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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
I'm sorry, but this is my first post regarding "balance." I think this may be a valid solution to the issue. If I'm wrong or anything, please let me know.
First of all, I think a lot of the posts are referring to a maxed army vs maxed army. I believe the show's topic was about 2 base void/colossus. The void/colossus part is scary and can hard to deal with. But the 2 base part is not. Idra and Artosis mention that guarding 2 base while building up voids and colossus is easy, but that also means the Protoss is giving up map control. VR's don't necessarily hold map control and not having them at your base could jeopardize your defense (map specific).
The Zerg gets the opportunity to expand and spread creep safely, while the Protoss is trying to come up with a "deathball" on 2 bases. For 2 bases that pump colossus, vr's and gateway units for defense, you would probably have 2-4 robo/stargate.
This actually reminded me of this past funday monday's topic: Mass Contaminate. Of course, you don't have to make 10+ overseers, but a few would be able to keep the robo/stargate production down, forcing the Protoss to either a) make more gateway units, b) throw up a significant number of cannons/production facilities so he can make VR's/Colossus. All the while, he is losing precious time to reach the critical mass necessary for the "deathball."
Meanwhile, the Zerg is freely expanding, spreading creep, harassing with overseers (which will also spot any tech switches), and pumping the appropriate units. In this situation, I can see the Zerg producing much faster than the Protoss and using that advantage to attack and remake units.
If the Protoss holds, he can't rebuild faster than the Zerg. If the Protoss holds really well, he might try to take a 3rd or counterattack. The "deathball" is not known for its mobility so counterattacking without a maxed army is very risky. Taking a 3rd holds back unit production and makes defending even harder.
sorry if this was dumb!
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On February 18 2011 08:23 j3i wrote:
sorry if this was dumb!
To the contrary, you bring up very valid discussion points, and are actively thinking about the issue, rather than being another one of these people that just cries imbalance.
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On February 18 2011 02:21 clickrush wrote:
Did anyone try a 2base hydra timing attack with speedling reinforcements? Iam not sure the doublestarport voidray colossus build can hold this if you stop droneing and just flood with speedlings.
this is allready a established response to some of the blinkstalker timings.
artosis and Idra didnt mention this so I wonder.
I know for certain this works, because thats what I do. Its even more effective vs this build than most other starport-builds so try it out.
Many protoss players seems to recomend going Muta, but that dosent work at all for me. I wonder what side they are on... 
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On February 18 2011 05:52 Starcraftmazter wrote:"Idra, they are hating on us for QQing about terran all the time. What can we do?" "Hey Artosis, remember that ONE GUY in GSTL who lost to that wacky colossi/void ray build, why don't we QQ about that?" "Phoenix Colossi? Not hard at all because of <insert stupid uninformed theorycrafting here>" "Why is PvT so strong? Because people don't use the most useless units in TvP (ie. mech) and they are actually good because of <insert stupuid uninformed theorycrafting here>". "Once a protoss gets a lot of colossi it's impossible! Terrans have learned to deny protoss that opportunity, but we zergs are too high class to have to do that, thus it must be imbalanced!" "Zomg 20 void rays OP! Why should the zerg have to worry about not letting protoss get a death ball of units like terran? No, we just want to sit back and win!". "Even though terran should diversify their play into useless mech, zerg should never do anything except roach hydra corruptor!" *Ignore a huge timing window when you can do army swaps with the protoss and harass them while you macro up, not allowing them to get a death ball of units* "Conclusion: Protoss must be OP! Buff zerg! Buff zerg!" *evil laugh*. With every one of these videos, I am liking Artosis less and less 
are you serious? one person has done this build? i've been facing this build over and over for about a month now. just because you don't play and have no clue what people are doing in the game doesnt mean you can post like that
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On February 18 2011 08:51 s031720 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:21 clickrush wrote:
Did anyone try a 2base hydra timing attack with speedling reinforcements? Iam not sure the doublestarport voidray colossus build can hold this if you stop droneing and just flood with speedlings.
this is allready a established response to some of the blinkstalker timings.
artosis and Idra didnt mention this so I wonder. I know for certain this works, because thats what I do. Its even more effective vs this build than most other starport-builds so try it out. Many protoss players seems to recomend going Muta, but that dosent work at all for me. I wonder what side they are on...
Most toss recommend muta because that is what we feel our build is weak to. I used this enough times(mostly on shakura since it is easy to hold second. I folded to a lot of mass mtua play because I scouted muta too late or a good roach timing is powerful. It is true that this build start with void ray but it is just really hard to stop like 12-16 roaches then mass reinforce ling. Cause 1-2 void with like 5 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry is not gonna hold 15 roaches and like 30-40 lings. Normally that leaves me with no expo and half the amount of probes to drones.
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Next episode: should probably address 2 rax pressure TvZ with bunks, MULES and Salvage how they make that strategy NOT an all-in, and the (over)power of TvP mech play
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On February 18 2011 08:58 SwizzY wrote:
Next episode: should probably address 2 rax pressure TvZ with bunks, MULES and Salvage how they make that strategy NOT an all-in, and the (over)power of TvP mech play
I think you should refrain from posting.
User was warned for this post
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On February 18 2011 09:04 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 08:58 SwizzY wrote:
Next episode: should probably address 2 rax pressure TvZ with bunks, MULES and Salvage how they make that strategy NOT an all-in, and the (over)power of TvP mech play I think you should refrain from posting.
eh, go fuck yourself.
User was warned for this post
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On February 18 2011 08:58 SwizzY wrote:
Next episode: should probably address 2 rax pressure TvZ with bunks, MULES and Salvage how they make that strategy NOT an all-in, and the (over)power of TvP mech play
You ever played as terran against zerg? Zerg makes like 8 lings and that bunker is dead even if it has marines in it.
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I love the show and i'm a huge Artosis fanboy. He's my idol.
Please don't lissen to the post about zerg QQ and whine fest, and good on you if you actually read a lot of these post. I only got through about 2 pages.
For my 2 cents I play Protoss, I'm gold league and not all that great and I haven't lost yet with this build.
How would mass muta do? Don't think you covered that in the episode but I could be wrong.
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On February 18 2011 08:56 cheapfood wrote:
are you serious? one person has done this build? i've been facing this build over and over for about a month now. just because you don't play and have no clue what people are doing in the game doesnt mean you can post like that
I was referring to the GSL - ie. the highest level of play. I am uninterested in what happens on the ladder.
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ive used the hydra drop to quite good effect with ling harrass whilst getting my third up, and using 2 or 3 overseers, how ever if the protoss hallucinates pheonixs over or scouts sufficiently they can easily keep u away while they continue to build up their death ball... so its only been used to good effect cuz i think a few toss players are gettin a lil cocky with this build and getting caught off guard. I think if u hit them hard early it can be stopped but it goes against the nature of the macro zerg game :c
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I'm not sure how well infesters would handle protoss armies.....
But I would love to see them used more often.
Fungal growth is underrated especially when used in succession.
I think a proper buff to zerg would be to up the casting range on fungal, it would help infesters survive against 9 range thermal lance.
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On February 18 2011 09:54 Starcraftmazter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 08:56 cheapfood wrote:
are you serious? one person has done this build? i've been facing this build over and over for about a month now. just because you don't play and have no clue what people are doing in the game doesnt mean you can post like that I was referring to the GSL - ie. the highest level of play. I am uninterested in what happens on the ladder.
In the GSL, the build came up once. Not enough data to build a case on.
All of Artosis and Idra's examples aside from that one game are from ladder.
Meanwhile, here in the foreigner's scene, we've had several run-ins with attempts by Protoss pro-gamers like White-Ra, Mini-Gun, and Mana to build vr/colossi death balls that were effectively countered by their Zerg opponents.
So as of this moment, the onus of professional play proof is on the people calling the build imba, not on the people calling for "wait and see."
If the build is truly as powerful as it is said to be, it should result in a Protoss all-kill of Zerg in the next GSL whenever players of comparable skill meet.
Let's wait and see.
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On February 18 2011 08:57 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 08:51 s031720 wrote:On February 18 2011 02:21 clickrush wrote:
Did anyone try a 2base hydra timing attack with speedling reinforcements? Iam not sure the doublestarport voidray colossus build can hold this if you stop droneing and just flood with speedlings.
this is allready a established response to some of the blinkstalker timings.
artosis and Idra didnt mention this so I wonder. I know for certain this works, because thats what I do. Its even more effective vs this build than most other starport-builds so try it out. Many protoss players seems to recomend going Muta, but that dosent work at all for me. I wonder what side they are on... Most toss recommend muta because that is what we feel our build is weak to. I used this enough times(mostly on shakura since it is easy to hold second. I folded to a lot of mass mtua play because I scouted muta too late or a good roach timing is powerful. It is true that this build start with void ray but it is just really hard to stop like 12-16 roaches then mass reinforce ling. Cause 1-2 void with like 5 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry is not gonna hold 15 roaches and like 30-40 lings. Normally that leaves me with no expo and half the amount of probes to drones.
Yeah, I think we can agree on that the Z answer to this build is a timing more than a composition thing. Wheter it is hydra, roach or muta depends on several things, map for one (wouldnt go hydra timing on shakura for instance). As things becomes more refined some timings may become more or less effective or viable.
Its definately not unbeatable, but if it gets up uninterrupted its very powerful. I think that is kind of a consensus we all could agree on.
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Okay, so let's think positively.
If we go Mutas and he sticks to Colo/VR, we end up doing well (or at least well enough to justify the mutas). This seems to be a commonly accepted idea. Therefore, dropping creep to build a hidden spire while showing a Hydra Den isn't a bad idea.
But what if he scouts it and goes 2gate Phoenix? Instead of declaring it an auto-loss, let's think about how we deal with that situation.
We are going 2-base Muta, probably while expanding. When you go Muta, you have a shitton of minerals, to the point where even top-level Zergs will build an extra hatch to get the larva they need to spend it all on Zerglings. But what do we want Zerglings for? They won't help against Phoenixes, and they aren't much use against the death ball. We're only getting them to keep our money low.
What if, instead of going 2 base 3-hatch Muta/Ling while expanding, we went 2 base 3-hatch muta/queen while expanding. And I guess lings just 'cause we still need to keep out money down. (You could also get some drones to turn in the spores, and make only a small number of lings)
If you're on 4 geysers, 2-gate phoenixes costs (200/35 * 60) 342 gas per minute, leaving you about 100 gas per minute to spend on other things (such as perhaps chronoboosting the phoenixes). 2 gate phoenix thus slows deathball production to the point where we don't need to worry about it any more.
Thus, if you run in with mutas and see a lot of phoenixes, you run them back to your queen ball (your overlords should have been pulled back already in anticipation). Queens are actually really good against Phoenixes, so they can defend pretty well. Thus, the worst case scenario is that you've shut down his death ball production long enough to get your third up, while forcing him into a lot of phoenixes he doesn't have a lot of use for. You also have a lot of queens, which are more cost effective money-wise (and certainly supply-wise) than the lings you would normally have gotten. From here, play as normal. Try to get any use you can out of your Mutas until you suicide them to free up supply. You haven't really gotten ahead, but you haven't really gotten behind either, and you've stopped the big scary build.
I know I'm only platinum and not worthy of an opinion, but I see so reason to go Muta and a shitton of lings (i.e., a map control build) against an opponent who is turtling (and thus gave us map control for free). Muta/Queen/Medium Lings, or even Muta/Queen/Static Defense/Small lings, seems a much better build against 2 gate phoenix or the death ball (and he has to do one or the other; he can't do both at once).
What's wrong with this theory?
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The only success I've had against this build is sniping colloxen with corrputors and moving in with hydras once they are all dead. It's terribly inefficient but I'm normally ahead by quite a few bases. I feel this too could be dealt with by adjusting towards a more stalker heavy army.
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I really don't see the problem. Roach/hydra/corruptor will kill plenty of units in the intial fight. The key is get a surround. You won't win the battle, but with a surround, you will kill units.
Massing corruptors is also not a terrible idea. I might advocate a mass muta/corruptor build. Muta would tank some damage for the corruptors while being slightly cheaper, able to shoot ground, and add bounce, while the corruptors would help the muta deal with any phoenix.
The point is -- the Protoss is pretty much stuck on two bases and will likely never be able to take a third. The Zerg should have 4-5 bases including a gold. Every unit you kill at this point is worth so much more than any units you lose. Once you kill all the void rays and collosus, the game is over -- the protoss will not be able to replace all the high tech units off of his initial two bases. Any tech structures, probes or units you pick off during harassment will increase your odds tremendously even if you lose unis -- again -- you should have a much better economy than the protoss, so losing units is not a big deal.
I play Protoss and I was probably doing this before it was popular. However, I started getting rolled just by a superior macro zerg. You just can't afford to sit in your base and let the zerg expand 5 times, while creeping up the entire map.
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Protoss only has 3 production (2 star , 1 robo) facilities with this build ... Overseers contaminate would slow down this build soooo much ... of course you would definitely need spire tech... but with the limited amount of stalkers with this build corrupter can pretty much fly inside the Toss Base and keep the Vray numbers low also if they try to go phoenix to stop the overseers 1. they are wasting build time in there Stargate (less Vrays) 2 you have corrupter to counter the phoenix ... Overseers are the key to any strong build off of only a few production facilities ... plus they help scout so if the toss does tech switch to heavy stalker or something you will have scouted it early
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On February 18 2011 12:02 s031720 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 08:57 xbankx wrote:On February 18 2011 08:51 s031720 wrote:On February 18 2011 02:21 clickrush wrote:
Did anyone try a 2base hydra timing attack with speedling reinforcements? Iam not sure the doublestarport voidray colossus build can hold this if you stop droneing and just flood with speedlings.
this is allready a established response to some of the blinkstalker timings.
artosis and Idra didnt mention this so I wonder. I know for certain this works, because thats what I do. Its even more effective vs this build than most other starport-builds so try it out. Many protoss players seems to recomend going Muta, but that dosent work at all for me. I wonder what side they are on... Most toss recommend muta because that is what we feel our build is weak to. I used this enough times(mostly on shakura since it is easy to hold second. I folded to a lot of mass mtua play because I scouted muta too late or a good roach timing is powerful. It is true that this build start with void ray but it is just really hard to stop like 12-16 roaches then mass reinforce ling. Cause 1-2 void with like 5 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry is not gonna hold 15 roaches and like 30-40 lings. Normally that leaves me with no expo and half the amount of probes to drones. Yeah, I think we can agree on that the Z answer to this build is a timing more than a composition thing. Wheter it is hydra, roach or muta depends on several things, map for one (wouldnt go hydra timing on shakura for instance). As things becomes more refined some timings may become more or less effective or viable. Its definately not unbeatable, but if it gets up uninterrupted its very powerful. I think that is kind of a consensus we all could agree on.
Both units/composition is important. Timing attacks are designed to stop the build. This is no different for toss's 6 gate timing against 2 base muta/ling. Of course a lot of build if left uninterrupted is strong. I mean if you leave zerg uninterrupted he will have double your harvesters in like 5 min. The key is to find answers/unit composition/timing instead of calling it imba. I mean 6 gate timnig wasnt discovered in a day. It took like 1-2 month to perfect. As I said this build is strong, but is definitely not unstoppable. I used it and lost to people around my level. They key is really scouting. Because the toss is heavly invested in 2 base high tech unit play. There is no reason to sac 5-6 ovie to know what his unit composition/unit structure is. Unlike the 3 base version of the build, this is an all in. But it is an all in that takes like 25 mins to carry out. That is a lot of time for zerg to adapt.
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EPT
