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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
What if void ray damage doesn't stack? If two voids shoot the same target, only one does damage. Possible benefits/game changes: * Void rays are no longer an all-kill unit, but a support unit. * Death ball no longer insta-kills units. * They can be buffed to previous stats, meaning that even though the death ball becomes weaker, individual voids become stronger. * Some micro needed to make voids efficient, adding a game play element. /my 2c | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 18 2011 17:49 O.P. wrote: I had an idea that I need to throw out, with the usual apologies if this is redundant/unnecessary. What if void ray damage doesn't stack? If two voids shoot the same target, only one does damage. Possible benefits/game changes: * Void rays are no longer an all-kill unit, but a support unit. * Death ball no longer insta-kills units. * They can be buffed to previous stats, meaning that even though the death ball becomes weaker, individual voids become stronger. * Some micro needed to make voids efficient, adding a game play element. /my 2c Bad idea. Actually voids are good as they are imo. They were really strong before, but after the nerf they are ok for their price. The problem is deadly collosus.^^ | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On February 18 2011 18:08 Alpina wrote: Bad idea. Actually voids are good as they are imo. They were really strong before, but after the nerf they are ok for their price. The problem is deadly collosus.^^ I agree. Colossi are the part that is hard to deal with and in this combo corruptors just don't work that good to counter them since you need too many of them, which leaves you with a weak ground army. I think reducing the AoE of colossi or reducing the attack speed and/or damage would suffice to balance it out. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On February 18 2011 18:08 Alpina wrote: Bad idea. Actually voids are good as they are imo. They were really strong before, but after the nerf they are ok for their price. The problem is deadly collosus.^^ Even though the Void Rays might be "ok-ish" for their cost right now they become deadly when they are massed. This problem of the critical number only really surfaces when you have units which can be stacked (like flyers) and / or which can be placed tightly together while having a very long range (like Colossi). The Colossi - combined with the fences provided by Sentries - are able to shoot at opposing units without getting into their range ... in fact the Colossus has more than twice the range of the Roaches after you upgrade them. So on one side we have units which "stack very well" in their effect on the battlefield and on the other side we have masses of units which do not stack that well. Only when the stacking side is below the "we kill you before you can do significant damage to us" numbers can you really talk of the opponents having a chance. For PvZ the situation is really bad and even PvT can be very hard for the Terran since his "anti-deathball" units all have their exploitable drawbacks. Neither Colossus nor Void Ray have any important drawback and their mobility gives both quite a good edge to survive. In comparison High Templar with their Psi Storm do not stack very well because two Storms dont stack. Also the range of Colossi is much greater and their shots do not need to be triggered like Storms. | ||
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Mosin
United States7 Posts
The build starts with 1 stargate -> expand on smaller maps 15 nexus-> stargate on bigger maps (new GSL maps). 1 stargate-nexus build consists of chronoing first void to stop any roach all-in builds, and then building a pheonix to scout/harass zerg. This happens at late 6 min mark. Mutas pop out at late 7 min-ish to 8 min. You have one full min to scout spire and react. There is no 'mutas running wild while I'm building two stargates'. The first pheonix forces zerg to go hydra. Zerg CAN go muta as suggested but will only lose to 2 stargate. zerg CAN go mass corruptor to counter that pheonix but will not be able to stop protoss from getting a third or defend his own third. I hope I don't have to explain how 3 base toss vs 2 base zerg goes. The build is strong because it gives zerg very few option during the course of the game. The most optimal units to react in the mid game only get obliterated in the end. Don't be stupid and go 'hey I lost to mass mutas with this build because I tried my worst and built 10 colossi 1 zealot and 1 void. It's still the deathball, right?'. | ||
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Mosin
United States7 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:40 Xain wrote: People need to remember that zerg can tech switch faster than protoss and the argument "well, if I go this, he goes that" is really a bad way to look at it, cause obviously the protoss can counter everything you do if he prepares for it enough.... as you can. The thing is, if you see his collossus/vr death ball moving out, you can pump out mutas way faster than he can pump pheonixes. Also, if he opens phoenix to prevent the mass mutas, and you go hydras to stop it, why would you blindly continue pumping out the same units? Queens + couple of hydras shut down any phoenix harass while you transition to air play and then you just have to decide the right balance of mutas and corrupters depending on his composition, and you actually have the time to do it and ajust quickly because of the way zerg works with larva. Forcing a protoss to tech switch is more costly and time consuming for him than for you. 1. zerg loses scouting options once pheonix pops out. It's protoss who decides the right balance, not zerg. 2. Nexus -> stargate opening will get you 200 supply unit of deathball in 16 min mark. Zerg doesn't really have time windows to tech jump from this to that. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On February 18 2011 07:49 Starcraftmazter wrote: That makes complete and perfect sense. I think that the only zergs that have trouble with this build are the overly passive ones (like Idra) who rely on victory through taking the whole map, having a big army engagement, re-massing their army and wiping out the opponents. This is but one and only one way to play. If you go hyper aggressive at the start of the mid game, you could defeat it with a plethora of strategies. Those passive zergs should learn to broaden their style and dare I say get out of the comfort zone every now and again and actually try and aggressively counter their opponent's build instead of hoping to win because of building lots of units quickly. the thing is you cant really attack into a protoss that just sits in his base. colosus takes 3 seconds to walk upin main for a drop and 3 sec to walk back. voidrays aswell :S sentry also stops any frontal attack i think they mention this in the episode aswell and if your talking about roach ling allins without lair then i say, voidrays are there in time and plenty of sentries. and if you mean hydralisk 2base allin with speedoverlords for highway then the colosus comes in time for that and stops it i think the best style against this is just massexpanding and then make a huge mutalisk switch after the first engagement. but again if toss knows whats up he stops make voidray colosus and masses up stalkers and makes an earlier timing and runs you over because your overgreedy | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On February 18 2011 20:26 Mosin wrote: 2. Nexus -> stargate opening will get you 200 supply unit of deathball in 16 min mark. Zerg doesn't really have time windows to tech jump from this to that. i would really like if anyone could provide such a replay that shows maxxed Colossus/Voidray Army at the 16min. mark. ty | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
 I'd love it if they had voidrays stronger when there are only 3-4 of them and not as strong as they are now when there are 20 of them, but that might be tricky since I hear people still lose to Voidray rushes (I don't do this). 2. Nexus -> stargate opening will get you 200 supply unit of deathball in 16 min mark. Zerg doesn't really have time windows to tech jump from this to that. Huh? Please show me how to do this "16min" 200 supply death ball of the most Cost per supply units in the game | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
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s031720
Sweden383 Posts
On February 18 2011 20:33 MorroW wrote: the thing is you cant really attack into a protoss that just sits in his base. colosus takes 3 seconds to walk upin main for a drop and 3 sec to walk back. voidrays aswell :S sentry also stops any frontal attack i think they mention this in the episode aswell and if your talking about roach ling allins without lair then i say, voidrays are there in time and plenty of sentries. and if you mean hydralisk 2base allin with speedoverlords for highway then the colosus comes in time for that and stops it i think the best style against this is just massexpanding and then make a huge mutalisk switch after the first engagement. but again if toss knows whats up he stops make voidray colosus and masses up stalkers and makes an earlier timing and runs you over because your overgreedy Morrow; How do you feel about a hydra timing at your lvl off play? | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 18 2011 20:36 freetgy wrote: i would really like if anyone could provide such a replay that shows maxxed Colossus/Voidray Army at the 16min. mark. ty When MC goes Forge FE, the nexus finishes at 5 minutes, at which point he has 100 gas. Then he starts the tech Gateway - 65 seconds (6:05) Cybercore - 50 seconds (6:55) Robotics Facility - 65 Seconds (8:00) Robotics Bay - 65 Seconds (9:05) First Colossus = 75 Seconds (10:20) Second Colossus = 75 Seconds (11:35) Third Colossus = 75 Seconds (12:50) Fourth Colossus = 75 Seconds (14:05) Final Colossus = 75 Seconds (15:20). So I can see why people might get believe that. The reason it's wrong to think that, is that you can't support building a Colossus and 2 VRs at the same time. Even assuming you're spending your Chrono Boost elsewhere, Colos cost 160 gas a minute (250/75 * 60), and 2 gate VRs cost 300 gpm. That's a total of 460 gas per minute. According to Liquipedia, you only get 456 gas per minute off 2 base. So that's just more gas then you have (and switching to Phoenix consumes more gpm). So you can't maintain perfect production off two stargate robo, and you can't be chronoboosting that out. And you certainly can't be getting 2 VRs and a Colo while getting, say, Thermal Lance. No matter how good your macro is, things are gonna idle. This also means, incidentally, that you can't go 2 gate Phoenix and still produce Colossi. Also, no one commented on my Muta/Queen idea, and that makes me ;_; | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On February 18 2011 21:05 Ribbon wrote: When MC goes Forge FE, the nexus finishes at 5 minutes, at which point he has 100 gas. Then he starts the tech Gateway - 65 seconds (6:05) Cybercore - 50 seconds (6:55) Robotics Facility - 65 Seconds (8:00) Robotics Bay - 65 Seconds (9:05) First Colossus = 75 Seconds (10:20) Second Colossus = 75 Seconds (11:35) Third Colossus = 75 Seconds (12:50) Fourth Colossus = 75 Seconds (14:05) Final Colossus = 75 Seconds (15:20). So I can see why people might get believe that. The reason it's wrong to think that, is that you can't support building a Colossus and 2 VRs at the same time. Even assuming you're spending your Chrono Boost elsewhere, Colos cost 160 gas a minute (250/75 * 60), and 2 gate VRs cost 300 gpm. That's a total of 460 gas per minute. According to Liquipedia, you only get 456 gas per minute off 2 base. So that's just more gas then you have (and switching to Phoenix consumes more gpm). So you can't maintain perfect production off two stargate robo, and you can't be chronoboosting that out. And you certainly can't be getting 2 VRs and a Colo while getting, say, Thermal Lance. No matter how good your macro is, things are gonna idle. This also means, incidentally, that you can't go 2 gate Phoenix and still produce Colossi. Also, no one commented on my Muta/Queen idea, and that makes me ;_; problem with muta queen is that pheonix and chase+kill a lot of muta before they retreive back to queen. I think best option is still muta corruptor. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On February 18 2011 21:05 Ribbon wrote: When MC goes Forge FE, the nexus finishes at 5 minutes, at which point he has 100 gas. Then he starts the tech Gateway - 65 seconds (6:05) Cybercore - 50 seconds (6:55) Robotics Facility - 65 Seconds (8:00) Robotics Bay - 65 Seconds (9:05) First Colossus = 75 Seconds (10:20) Second Colossus = 75 Seconds (11:35) Third Colossus = 75 Seconds (12:50) Fourth Colossus = 75 Seconds (14:05) Final Colossus = 75 Seconds (15:20). So I can see why people might get believe that. The reason it's wrong to think that, is that you can't support building a Colossus and 2 VRs at the same time. Even assuming you're spending your Chrono Boost elsewhere, Colos cost 160 gas a minute (250/75 * 60), and 2 gate VRs cost 300 gpm. That's a total of 460 gas per minute. According to Liquipedia, you only get 456 gas per minute off 2 base. So that's just more gas then you have (and switching to Phoenix consumes more gpm). So you can't maintain perfect production off two stargate robo, and you can't be chronoboosting that out. And you certainly can't be getting 2 VRs and a Colo while getting, say, Thermal Lance. No matter how good your macro is, things are gonna idle. This also means, incidentally, that you can't go 2 gate Phoenix and still produce Colossi. Also, no one commented on my Muta/Queen idea, and that makes me ;_; 1. 456 gas per minute isnt much lower than 460 gas per minute 2. The Protoss does not start at zero gas, but at a stockpile of X when he starts to produce Colossi. If you take these two together you can support that production ... according to your numbers you only need (roughly) 40 extra gas to have enough for the ten minutes of production until your last Colossus is out. On February 18 2011 21:42 xbankx wrote: problem with muta queen is that pheonix and chase+kill a lot of muta before they retreive back to queen. I think best option is still muta corruptor. I think the point of Muta-Queen is to have the Queens below the Mutalisks adding more firepower while being able to transfuse the Mutas. This isnt pretty immobile and the Protoss might be tempted to hunt the Queens with ground forces. | ||
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scottly
United States14 Posts
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thehitman
1105 Posts
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sK.iNsighT
United States27 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On February 18 2011 18:17 Manimal_pro wrote: this is true and there is a problem with the void ray collo combo, but what i really hate about protoss is the archon toilet. Blizzard please nerf the mothership lmao yea cuz the mothership wasn't nerfed enough already (most fuckin nerfed unit in the game). Last time people actually found a use for it (surrounding vortex with ffs) it was promptly nerfed. I swear, if they do it again... | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
Ofc Minigun could have scouted better but Catz had allready revealed his hydras and right after doing so he pumped mutas. Forget about corruptors. Mutas is the way to go. | ||
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