EPTVoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 45
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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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InfusedTT.DaZe
Romania693 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On February 19 2011 10:36 Azarkon wrote: Despite all the theory crafting, I have yet to see a game beyond the GTSL game in which this was actually pulled off successfully by the Protoss player, with Zerg not being able to do anything despite playing well and making the appropriate counters. In fact, the only game where I've seen a pro player lose to this build was Dimaga vs. White-Ra when Dimaga made too many corrupters and had like 20 of them leftover, after which White-Ra just ran him over with stalkers. Either EU/US Protoss players don't understand the build, or EU/US Zerg players have found ways to counter it. From watching tournaments it seems that the standard stalker sentry colossi composition and the fast blink stalker strategy are more effective than this build, and produce games that look far more one-sided. There's a third option. You don't watch enough EU/US pro games? | ||
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honey_badger
Djibouti46 Posts
1.If Zerg goes unit-heavy early in the game he sacrifices his economy, and it is well-known that while other races can ramp up their economy Z needs to get drones early to keep up. Protoss will then just cannon down on two bases and pump gateway units like they did in SC1 with their fast expand and ultimately Z can't bust down the front. Protoss then have a better econ and Zerg can't come back. This is why... 2.If Zerg macroes, like Kyrix, and gets to three bases producing virtually zero fighting units, he will have an econ advantage, which you normally convert late in the game. The problem is that even if you have every expo on the map it's impossible to kill the P deathball army: if you go mutaroach they go col/void/stalk and the DPS takes the Z units out before they can do anything. If you go mass mass mutas off 3 bases they'll either timing push you or cut most of the colossus (except for the 2 it takes to kill 100 lings before they can reach your army) and focus on anti-air, which Z can do nothing about. But what about mutas? Why don't you just go muta harass? As Artosis and IdrA point out, two-base P starting off with 3gate can successfully timing push a Z in the midgame before he hits a good number of mutas. You may kill all his probes but you will be unable to stop the stalker/zeal/sentry army that kills your whole base. Even if the Z manages not to die to the timing attack, blink stalkers own mutas until you have a huge mass of them (most everyone defending P here seems to miss this and, indeed, in gold league they probably can't find anyone to successfully use blink). The deathball has a lot of stalkers in it which deal with muta until the mutas hit critical mass, by which point a 2-colossus timing push will almost certainly end the game. The problem with countering the P main/nat with mutas right after the P pushes out is that you can trade the P base for the Z base and, once again, the mutalisks will lose in a battle to the P stalker army. One way or another the P will sit in his base until 200/200 and when he comes out you die. And infestors? Colossus or VR kill them before they even get close. Even if you get off every NP they only can do this for a second or two before they die. Waste of 150 gas. | ||
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Falcon_NL
Netherlands236 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On February 19 2011 19:39 s031720 wrote: Ive seen both MrBitter and Destiny play against this strat. They both lost. It IS a very powerful P composition, there is no doubt about it, and its definately NOT theorycrafting wherever you got that idea. I thought we were talking about tournament games between top players as opposed to ladder games (even if it's between very good players)? Artosis claimed he beat everyone on Korean ladder for a week using this strategy, but it hasn't translated to tournament victories so far. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On February 19 2011 20:06 Numy wrote: There's a third option. You don't watch enough EU/US pro games? Well, let's see, I've watched, in the last few weeks: Assembly 2011 Root Invitational FXOpen Invitational GCPL Both TL Opens Some BDL So no, I don't think I'm behind on EU/US pro games. The only tournaments I don't regularly watch are the smaller ones like Craft Cups and the ESL Cups. | ||
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banned_again4
1 Post
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 19 2011 22:02 honey_badger wrote: 1.If Zerg goes unit-heavy early in the game he sacrifices his economy, and it is well-known that while other races can ramp up their economy Z needs to get drones early to keep up. Protoss will then just cannon down on two bases and pump gateway units like they did in SC1 with their fast expand and ultimately Z can't bust down the front. Protoss then have a better econ and Zerg can't come back. This is why... Maximum amount of probes Protoss can make per production cycle: 2. Maximum amount of drones Zerg and make per production cycle: 14 confuseddog.jpg. It's pretty common to see a good Zerg make 8 drones at a time two or three times in a row if they feel they can get away with it. Even if the Z manages not to die to the timing attack, blink stalkers own mutas until you have a huge mass of them (most everyone defending P here seems to miss this and, indeed, in gold league they probably can't find anyone to successfully use blink). The deathball has a lot of stalkers in it which deal with muta until the mutas hit critical mass, by which point a 2-colossus timing push will almost certainly end the game. I like the "I'm in a higher league so nyeh" elitism from a post that claims a protoss can mass stalkers, colossi, and VRs off 4 geysers and still have room to fit in blink. I don't care if you're rank 1 masters; if your math doesn't work, it doesn't work. And this math does not work. Even if a Protoss scouts with a Phoenix, sees the spire, and then makes the decision to get a twilight council and c-boost blink, that takes a long time. Protoss can't rush to mass everything scary. | ||
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Crashburn
United States476 Posts
And infestors? Colossus or VR kill them before they even get close. Even if you get off every NP they only can do this for a second or two before they die. Waste of 150 gas. You should have seen this game iNcontroL played against someone in the vVv clan (I think Titan) on Blistering Sands. iNcontroL got the typical protoss death ball (stalker/colossi/void ray) off of two bases while the zerg went speedling/speed roach/infestors with neural parasite. The infestors absolutely had enough range to take control of most of the colossi and void rays, and but for a rather large error in micromanagement, the zerg would have won -- he destroyed the protoss death ball. Day9 was recording the games and may use this one in particular in a future daily. Otherwise, I'm not sure how or even if you can go back and watch it. But infestors should be used more against protoss -- you can't just mass up roach/hydra or ling/muta and pray your a-moving works. | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
20% more to massive. Both late game units for Zerg are massive. | ||
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Yrq
Iceland88 Posts
On February 20 2011 02:48 Smigi wrote: I don't think people understand that the last Voidray change had a severe late-game buff, against Z atleast. 20% more to massive. Both late game units for Zerg are massive. Also a mid to lategame nerf though, the speed nerf hit voidrays hard. I think the massive change was mostly for anti-colossus, but helps with broodlords aswell ofcourse. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On February 19 2011 22:02 honey_badger wrote: Mutalisks in no way counter this build, despite all of the players here which claim that it "owns" the col/voidray composition. Protoss starts 3gate expand, not fast tech to voidray/colossus without any gateway units. 1.If Zerg goes unit-heavy early in the game he sacrifices his economy, and it is well-known that while other races can ramp up their economy Z needs to get drones early to keep up. Protoss will then just cannon down on two bases and pump gateway units like they did in SC1 with their fast expand and ultimately Z can't bust down the front. Protoss then have a better econ and Zerg can't come back. This is why... 2.If Zerg macroes, like Kyrix, and gets to three bases producing virtually zero fighting units, he will have an econ advantage, which you normally convert late in the game. The problem is that even if you have every expo on the map it's impossible to kill the P deathball army: if you go mutaroach they go col/void/stalk and the DPS takes the Z units out before they can do anything. If you go mass mass mutas off 3 bases they'll either timing push you or cut most of the colossus (except for the 2 it takes to kill 100 lings before they can reach your army) and focus on anti-air, which Z can do nothing about. But what about mutas? Why don't you just go muta harass? As Artosis and IdrA point out, two-base P starting off with 3gate can successfully timing push a Z in the midgame before he hits a good number of mutas. You may kill all his probes but you will be unable to stop the stalker/zeal/sentry army that kills your whole base. Even if the Z manages not to die to the timing attack, blink stalkers own mutas until you have a huge mass of them (most everyone defending P here seems to miss this and, indeed, in gold league they probably can't find anyone to successfully use blink). The deathball has a lot of stalkers in it which deal with muta until the mutas hit critical mass, by which point a 2-colossus timing push will almost certainly end the game. The problem with countering the P main/nat with mutas right after the P pushes out is that you can trade the P base for the Z base and, once again, the mutalisks will lose in a battle to the P stalker army. One way or another the P will sit in his base until 200/200 and when he comes out you die. And infestors? Colossus or VR kill them before they even get close. Even if you get off every NP they only can do this for a second or two before they die. Waste of 150 gas. Have you even watch the show? 1. if you see this build coming, you have no need to rush for any units. They won't move out. Colossus and void ray takes forever to build and they have low warpgate count so no fast reinforcement. On some maps, you can literally just wait until your econ is up for the mass muta/corruptor ball. 2. 2 base colo/void ray is very light on stalkers and will not have the extra gas for blink/stalkers. Gateway force is about 90% zealots. 3. You don't have to go muta against their build until you are sure its coming. It takes like 20 mins to carry out. You can start any game as normal versus toss and once you scout the void ray/colossus off 2 base switch to muta. They won't push out since it is important for toss to hit critically mass. This is not the standard 2 base colossus+gateway into 3 base void/colo/gateway. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On February 20 2011 02:11 Azarkon wrote: Well, let's see, I've watched, in the last few weeks: Assembly 2011 Root Invitational FXOpen Invitational GCPL Both TL Opens Some BDL So no, I don't think I'm behind on EU/US pro games. The only tournaments I don't regularly watch are the smaller ones like Craft Cups and the ESL Cups. My point was more that there are more unknowns than we realise. Cannot state things from an observer point of view when we really don't know everything at work. We can supply theories just not absolutes. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
This build, especially when its such a quick forge fast expand has huge vulnerabilities to fast roach/hydra pressure off 2 base: If you dont have the collossi out in time hydras steam roll this type of tech before it gets off the ground- this composition has been around since the beta, it's well known and has always been known that going voidrays/collossus at the same time leaves you super vulnerable to a fast hydra push. The protoss has to be extremely passive as he needs a critical mass of voidrays/collossus to be able to push out against a maxed zerg. Zerg is free to expand everywhere, probably depends on map. Over-making corruptors to kill the collossi above all else lets your hydras melt the small gateway army/voidrays as the void rays focus down the corruptors; Once the collossus fall, they will never come back in bulk unless the protoss takes a third. Mutas also crush this, which is why protoss have to tech switch very early in order to deal with it. | ||
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RandomAccount#49059
United States2140 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
Voidray are very supply efficient too, a maxed Voidray army will tear apart everything but it will cost more than any other army you can make, they cost even more per supply than Carriers and Battle Cruisers | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
edit: there isn't 1 thing wrong with pvz and possible compositions, there are MANY. luckily, or unluckily actually... most protoss aren't really using everything they can to their advantage, but this is only delaying the inevitable. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On February 20 2011 04:19 CatZ.root wrote: LOL people saying I beat a deathball with muta, while relying on HIDING A SPIRE FOR 20 MINUTES and showing fake hydralisks / mass queen to try and defend meanwhile... this is not what we should have to do, sorry. edit: there isn't 1 thing wrong with pvz and possible compositions, there are MANY. luckily, or unluckily actually... most protoss aren't really using everything they can to their advantage, but this is only delaying the inevitable. Aside from Void/Colossus and the regular Colossus/Stalker/Sentry/Immo, what is there that hasn't been used? | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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