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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 18 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 21:05 Ribbon wrote:On February 18 2011 20:36 freetgy wrote:On February 18 2011 20:26 Mosin wrote:
2. Nexus -> stargate opening will get you 200 supply unit of deathball in 16 min mark. Zerg doesn't really have time windows to tech jump from this to that. i would really like if anyone could provide such a replay that shows maxxed Colossus/Voidray Army at the 16min. mark. ty When MC goes Forge FE, the nexus finishes at 5 minutes, at which point he has 100 gas. Then he starts the tech Gateway - 65 seconds (6:05) Cybercore - 50 seconds (6:55) Robotics Facility - 65 Seconds (8:00) Robotics Bay - 65 Seconds (9:05) First Colossus = 75 Seconds (10:20) Second Colossus = 75 Seconds (11:35) Third Colossus = 75 Seconds (12:50) Fourth Colossus = 75 Seconds (14:05) Final Colossus = 75 Seconds (15:20). So I can see why people might get believe that. The reason it's wrong to think that, is that you can't support building a Colossus and 2 VRs at the same time. Even assuming you're spending your Chrono Boost elsewhere, Colos cost 160 gas a minute (250/75 * 60), and 2 gate VRs cost 300 gpm. That's a total of 460 gas per minute. According to Liquipedia, you only get 456 gas per minute off 2 base. So that's just more gas then you have (and switching to Phoenix consumes more gpm). So you can't maintain perfect production off two stargate robo, and you can't be chronoboosting that out. And you certainly can't be getting 2 VRs and a Colo while getting, say, Thermal Lance. No matter how good your macro is, things are gonna idle. This also means, incidentally, that you can't go 2 gate Phoenix and still produce Colossi. Also, no one commented on my Muta/Queen idea, and that makes me ;_; 1. 456 gas per minute isnt much lower than 460 gas per minute 2. The Protoss does not start at zero gas, but at a stockpile of X when he starts to produce Colossi. If you take these two together you can support that production ... according to your numbers you only need (roughly) 40 extra gas to have enough for the ten minutes of production until your last Colossus is out.
You wouldn't have a huge stockpile, and I figured you'd spend it on Thermal Lance. You would not have an additional molecule of vespene for Stalkers, Sentries, upgrades, or chrono-boosting things besides Zealots or Probes.
Note, by the way, that that your Cyber-core finishes at 6:55, and you Colo production starts at 9:05. That gives you two minutes and ten seconds to get a robo bay, robo facility, two stargates, warp gate upgrade, an observer (or phoenix) and any stalkers or sentries you were planning on making today.
What if the Zerg attacks with roaches at the 8 or 9 minute mark? How do you intend to survive even a moderately sized attack, when you're teching that hard?
On February 18 2011 21:42 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 21:05 Ribbon wrote:On February 18 2011 20:36 freetgy wrote:On February 18 2011 20:26 Mosin wrote:
2. Nexus -> stargate opening will get you 200 supply unit of deathball in 16 min mark. Zerg doesn't really have time windows to tech jump from this to that. i would really like if anyone could provide such a replay that shows maxxed Colossus/Voidray Army at the 16min. mark. ty When MC goes Forge FE, the nexus finishes at 5 minutes, at which point he has 100 gas. Then he starts the tech Gateway - 65 seconds (6:05) Cybercore - 50 seconds (6:55) Robotics Facility - 65 Seconds (8:00) Robotics Bay - 65 Seconds (9:05) First Colossus = 75 Seconds (10:20) Second Colossus = 75 Seconds (11:35) Third Colossus = 75 Seconds (12:50) Fourth Colossus = 75 Seconds (14:05) Final Colossus = 75 Seconds (15:20). So I can see why people might get believe that. The reason it's wrong to think that, is that you can't support building a Colossus and 2 VRs at the same time. Even assuming you're spending your Chrono Boost elsewhere, Colos cost 160 gas a minute (250/75 * 60), and 2 gate VRs cost 300 gpm. That's a total of 460 gas per minute. According to Liquipedia, you only get 456 gas per minute off 2 base. So that's just more gas then you have (and switching to Phoenix consumes more gpm). So you can't maintain perfect production off two stargate robo, and you can't be chronoboosting that out. And you certainly can't be getting 2 VRs and a Colo while getting, say, Thermal Lance. No matter how good your macro is, things are gonna idle. This also means, incidentally, that you can't go 2 gate Phoenix and still produce Colossi. Also, no one commented on my Muta/Queen idea, and that makes me ;_; problem with muta queen is that pheonix and chase+kill a lot of muta before they retreive back to queen. I think best option is still muta corruptor.
I think the point of Muta-Queen is to have the Queens below the Mutalisks adding more firepower while being able to transfuse the Mutas. This isnt pretty immobile and the Protoss might be tempted to hunt the Queens with ground forces.
A. What ground forces? Even with 3 hatches pumping queens, a Muta-ing Zerg will still have minerals up the wazoo to blow on lings, and protoss has next to no gas for stalkers and sentries. .
B. The idea wasn't "Attack with Muta/Queen to kill". It was "If the protoss sees mutas, he'll go Phoenix (thus meaning he can't go Deathball). Since Zerg has more minerals than he knows what to do with, he might as well get queens and some lings instead of no queens and many lings. If the Protoss stays committed to the deathball, Mutas kill it easily (especially in small VR numbers). In the Protoss gets Phoenixes, you have a ton of queens, so he can't do a lot with them and you can get a third easily to go whatever you want. 2 gate Phoenix can't kill you, and map control is not a useful thing toi have if you're turtling. The queens, in other words, are for safety in case the protoss counters mutas with phoenix.
It also looks like a Zerg who spots a Forge FE is going to want to suicide an overlord into the main at around the 7 minute mark (right when after the core finishes). If he sees gates starting, he knows it's a 6-gate push in time to prepare. If he doesn't, he knows it's 2 gate phoenix or a deathball. This is a useful timing to know, because it means we can remove "But what if the protoss is doing a six gate push?!" from our list of fears. We also are guaranteed a good scout, because protoss will have only just started his sentry (if he makes a stalker and has 1 zealot and one stalker at 7:30, just fucking kill him), so it'll take a long time for our overlord to die unless we fly it into a cannon that he build in his main for some reason.
So, our build order:
- Quick expo, either 14 hatch or speedling expo, depending on what we think is best.
- Scout FE. Check for a cannon rush or proxy pylons and drone like a mofo until around 6:45.
- Send in an overlord at 7, when his core is finishing.
- See gates? Prep for 6 gate push.
- See signs of death ball? Throw down a macro hatch, tech to mutas, and make muta/queen/ling. Get a spore crawler or two, which helps against Phoenixes (or DTs, incidentally). Start pulling overlords in to safety.
-Muta harass!
- VR/Colossus/Few stalkers? Pump moar mutas and just fucking kill him. Make "Awwww Yeeeeaaaahhhh!" face.
- Protoss responded with phoenixes? Either kill what you can (if you think your mutas are doomed anyway, might as well try to snipe a colo or two) or retreat to safety of queens and take a quick third while getting corrupters or whatever your late game plan is. Drop a lot of tumors to spread creep fast.
(There's also the possibility of getting a spire and making 6-8 corrupters, like JulyZerg did in the GSTL, and beat the VRs just by have more corrupters, or the phoenixes just by having corrupters. Don't know how much I like that, though I imagine JulyZerg knows more than I do).
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On February 18 2011 22:26 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 18:17 Manimal_pro wrote:
this is true and there is a problem with the void ray collo combo, but what i really hate about protoss is the archon toilet. Blizzard please nerf the mothership lmao yea cuz the mothership wasn't nerfed enough already (most fuckin nerfed unit in the game). Last time people actually found a use for it (surrounding vortex with ffs) it was promptly nerfed. I swear, if they do it again...
I'm not saying it should be nerfed but it is still insanely powerful. The only reason it isn't used more is because the game hasn't been figured out enough to have very many "late games" on top of smaller maps, we are already seeing way more than we did two months ago and I expect this to continue to increase especially on the GSL maps.
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On February 18 2011 15:05 EndoGaming wrote:
Protoss only has 3 production (2 star , 1 robo) facilities with this build ... Overseers contaminate would slow down this build soooo much ... of course you would definitely need spire tech... but with the limited amount of stalkers with this build corrupter can pretty much fly inside the Toss Base and keep the Vray numbers low also if they try to go phoenix to stop the overseers 1. they are wasting build time in there Stargate (less Vrays) 2 you have corrupter to counter the phoenix ... Overseers are the key to any strong build off of only a few production facilities ... plus they help scout so if the toss does tech switch to heavy stalker or something you will have scouted it early
This is thinking in the good direction. Maybe a combination of Overseers and mutas would be great. Idra an Artosis were talking about the Protos being the reactor in this situation and they need scouting information for balancing there Voids/colosi/gateway units. Try keeping P in the dark by killing observers and Z can do the scouting, contaminate and maybe picking of some robo or stargate units.
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I don't see how you can think about getting expensive overseers near a protoss that has stargates. scouting is very difficult already since all your overlords are cleared, you need to spend every inch of gas on corruptors in the futile attempt to kill some of his army, how can you dedicate hundreds of precious gas to overseers that will die after pooping once?
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I was always under the impression that SC2 races were designed to be superior vs one race, and weak to the other - e.g. Terran weak vs Zerg, but strong against Protoss, Zerg strong vs T but weak vs P, Protoss strong vs Z but weak against T. As a zerg ZvP has always been the hardest matchup for me, the main reason being that zerg units are so weak compared to protoss. I never had any problems at all vs. Terran. Of course a good terran can still take a game off me, but all in all I seem to win more vs Terran than i lose. Vs. protoss it always felt like an uphill battle for me.
Now i may be completely wrong on this, but I dont think perfect balance between the 3 races can be accomplished at all. The design of the game simply wont allow for it, they would have to streamline all 3 races to accomplish that, and then every game would be just as boring as the mirror matchups.
If this build turns out to be unstoppable then of course it needs to be adressed. Bringing colossi into line might not be the worst idea. Maybe tune down their hit points so they are more vulnerable to air? The amount of damage a single colossi can put out in a fight is simply unreal, and it completely snowballs out of control once you get 3+ of them. The main problem for me right now is, that by the time I have taken care of his colossi, my ground army has already vaporized. Maybe colossi should have to charge up their death rays first, like void rays.
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So the thing I have the most problem with in this build is that even when I get an army that I think should be able to deal with this a little, it's so hard to focus fire the colossus or get corruption off on them because the ball is packed so tight that they're heavily blocked by void rays visually? Any tips on how to control the corruptors to focus fire the colossus?
Also one the of the maps I've having the most trouble against this is Steppes, and not just because of early game stuff, but also because even when I get pretty far ahead economically I have a hard time denying a 3rd because you have to push uphill through a relatively small choke (at least for that point in the game).
If anybody has suggestions on how to deal with these specific issues it would be greatly appreciated.
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On February 19 2011 03:20 MrBadMan wrote:
Now i may be completely wrong on this, but I dont think perfect balance between the 3 races can be accomplished at all. The design of the game simply wont allow for it, they would have to streamline all 3 races to accomplish that, and then every game would be just as boring as the mirror matchups.
It's true! No one's ever made a game with three distinct and wildly varied races that was generally agreed to be balanced at a pro level before! What made Starcraft 2 think it was possible?!
On February 19 2011 03:30 MoreFaSho wrote:
So the thing I have the most problem with in this build is that even when I get an army that I think should be able to deal with this a little, it's so hard to focus fire the colossus or get corruption off on them because the ball is packed so tight that they're heavily blocked by void rays visually? Any tips on how to control the corruptors to focus fire the colossus?
Also one the of the maps I've having the most trouble against this is Steppes, and not just because of early game stuff, but also because even when I get pretty far ahead economically I have a hard time denying a 3rd because you have to push uphill through a relatively small choke (at least for that point in the game).
If anybody has suggestions on how to deal with these specific issues it would be greatly appreciated.
It seems like the only way to deal with it it to prevent it. Once he's at 200/200 at can't tech switch, a bazillion mutas eats the ball pretty hard, but that's not as useful in practice as it is in theory.
We're still trying to solve it, and I think we're getting close. Some kind of timing attack seems to be the key. I'm starting to think a muta attack with queens as a mineral dump (in case of phoenix) is pretty strong, and the timings seem to work out pretty well for it on paper (and no one's gone "but what if protoss does X?!" yet), but even theorycraft with a lot of math, timings, build variations, reasonable assumptions about when you can scout the build and thus start reacting to it knowing protoss isn't doing X other thing, etc. is still simply theorycraft until we see some diamond-to-pro level players try it out in practice.
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I feel as though an increased hydra range could solve a lot of the "imbalance" issues with collosi right now, perhaps a range upgrade that would be closer to the rediculous(and always researched) thermal lance... Roach hydra balls could then be more effective if your hydras were not having to take as much splash initially...
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Zerg needs Scourge.
Expendable, yet quickly replenish-able.
Are made to die, so voids cannot charge on them.
Very mobile (zerg doesn't seem to exhibit this quality enough in current form).
Adds more variety to zerg play.
Makes zerg feel more.... zergy. More swarm like because there are more units at play and these units are expendable rather than expensive and heavy (corrupter).
My two cents. Scourge better be in HotS
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It is 1-1 Whitera vs Lalush for Millenium cup day 2. The beast from the east goes for colo/voidray and + Show Spoiler +Lalush pwns whitera. colo voidray didn't seem as strong to me. It is easy to execute tough.
edit: it was streamed on gl hf.tv
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More Replays
Motion v Pakman: Standard roach/hydra/corrupter into broodlords. I've found that broods do surprisingly well against a void/collo build. Brood range forces the voids to overextend and get decimated by the hydras/queens in the back. Good transfuses in this game too.
+ Show Spoiler +This game isn't at all unlike last nights GCPL game between TT1 and Haypro. What lost Haypro the game was not having the brood tech so he couldn't do anything with his corrupters once he managed to kill the collosus/coids.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140540-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis#rd:units
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Is it a coincidence that the word VoidrAy has idrA in it? and collosus almost sounds like artosis? i think not
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On February 19 2011 09:50 canavarr wrote:
Is it a coincidence that the word VoidrAy has idrA in it? and collosus almost sounds like artosis? i think not
You my sir are awesome. I've had people do this build to me but had no problem holding it off with mass armor upgraded corruptors. Reducing the base damage of stalkers/voids makes them live longer, and they are cost effective as well. I was just playing zerg on ladder, not training them though.
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Despite all the theory crafting, I have yet to see a game beyond the GTSL game in which this was actually pulled off successfully by the Protoss player, with Zerg not being able to do anything despite playing well and making the appropriate counters. In fact, the only game where I've seen a pro player lose to this build was Dimaga vs. White-Ra when Dimaga made too many corrupters and had like 20 of them leftover, after which White-Ra just ran him over with stalkers.
Either EU/US Protoss players don't understand the build, or EU/US Zerg players have found ways to counter it. From watching tournaments it seems that the standard stalker sentry colossi composition and the fast blink stalker strategy are more effective than this build, and produce games that look far more one-sided.
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On February 19 2011 06:38 Offhand wrote:More ReplaysMotion v Pakman: Standard roach/hydra/corrupter into broodlords. I've found that broods do surprisingly well against a void/collo build. Brood range forces the voids to overextend and get decimated by the hydras/queens in the back. Good transfuses in this game too. + Show Spoiler +This game isn't at all unlike last nights GCPL game between TT1 and Haypro. What lost Haypro the game was not having the brood tech so he couldn't do anything with his corrupters once he managed to kill the collosus/coids.
Ok, I've watched the replay, and it's
First of all, it's not a 2 base colossus+ voids build.
The protoss get his second base at the 11min mark after making a 1 base void opening. He did absolutely no damage with his 1 base play, there were some flaw like 4 probes at gas until he gets his probes killed by a zergling run by.
Later in the game, he eventually get a 200 food void ray colossus, but it's way later than it should be (25 min mark). At this point he is behind in upgrades, he has no clue of what the zerg is doing etc.
The zerg did masses queens, hydra broodlord.
The protoss didn't scout it, didn't react, got his 200 food army with too many colossus, 8 sentries that did nothing. He a-move his colossus so that they wasted their dps on broodlings instead of 1 shooting the pack of hydra, he microed his voids rays so that they get just above the hydra & queens.
There are so many reasons the protoss lost that game. But he could actually have won it easily by making a mothershp. This late in the game there is no excuse not having one against queens & broodlords.
With 1 mothership instead of the 8 sentries that did nothing, the battle would have been 1 sided in favor of the protoss. He could have sniped the overseers and get an easy win with the cloak, or simply vortex the ground army for a colossus toilet.
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On February 19 2011 10:36 Azarkon wrote:
Despite all the theory crafting, I have yet to see a game beyond the GTSL game in which this was actually pulled off successfully by the Protoss player, with Zerg not being able to do anything despite playing well and making the appropriate counters. In fact, the only game where I've seen a pro player lose to this build was Dimaga vs. White-Ra when Dimaga made too many corrupters and had like 20 of them leftover, after which White-Ra just ran him over with stalkers.
having too many corruptors is exactly the problem; if you have too many or too few you die, and you have no way to know how many to make while the P can choose his composition after seeing what you are doing. this is what they were saying in the op. This in general is due to the poor design of the MU at the moment where there is one unit that is absolutely essential, and in large numbers, in case opponent does X, and completely useless if he does Y instead.
And apart from that, if it gets to 200/200 it is unstoppable no matter your comp.
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On February 18 2011 22:26 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 18:17 Manimal_pro wrote:
this is true and there is a problem with the void ray collo combo, but what i really hate about protoss is the archon toilet. Blizzard please nerf the mothership lmao yea cuz the mothership wasn't nerfed enough already (most fuckin nerfed unit in the game). Last time people actually found a use for it (surrounding vortex with ffs) it was promptly nerfed. I swear, if they do it again...
i agree its not like the archon toilet is a win more move.
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Hmm hmm. I finally met someone who was really good who made this on ladder today and I dunno tbh. It felt like if I let him get into my base I was pretty much dead since his Voids got charged on buildings really easily and then they just rape Everything so I think the best counter to this is probably some really sneake drops or nyduses. Havent tested myself however.
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I've been using this build a LOT since i saw the video and I have rolled a LOT of people with it. But I am starting to notice a trend. I don't win every match and the ones I lose ... this is what happens. They overbuild corruptors and even then I usually win with 4-5 voids left and a couple collossi. They remax with corruptors again and finally clean out the rest of my army with corruptors and begin to go broodlords.
Now if I was able to secure a 3rd fairly early like at around 120-140 food, I can go stalkers and kill the corruptors during this transition to broodlords. But if zerg prevented me from getting a third until after 150... I usually don't have enough stalkers to do enough damage before the broodlords come in. He just straight outmacros me at this point because he has 5+ bases. Stalkers can kill broodlords but they can go roaches also. So it goes back and forth for a bit and I get outmacroed in the end.
Now if I get the 3rd earlier at like 120 food... then when he remaxes with corruptors and kills the deathball finally, I can seize a fourth and rebuild the deathball, this time with a lot more stalkers and I win.
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On February 19 2011 10:36 Azarkon wrote:
Despite all the theory crafting, I have yet to see a game beyond the GTSL game in which this was actually pulled off successfully by the Protoss player, with Zerg not being able to do anything despite playing well and making the appropriate counters. In fact, the only game where I've seen a pro player lose to this build was Dimaga vs. White-Ra when Dimaga made too many corrupters and had like 20 of them leftover, after which White-Ra just ran him over with stalkers.
Either EU/US Protoss players don't understand the build, or EU/US Zerg players have found ways to counter it. From watching tournaments it seems that the standard stalker sentry colossi composition and the fast blink stalker strategy are more effective than this build, and produce games that look far more one-sided.
Ive seen both MrBitter and Destiny play against this strat. They both lost.
It IS a very powerful P composition, there is no doubt about it, and its definately NOT theorycrafting wherever you got that idea.
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EPT
