EPTWould make the stalker/immortal/ht composition a lot more viable against zerg and it's more fun to play...
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 47
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Predateur
Canada79 Posts
Would make the stalker/immortal/ht composition a lot more viable against zerg and it's more fun to play... | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On February 22 2011 01:25 ckukner wrote: Well at least there was mechanical and multitasking skill requirement to play strats that seemed "IMBA". I can't really see any skill required to sit on a 2 base and build a death ball from 3 production building than 1a'ing to win a game. Void rays should be 4 supply to balance out this strat. Doesn't effect their early game but stops them being quite powerfull in the late game. I don't know any of the skill requirements of previous BW "imba" techniques, but the thing about this "skill-less" technique of 2 base collosus void ray focus, is that is allows you as zerg to flex your skill on the opponent. If any player is sitting in his 2 bases all turtled up trying for a death army, you can macro harder than he is. Hell, that is a vast component of the entire concept of zerg play. If you don't think you can flex your macro against an opponent that is limiting himself, get out of the swarm. As for the top level play that Idra and artosis are discussing: We haven't seen any protoss pros switch to it consistently yet, there is probably a reason for that. As opposed for example to the mass reaper opening when it was popular. It dominated the tournament scene and of course it did, it was crazy powerful. However this strategy that they are discussing is counter-able in a number of ways and if its not then we'll seen it turn out such on the pro scene. I'd bet money that it won't because I'm sure pro zerg players are ready for it.There needed to be a change in the status quo, the previous map pool was really lame for zerg. The current map pool is different and skilled players will show us new options in play that weren't available before. Ladder balance is possibly a bit off, but the funny thing is according to blizzard stats from Europe, zerg beat protoss by a solid percentage. New maps mean a new meta-game, personally I would see that meta-game evolve before I accept crying about imbalance as anything other than crying. | ||
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tmzu
58 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:06 SolidZeal wrote: I don't know any of the skill requirements of previous BW "imba" techniques, but the thing about this "skill-less" technique of 2 base collosus void ray focus, is that is allows you as zerg to flex your skill on the opponent. If any player is sitting in his 2 bases all turtled up trying for a death army, you can macro harder than he is. Hell, that is a vast component of the entire concept of zerg play. If you don't think you can flex your macro against an opponent that is limiting himself, get out of the swarm. As for the top level play that Idra and artosis are discussing: We haven't seen any protoss pros switch to it consistently yet, there is probably a reason for that. As opposed for example to the mass reaper opening when it was popular. It dominated the tournament scene and of course it did, it was crazy powerful. However this strategy that they are discussing is counter-able in a number of ways and if its not then we'll seen it turn out such on the pro scene. I'd bet money that it won't because I'm sure pro zerg players are ready for it.There needed to be a change in the status quo, the previous map pool was really lame for zerg. The current map pool is different and skilled players will show us new options in play that weren't available before. Ladder balance is possibly a bit off, but the funny thing is according to blizzard stats from Europe, zerg beat protoss by a solid percentage. New maps mean a new meta-game, personally I would see that meta-game evolve before I accept crying about imbalance as anything other than crying. So what your saying is the zerg basically has to be amazing at macro to win against a strat that takes essentially no micro or skill. And even then, the chance of winning as incrediably low. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On February 22 2011 04:13 tmzu wrote: So what your saying is the zerg basically has to be amazing at macro to win against a strat that takes essentially no micro or skill. And even then, the chance of winning as incrediably low. The "counter" to any turtle play is to expand and harass. I don't see how this is any different. This thread should be closed. There's no point to it. Any of the comments about how to deal with the build or why it isn't nearly as powerful as zergs are claiming have been ignored by the majority of posters. | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
On February 20 2011 04:19 CatZ.root wrote: LOL people saying I beat a deathball with muta, while relying on HIDING A SPIRE FOR 20 MINUTES and showing fake hydralisks / mass queen to try and defend meanwhile... this is not what we should have to do, sorry. edit: there isn't 1 thing wrong with pvz and possible compositions, there are MANY. luckily, or unluckily actually... most protoss aren't really using everything they can to their advantage, but this is only delaying the inevitable. Why do you need to hide your spire? Spire is pretty standard play for corruptors, make a few corruptors and mass mutas after? or shit use your creep and hide your spire if thats what your into ^^ | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
So what your saying is the zerg basically has to be amazing at macro to win against a strat that takes essentially no micro or skill. And even then, the chance of winning as incrediably low. Cannon rushing takes no micro or skill and puts the burden on the opponent to respond properly, its pretty much opinion. Regardless, when it comes to professionals the difficulty of execution is a non-issue. It's only popular on the ladder, and we have yet to see the proper response from a seasoned professional zerg. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
Step 1) normal roach hydra look with the spire and a couple corruptors so the toss can't 'know' you'll tech swap. Step 2) make sure you have detection at your bases so an observer can't watch what you build. Step 3) bait with the couple of corruptors and they roach hydra army by getting in that 200/200 (or around there) engagment Step 4) Start pilling up mutas by your bases as your army wipes Step 5) hello zealot/void/colossus meet mr. mutalisk Step 6) profit? just theory crafting would have to test more, I haven't faced anyone (yet) who can execute the strat cleanly with good macro. All the games I've used it I was mechanically out playing my opponent. | ||
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stk01001
United States786 Posts
On February 22 2011 04:38 Nerski wrote: I'm still of the mindset that a muta tech switch could be the answer...assuming you hold your bases well while they 2 base to the death ball, and pick up an expansion or two. Step 1) normal roach hydra look with the spire and a couple corruptors so the toss can't 'know' you'll tech swap. Step 2) make sure you have detection at your bases so an observer can't watch what you build. Step 3) bait with the couple of corruptors and they roach hydra army by getting in that 200/200 (or around there) engagment Step 4) Start pilling up mutas by your bases as your army wipes Step 5) hello zealot/void/colossus meet mr. mutalisk Step 6) profit? just theory crafting would have to test more, I haven't faced anyone (yet) who can execute the strat cleanly with good macro. All the games I've used it I was mechanically out playing my opponent. from what I've seen it seems like using mutalisks in at least some capacity (either pure muta or mixing a few corruptors) is the best answer anyone has come up with so far.. I haven't really gotten a chance to test it out although I played a bunch of customs as protoss going void/colossus and the only time I lost with the build is when the zerg built a ton of mutas.. (my P is pretty terrible, although 1a with a void ray/colossus ball isn't exactly hard, getting the ball up is the hard part i guess) I heard a rumor that blizz might be increasing the damage of fungal on armored units in which case mixing in infestors may end up being the answer.. I think that would be a great change.. personally i think they should increase corruptor damage vs massive... that way it would help out zerg vs colossus without really having much of an effect on the other matchups (since there aren't many other massive units that are going to be fighting corruptors) or an even better change would be to make the spell corruption much more effective.. that way a skilled player with good micro would be able to corrupt all the colossus/void rays and hold it off easier whereas a less skilled player could still lose to it (this way it doesn't swing the matchup in favor of z too much) although I did hear blizz was considering switching corruptor from +6 vs massive to +4 vs armored which makes no sense IMO.. making corruptors weaker vs colossus? I hope it's not true... | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
I havent really tried it yet I want to see how it works. I'm sure there are timing windows for zerg. is it 3gate expand into void/colossus? | ||
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tmzu
58 Posts
I think the problem is the fact that, VRs and collosus counter each others respective "counters" so hard while the zerg counters to both units are shit to begin with. | ||
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stk01001
United States786 Posts
On February 22 2011 05:27 Mykill wrote: where can i find this build? I havent really tried it yet I want to see how it works. I'm sure there are timing windows for zerg. is it 3gate expand into void/colossus? if your going straight void/colossus then you don't want to do 3 gate expand... I believe the proper build is a 1 gate into quick stargate into expand... use quick voidrays to hold off early roach/ling pressure and then throw down a second stargate to pump void rays and start teching up to colossus off two bases.. mass ling can be a headache though because void rays kill lings so slowly.. you can overcome this though with a proper sim city at expo and cannons.. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Anyway while voidray colossi tosses feel like a free win for me at my level (diamond again thanks to playing zerg again), at pro level it looks far more scary. But still mutas > this composition and it forces a switch away from the voidrays so you can go for corrupters against a phoenix switch (which is good for you thanks to the damage boni skill), switching to ht immortal gives you enough time to expand like crazy. If i were a toss i would go for immortal templar right from the start ... because the conter to it isn't able to kill your eco within seconds, while you move out. (and be back in time to defend) PS: the toss reacted a bit slow to the mutas switching to phoenix a bit after he scouted this huge muta cloud and was on 1 stargate double robo, didn't got more gateways stargates. But added more stalkers. But no canons at the eco etc. so the mutas could fly freely around with getting lots for probe kills. So its not like voidray colossi doesn't work against a zerg, but its hard t execute from only 2 bases. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On February 21 2011 14:29 WniO wrote: Even when brood war was released 99.9% of the people playing didnt really know what the hell they were doing. it took a few years for standard play to kick in, and people realized how to play starcraft like you should. basic rts fundamentals that we know now people didnt back then so its hard to argue this. Thing is, BW meta-game is still evolving, and there hasn't been a patch to that game in years. I think a fine balance needs to be drawn between "we know more about RTS games than ever before" and "we can know what's balanced and not balanced from one week of ladder play." If a game ever reached the point where it can be figured out in a week of ladder play, I'd say that game has failed as a competitive eSport. What would be the point of watching top players compete if they're going to be stuck in the mindset that they've figured everything out already and that the only competition left is who flips a coin better or makes less micro mistakes? That players are better at RTS games today does not imply that Blizzard should make a balance change every time a flavor of the month strategy takes off among top players. I'd give VR/Colossi at least a few more months of brewing on ladder, MLG, GSL, etc. before making a verdict on it. It maybe that IdrA and Artosis are right and that the strategy really cannot be effectively countered. Or it maybe that they're wrong and it can be. Either way, it's better than making a knee-jerk change and replacing one imbalance with another. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
nearly every unit is in a vacuum bad, but if they are combined and massed, and walking in a tight ball, they become 10x more powerful. Watch at the void ray, 3-5 are bad, 10+ are hilarously strong and a flying assault team that evaporates everything within seconds. the same goes with the colossus, 1-2 are not really deadly, 4-6 fry everything on the ground. Protoss cant take fights over the map, because isolated, their units are shit. Gateway units are shit, only through force fields they become useful. If you add this design together, and mass all those units into 1 slow ball, it becomes nearly invincible. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Which is what I did when he tried to take a 4th and that won me the game. So definitely not has bad as I thought it would be, yeah he made mistakes but so did I. I guess it will be interested to see how often this is used in GSL. I also had 2-1 mutas and was working on 2-2 but the game ended early, I think a double spire would have been worth it for the sake of upgrading faster. | ||
Creem
Sweden254 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:06 SolidZeal wrote: I don't know any of the skill requirements of previous BW "imba" techniques, but the thing about this "skill-less" technique of 2 base collosus void ray focus, is that is allows you as zerg to flex your skill on the opponent. If any player is sitting in his 2 bases all turtled up trying for a death army, you can macro harder than he is. Hell, that is a vast component of the entire concept of zerg play. If you don't think you can flex your macro against an opponent that is limiting himself, get out of the swarm. You're missing the point, it doesn't matter if zerg sits on 25 or 3 bases. All toss needs to do is get the deathball running and the zerg army will get demolished. With a slight loss for toss and an entire wipeout of the zerg's army the zerg is now forced to reinforce. Np they got larva stored up and a boatload of resources. But here comes the problem you seem to be completely unaware of. You can't start creaing new units until you drop below 200/200, and at that point all toss needs to do (after demolishing the entire zerg army in seconds due to upgraded colossus and mass ff) is simply position himself to cut off reinforcements. Now you'll have zerg rallying 3 roaches from the north, 5 hydras from the south and 5 corruptors from the east making it pisseasy for toss to kill them off with zero losses. This is the issue. Once the initial battle is lost zerg can never build up an army in one spot strong enough to threaten the ball of death. | ||
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drsnuggles
Korea (South)362 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On February 22 2011 04:21 Offhand wrote: The "counter" to any turtle play is to expand and harass. I don't see how this is any different. This thread should be closed. There's no point to it. Any of the comments about how to deal with the build or why it isn't nearly as powerful as zergs are claiming have been ignored by the majority of posters. ignorance you say? Funny, this is the first world that popped to my mind reading your comment. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
You're missing the point, it doesn't matter if zerg sits on 25 or 3 bases. All toss needs to do is get the deathball running and the zerg army will get demolished. This is after both players agreed to a 20 minute no rush rule right? | ||
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Creem
Sweden254 Posts
On February 22 2011 08:08 Tyrant0 wrote: This is after both players agreed to a 20 minute no rush rule right? Are you implying that no zvp goes beyond the 15 minute mark? I fail to see your point. | ||
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