• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:31
CEST 19:31
KST 02:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation9$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced4Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ i aint gon lie to u bruh... ASL20 Preliminary Maps [G] Progamer Settings [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 658 users

VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 46

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 65 Next
Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
February 19 2011 19:48 GMT
#901
On February 20 2011 03:19 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2011 02:11 Azarkon wrote:
On February 19 2011 20:06 Numy wrote:
On February 19 2011 10:36 Azarkon wrote:
Despite all the theory crafting, I have yet to see a game beyond the GTSL game in which this was actually pulled off successfully by the Protoss player, with Zerg not being able to do anything despite playing well and making the appropriate counters. In fact, the only game where I've seen a pro player lose to this build was Dimaga vs. White-Ra when Dimaga made too many corrupters and had like 20 of them leftover, after which White-Ra just ran him over with stalkers.

Either EU/US Protoss players don't understand the build, or EU/US Zerg players have found ways to counter it. From watching tournaments it seems that the standard stalker sentry colossi composition and the fast blink stalker strategy are more effective than this build, and produce games that look far more one-sided.


There's a third option. You don't watch enough EU/US pro games?


Well, let's see, I've watched, in the last few weeks:

Assembly 2011
Root Invitational
FXOpen Invitational
GCPL
Both TL Opens
Some BDL

So no, I don't think I'm behind on EU/US pro games. The only tournaments I don't regularly watch are the smaller ones like Craft Cups and the ESL Cups.


My point was more that there are more unknowns than we realise. Cannot state things from an observer point of view when we really don't know everything at work. We can supply theories just not absolutes.


Agreed. I never ruled out the possibility that VR/Colossi is overpowered, just saying that there hasn't been much proof in tournaments I've seen, and that this video lacked the details necessary to be convincing.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 19 2011 19:48 GMT
#902
I like how everyone seems to think that on two bases, protoss has the gas to pump void rays and colossi quickly. You can get support one stargate, one robo, and some upgrades. If you get a second stargate or a second robo, you can forget about upgrades. It takes a long long time to create a max ball of void rays and colossi on two bases.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Elean
Profile Joined October 2010
689 Posts
February 19 2011 19:51 GMT
#903
On February 20 2011 03:28 Tyrant0 wrote:


This build, especially when its such a quick forge fast expand has huge vulnerabilities to fast roach/hydra pressure off 2 base: If you dont have the collossi out in time hydras steam roll this type of tech before it gets off the ground- this composition has been around since the beta, it's well known and has always been known that going voidrays/collossus at the same time leaves you super vulnerable to a fast hydra push.

.

Do you have any replay ?

A fast hydra push is super all-in, you can not retreat, and you have to kill your oponent before the colossus comes out.

I've seen this hydra push fails so many time and never succeed. To early there is not enough hydra to break through the cannons, to late the colossus melt everything. If there is a timing window, it is extremely narrow, so I'd really like a replay to see what is this timing window.

I wish hydra didn't require lair....
It could fix zerg early game with little risk to be overpowered since hydra are not nearly as good as marines.

****

So many players talk about a colossus nerf, they have clearly missed the part where Idra and Artosis said that the best solution is not another nerf but a buff to give zerg a way to deal with the colossus + void rays.







TeWy
Profile Joined December 2009
France714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 19:53:41
February 19 2011 19:52 GMT
#904
You don't have to be impartial and absolutely fair, after all it's YOUR SHOW, but there's a certain degree of bias which has been reached in this show and which flirts with disinfirmation...

At one moment Idra pretty much implied that there was no way to beat this strategy. Specifically, he said that the only way to win was to catch the protoss offguard as the 200/200 army of Protoss is unbeatable (another bold statement that both of you semt to have no problem agreeing on) but that no good Protoss players would allow this to happen and Artosis responsed to that by saying "true true".

Mass muta and infestors are the natural counter to this strat, and it is the reason why this strat isn't over-used.
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
February 19 2011 19:57 GMT
#905
morrow beat socke right now doing this.
s031720
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden383 Posts
February 19 2011 19:58 GMT
#906
On February 20 2011 04:51 Elean wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2011 03:28 Tyrant0 wrote:


This build, especially when its such a quick forge fast expand has huge vulnerabilities to fast roach/hydra pressure off 2 base: If you dont have the collossi out in time hydras steam roll this type of tech before it gets off the ground- this composition has been around since the beta, it's well known and has always been known that going voidrays/collossus at the same time leaves you super vulnerable to a fast hydra push.

.

Do you have any replay ?

A fast hydra push is super all-in, you can not retreat, and you have to kill your oponent before the colossus comes out.

I've seen this hydra push fails so many time and never succeed. To early there is not enough hydra to break through the cannons, to late the colossus melt everything. If there is a timing window, it is extremely narrow, so I'd really like a replay to see what is this timing window.

I wish hydra didn't require lair....
It could fix zerg early game with little risk to be overpowered since hydra are not nearly as good as marines.

****

You dont have to win with the hydra timing, just do enough damage while transitioning out of it. "Enough" is relative, but denying the expansion will suffice.
The same thing goes for mutas or roaches.









Just another noob
s031720
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden383 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 20:00:15
February 19 2011 19:59 GMT
#907
On February 20 2011 04:19 CatZ.root wrote:
LOL people saying I beat a deathball with muta, while relying on HIDING A SPIRE FOR 20 MINUTES and showing fake hydralisks / mass queen to try and defend meanwhile... this is not what we should have to do, sorry.

edit: there isn't 1 thing wrong with pvz and possible compositions, there are MANY. luckily, or unluckily actually... most protoss aren't really using everything they can to their advantage, but this is only delaying the inevitable.



Do you have a suggestion on how to handle this discussed P build that is not reliant on bad scouting on the P part? A post from someone of your caliber should end this discussion pretty quickly.
Just another noob
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 21:22:13
February 19 2011 21:20 GMT
#908
Do you have any replay ?

A fast hydra push is super all-in, you can not retreat, and you have to kill your oponent before the colossus comes out.


Very few professional level replays of this mix being executed by protoss; Even then, I'm not pro nor are my opponents.

That being said, you have a wide open window as his robo bay/first collossus are in construction. Depending on his stargate count he'll have 3-6 voidrays and gateway units. Theres no way he can chase you down, and it's definitely not all-in when you have all of the freedom in the world to drone/expand/tech while he builds up.
DeltruS
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 05:08:13
February 20 2011 03:23 GMT
#909
Lalush was just stomped by oGsHero's void ray colossus army. That was AFTER Hero lost 6 colossi by attacking lost temple destructable rocks and not the hydras. Lalush built pure corruptors, had 2 corruptor attack upgrades and a much superior economy but still got roflstomped.
http://grooveshark.com/#/deltrus/music
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 03:46:51
February 20 2011 03:46 GMT
#910
Corrupter/hydra composition are directly countered by Void ray/colossi though.

Void Ray: (good against) Corrupter

Colossus: (good against) Hydralisk

Both according to the manual and therefore Blizzard design.

So not sure if Blizzard would buy this argument.

uSnAmplified
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1029 Posts
February 20 2011 04:50 GMT
#911
I cant for the life of me figure this out and im getting to the point of desperation, feels like nothing i throw at this can even dent it despite upgrades and supply advantage. Everything i do ends up with a protoss deathball waltzing into my base after winning a 200/200 battle with 150+ supply leftover.
~
HubertFelix
Profile Joined April 2010
France631 Posts
February 20 2011 04:56 GMT
#912
On February 20 2011 12:46 Azarkon wrote:
Void Ray: (good against) Corrupter

Colossus: (good against) Hydralisk

Both according to the manual and therefore Blizzard design.

So not sure if Blizzard would buy this argument.



Hydra good against void ray.
Corruptors good against colossus.

lol

The game is just more complicated than that.
usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
February 20 2011 06:55 GMT
#913
GSL has changed that specific map (Crevasse?) to have only one geyser in the in-base natural due to Protoss overpowering, I hear.
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
February 20 2011 07:04 GMT
#914
On February 20 2011 15:55 usethis2 wrote:
GSL has changed that specific map (Crevasse?) to have only one geyser in the in-base natural due to Protoss overpowering, I hear.


I'm still not sure how I feel about that. I suppose it's useful for SCIENCE, but I think it's weird to make maps to kill popular strategies that have just popped up. I suppose if it's only one map.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 07:34:52
February 20 2011 07:30 GMT
#915
On February 20 2011 13:56 HubertFelix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2011 12:46 Azarkon wrote:
Void Ray: (good against) Corrupter

Colossus: (good against) Hydralisk

Both according to the manual and therefore Blizzard design.

So not sure if Blizzard would buy this argument.



Hydra good against void ray.
Corruptors good against colossus.

lol

The game is just more complicated than that.


Corrupters ARE good against Colossus if they are attacking them, but in A-move scenarios, which is the scenario Lalush was in, they attack Void Rays instead of Colossi, thus pitting them against their natural counter. Meanwhile, the Hydras just flat-out melt to the Colossi, making it impossible to focus the Void Rays.

It's pretty obvious this is a lose-lose composition in a frontal ball-vs-ball confrontation, and was likely intended to be so.
savagebeavers
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada108 Posts
February 20 2011 07:35 GMT
#916
Wow since this show about half the protoss on the ladder go void ray collosis. I havent really had any trouble stoping it though, in only like 2800 master zerg, but i think they just dont know how to do it. so far what has worked for me is i just take the whole map and get a mass muta/ corrupter with like lots of upgrades and some roaches to kill the stalkers. they have 1 big push and i just renforce and kill it. once there death ball is gone its gg. I dont know if this is actually imbalanced at top level but it isnt imbalanced when your not at the top level
Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 09:37:01
February 20 2011 09:31 GMT
#917
Has anyone tried roach corruptor/queen? Queens to pick off VRs and heal the corruptors, corruptors to focus down the collosus? It's a little cutesy and it can be difficult to squeeze out the minerals for queens but seems like it may work. I need to really test it out wayyy more though.
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
February 21 2011 05:23 GMT
#918
If this community was around during the Brood War times, if we were sitting here 9 months after the Brood War release, I guarantee we would be having arguments about how overpowered lurkers are for denying all movement of any units, or how overpowered Vultures are for being able to get in and out of bases without any trouble, or how overpowered EMP was for taking off every single point of shields from Protoss units.

But you know what? Instead of complaining (perhaps they did complain!) they just sucked it up and dealt with it, counters were found, workarounds were found, and a new metagame evolved.

I guarantee if Blizzard took the game as it is now, stepped back and said "right, we are no longer patching this game for balance reasons at all", the metagame would continue to evolve and counters to everything would be found.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
February 21 2011 05:29 GMT
#919
On February 21 2011 14:23 Dhalphir wrote:
If this community was around during the Brood War times, if we were sitting here 9 months after the Brood War release, I guarantee we would be having arguments about how overpowered lurkers are for denying all movement of any units, or how overpowered Vultures are for being able to get in and out of bases without any trouble, or how overpowered EMP was for taking off every single point of shields from Protoss units.

But you know what? Instead of complaining (perhaps they did complain!) they just sucked it up and dealt with it, counters were found, workarounds were found, and a new metagame evolved.

I guarantee if Blizzard took the game as it is now, stepped back and said "right, we are no longer patching this game for balance reasons at all", the metagame would continue to evolve and counters to everything would be found.

Even when brood war was released 99.9% of the people playing didnt really know what the hell they were doing. it took a few years for standard play to kick in, and people realized how to play starcraft like you should. basic rts fundamentals that we know now people didnt back then so its hard to argue this.
ckukner
Profile Joined November 2010
Turkey54 Posts
February 21 2011 16:25 GMT
#920
On February 21 2011 14:23 Dhalphir wrote:
If this community was around during the Brood War times, if we were sitting here 9 months after the Brood War release, I guarantee we would be having arguments about how overpowered lurkers are for denying all movement of any units, or how overpowered Vultures are for being able to get in and out of bases without any trouble, or how overpowered EMP was for taking off every single point of shields from Protoss units.

But you know what? Instead of complaining (perhaps they did complain!) they just sucked it up and dealt with it, counters were found, workarounds were found, and a new metagame evolved.

I guarantee if Blizzard took the game as it is now, stepped back and said "right, we are no longer patching this game for balance reasons at all", the metagame would continue to evolve and counters to everything would be found.


Well at least there was mechanical and multitasking skill requirement to play strats that seemed "IMBA". I can't really see any skill required to sit on a 2 base and build a death ball from 3 production building than 1a'ing to win a game.
Void rays should be 4 supply to balance out this strat. Doesn't effect their early game but stops them being quite powerfull in the late game.
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 65 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV European League
16:00
Swiss Groups Day 3
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
WardiTV605
TKL 245
Liquipedia
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
16:00
Warmup Cup 2
uThermal235
IndyStarCraft 207
SteadfastSC97
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 458
TKL 245
uThermal 239
IndyStarCraft 192
mcanning 169
SteadfastSC 93
UpATreeSC 72
BRAT_OK 68
MindelVK 18
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1652
Shuttle 1056
EffOrt 757
Larva 478
firebathero 337
Mini 293
Dewaltoss 84
TY 66
soO 40
HiyA 35
[ Show more ]
Rock 23
GoRush 13
IntoTheRainbow 10
yabsab 9
sas.Sziky 8
Dota 2
Gorgc11017
qojqva2210
League of Legends
singsing2225
Dendi1036
Counter-Strike
fl0m964
byalli552
flusha339
zeus246
Foxcn171
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu319
Khaldor139
Other Games
FrodaN2255
Beastyqt598
KnowMe148
oskar144
QueenE54
Trikslyr48
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick45299
StarCraft 2
angryscii 9
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 6
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2610
• masondota2540
League of Legends
• Nemesis5673
• TFBlade868
• Jankos620
Other Games
• Shiphtur441
• imaqtpie294
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 29m
RSL Revival
16h 29m
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
19h 29m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
RSL Revival
1d 16h
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 22h
OSC
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
[ Show More ]
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.