Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban.
On February 19 2011 10:36 Azarkon wrote: Despite all the theory crafting, I have yet to see a game beyond the GTSL game in which this was actually pulled off successfully by the Protoss player, with Zerg not being able to do anything despite playing well and making the appropriate counters. In fact, the only game where I've seen a pro player lose to this build was Dimaga vs. White-Ra when Dimaga made too many corrupters and had like 20 of them leftover, after which White-Ra just ran him over with stalkers.
Either EU/US Protoss players don't understand the build, or EU/US Zerg players have found ways to counter it. From watching tournaments it seems that the standard stalker sentry colossi composition and the fast blink stalker strategy are more effective than this build, and produce games that look far more one-sided.
There's a third option. You don't watch enough EU/US pro games?
Well, let's see, I've watched, in the last few weeks:
Assembly 2011 Root Invitational FXOpen Invitational GCPL Both TL Opens Some BDL
So no, I don't think I'm behind on EU/US pro games. The only tournaments I don't regularly watch are the smaller ones like Craft Cups and the ESL Cups.
My point was more that there are more unknowns than we realise. Cannot state things from an observer point of view when we really don't know everything at work. We can supply theories just not absolutes.
Agreed. I never ruled out the possibility that VR/Colossi is overpowered, just saying that there hasn't been much proof in tournaments I've seen, and that this video lacked the details necessary to be convincing.
I like how everyone seems to think that on two bases, protoss has the gas to pump void rays and colossi quickly. You can get support one stargate, one robo, and some upgrades. If you get a second stargate or a second robo, you can forget about upgrades. It takes a long long time to create a max ball of void rays and colossi on two bases.
This build, especially when its such a quick forge fast expand has huge vulnerabilities to fast roach/hydra pressure off 2 base: If you dont have the collossi out in time hydras steam roll this type of tech before it gets off the ground- this composition has been around since the beta, it's well known and has always been known that going voidrays/collossus at the same time leaves you super vulnerable to a fast hydra push.
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Do you have any replay ?
A fast hydra push is super all-in, you can not retreat, and you have to kill your oponent before the colossus comes out.
I've seen this hydra push fails so many time and never succeed. To early there is not enough hydra to break through the cannons, to late the colossus melt everything. If there is a timing window, it is extremely narrow, so I'd really like a replay to see what is this timing window.
I wish hydra didn't require lair.... It could fix zerg early game with little risk to be overpowered since hydra are not nearly as good as marines.
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So many players talk about a colossus nerf, they have clearly missed the part where Idra and Artosis said that the best solution is not another nerf but a buff to give zerg a way to deal with the colossus + void rays.
You don't have to be impartial and absolutely fair, after all it's YOUR SHOW, but there's a certain degree of bias which has been reached in this show and which flirts with disinfirmation...
At one moment Idra pretty much implied that there was no way to beat this strategy. Specifically, he said that the only way to win was to catch the protoss offguard as the 200/200 army of Protoss is unbeatable (another bold statement that both of you semt to have no problem agreeing on) but that no good Protoss players would allow this to happen and Artosis responsed to that by saying "true true".
Mass muta and infestors are the natural counter to this strat, and it is the reason why this strat isn't over-used.
This build, especially when its such a quick forge fast expand has huge vulnerabilities to fast roach/hydra pressure off 2 base: If you dont have the collossi out in time hydras steam roll this type of tech before it gets off the ground- this composition has been around since the beta, it's well known and has always been known that going voidrays/collossus at the same time leaves you super vulnerable to a fast hydra push.
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Do you have any replay ?
A fast hydra push is super all-in, you can not retreat, and you have to kill your oponent before the colossus comes out.
I've seen this hydra push fails so many time and never succeed. To early there is not enough hydra to break through the cannons, to late the colossus melt everything. If there is a timing window, it is extremely narrow, so I'd really like a replay to see what is this timing window.
I wish hydra didn't require lair.... It could fix zerg early game with little risk to be overpowered since hydra are not nearly as good as marines.
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You dont have to win with the hydra timing, just do enough damage while transitioning out of it. "Enough" is relative, but denying the expansion will suffice. The same thing goes for mutas or roaches.
On February 20 2011 04:19 CatZ.root wrote: LOL people saying I beat a deathball with muta, while relying on HIDING A SPIRE FOR 20 MINUTES and showing fake hydralisks / mass queen to try and defend meanwhile... this is not what we should have to do, sorry.
edit: there isn't 1 thing wrong with pvz and possible compositions, there are MANY. luckily, or unluckily actually... most protoss aren't really using everything they can to their advantage, but this is only delaying the inevitable.
Do you have a suggestion on how to handle this discussed P build that is not reliant on bad scouting on the P part? A post from someone of your caliber should end this discussion pretty quickly.
A fast hydra push is super all-in, you can not retreat, and you have to kill your oponent before the colossus comes out.
Very few professional level replays of this mix being executed by protoss; Even then, I'm not pro nor are my opponents.
That being said, you have a wide open window as his robo bay/first collossus are in construction. Depending on his stargate count he'll have 3-6 voidrays and gateway units. Theres no way he can chase you down, and it's definitely not all-in when you have all of the freedom in the world to drone/expand/tech while he builds up.
Lalush was just stomped by oGsHero's void ray colossus army. That was AFTER Hero lost 6 colossi by attacking lost temple destructable rocks and not the hydras. Lalush built pure corruptors, had 2 corruptor attack upgrades and a much superior economy but still got roflstomped.
I cant for the life of me figure this out and im getting to the point of desperation, feels like nothing i throw at this can even dent it despite upgrades and supply advantage. Everything i do ends up with a protoss deathball waltzing into my base after winning a 200/200 battle with 150+ supply leftover.
On February 20 2011 15:55 usethis2 wrote: GSL has changed that specific map (Crevasse?) to have only one geyser in the in-base natural due to Protoss overpowering, I hear.
I'm still not sure how I feel about that. I suppose it's useful for SCIENCE, but I think it's weird to make maps to kill popular strategies that have just popped up. I suppose if it's only one map.
On February 20 2011 12:46 Azarkon wrote: Void Ray: (good against) Corrupter
Colossus: (good against) Hydralisk
Both according to the manual and therefore Blizzard design.
So not sure if Blizzard would buy this argument.
Hydra good against void ray. Corruptors good against colossus.
lol
The game is just more complicated than that.
Corrupters ARE good against Colossus if they are attacking them, but in A-move scenarios, which is the scenario Lalush was in, they attack Void Rays instead of Colossi, thus pitting them against their natural counter. Meanwhile, the Hydras just flat-out melt to the Colossi, making it impossible to focus the Void Rays.
It's pretty obvious this is a lose-lose composition in a frontal ball-vs-ball confrontation, and was likely intended to be so.
Wow since this show about half the protoss on the ladder go void ray collosis. I havent really had any trouble stoping it though, in only like 2800 master zerg, but i think they just dont know how to do it. so far what has worked for me is i just take the whole map and get a mass muta/ corrupter with like lots of upgrades and some roaches to kill the stalkers. they have 1 big push and i just renforce and kill it. once there death ball is gone its gg. I dont know if this is actually imbalanced at top level but it isnt imbalanced when your not at the top level
Has anyone tried roach corruptor/queen? Queens to pick off VRs and heal the corruptors, corruptors to focus down the collosus? It's a little cutesy and it can be difficult to squeeze out the minerals for queens but seems like it may work. I need to really test it out wayyy more though.
If this community was around during the Brood War times, if we were sitting here 9 months after the Brood War release, I guarantee we would be having arguments about how overpowered lurkers are for denying all movement of any units, or how overpowered Vultures are for being able to get in and out of bases without any trouble, or how overpowered EMP was for taking off every single point of shields from Protoss units.
But you know what? Instead of complaining (perhaps they did complain!) they just sucked it up and dealt with it, counters were found, workarounds were found, and a new metagame evolved.
I guarantee if Blizzard took the game as it is now, stepped back and said "right, we are no longer patching this game for balance reasons at all", the metagame would continue to evolve and counters to everything would be found.
On February 21 2011 14:23 Dhalphir wrote: If this community was around during the Brood War times, if we were sitting here 9 months after the Brood War release, I guarantee we would be having arguments about how overpowered lurkers are for denying all movement of any units, or how overpowered Vultures are for being able to get in and out of bases without any trouble, or how overpowered EMP was for taking off every single point of shields from Protoss units.
But you know what? Instead of complaining (perhaps they did complain!) they just sucked it up and dealt with it, counters were found, workarounds were found, and a new metagame evolved.
I guarantee if Blizzard took the game as it is now, stepped back and said "right, we are no longer patching this game for balance reasons at all", the metagame would continue to evolve and counters to everything would be found.
Even when brood war was released 99.9% of the people playing didnt really know what the hell they were doing. it took a few years for standard play to kick in, and people realized how to play starcraft like you should. basic rts fundamentals that we know now people didnt back then so its hard to argue this.
On February 21 2011 14:23 Dhalphir wrote: If this community was around during the Brood War times, if we were sitting here 9 months after the Brood War release, I guarantee we would be having arguments about how overpowered lurkers are for denying all movement of any units, or how overpowered Vultures are for being able to get in and out of bases without any trouble, or how overpowered EMP was for taking off every single point of shields from Protoss units.
But you know what? Instead of complaining (perhaps they did complain!) they just sucked it up and dealt with it, counters were found, workarounds were found, and a new metagame evolved.
I guarantee if Blizzard took the game as it is now, stepped back and said "right, we are no longer patching this game for balance reasons at all", the metagame would continue to evolve and counters to everything would be found.
Well at least there was mechanical and multitasking skill requirement to play strats that seemed "IMBA". I can't really see any skill required to sit on a 2 base and build a death ball from 3 production building than 1a'ing to win a game. Void rays should be 4 supply to balance out this strat. Doesn't effect their early game but stops them being quite powerfull in the late game.
EPT
