. Okay. Now, I will admit. You're a progamer. You spend a lot more time thinking about the game than I do. While I think the "You're in platinum, therefore you don't know hotkeys" elitism is rather overblown, you absolutely have more ingrained knowledge of the game and it's mechanics/timings than I do. The fact that you, a pro-gamer, believe something carries a little weight. It is not inherently conclusive evidence. Even if a majority of pro-gamers believed something, it wouldn't necessarily make it true, though the evidence needed to overturn such a belief would be high. A lot of people on this site fall into argument from authority. But an argument doesn't depend on who said it. No one would take your post seriously if you used a smurf account. It's not a serious post. When day[9] makes a statement of "X is good", he generally gives a lot of evidence for it. Usually he devotes an entire daily to examining why X is good. Because he provides convincing evidence, I tend to believe him. You yourself submitted some great games to his mass queen Funday Monday, showing a lot of the strengths of that build (albeit not the weaknesses). When someone like Idra (or yourself in this case, but I don't follow you enough to know if this is normal for you) says "X is good", he gives a bunch of theorycraft and the fact that he's Idra. That's why there's 40 pages of fighting in this thread. He didn't really convince people. He issued a statement from on high. There's been some good debates in this thread. I was earlier going with the conventional wisdom of the counter to turtling being to take the whole map. Someone explained to me, using logic, why that was wrong in this case, and I admitted it. I can admit when I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong about Protoss lategame being solvable. It's certainly possible. And I'll believe I'm wrong when one of the following things happen: 1. Someone with a lot of knowledge (regardless of rank) goes through a real game Day[9] style and explains why a lot of the zerg complaints hold true against actual Protoss players, and not just hypothetical ones where Protoss has infinite resources and foresight. 2. Motherships get used against Zerg a lot, and Zerg have a hard time against it at a high level for a decent amount of time. I don't expect you, or anyone, do put in the work of doing the former. I'd like it, but we all have school, or jobs, or porn as better potential uses of our valuable time than spending a huge amount of mental energy fighting with an asshat like me on the internet. So I guess we have to wait for a mothership era to emerge. Fair enough. You're free to virtually and gently spit in my face if I'm wrong. + Show Spoiler +Also, the English killed William Wallace. *Specifically, I asked if toss were stupid. I'm a little amused that your response can be tl;dr-ed to "yes".
Yes CatZ was harsh on you, but thats just his (awesome) humor. But dood, you are wrong. He didn't just say STFU. And you didn't just ask why? You said... why don't we see the GSL guys doing it... He said "why the fuck do you have to wait for a GSL guy to do it before you think its strong?"
His entire rant was about how bad it is to equate GSL builds to optimal builds (and in doing so, you ignore what builds you see for yourself are strong). Don't you get that? That's his major point
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If colos + voidray is OP .. Then what about banshees + marauders vs. Toss? Isn't it kinda of the same?
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EPT
