EPTForcing a protoss to tech switch is more costly and time consuming for him than for you.
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 41
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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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Xain
Canada94 Posts
Forcing a protoss to tech switch is more costly and time consuming for him than for you. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote: But you saying it's not overpowered, means it's not, and Idra is a crap player. LOL Idra is a fantastic player provided you don't attack him. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:44 Treemonkeys wrote: Still waiting for those replays. They were posted earlier in the thread and referenced several times. Please read threads before commenting in them. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:35 Offhand wrote: Idra's incapable of an unbiased opinion. The legions of people crying "ZvP imba!" are the crap players. There's plenty of existing replays of deathball plays losing to mutas. I think I'll start posting them. Oh man please post those replays. I think everyone will be thankful. Just make sure they aren't platinum level.  | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:44 Treemonkeys wrote: Still waiting for those replays. On February 18 2011 04:52 Alpina wrote: Oh man please post those replays. I think everyone will be thankful. Just make sure they aren't platinum level. Please read threads before posting in them. On February 16 2011 18:40 MrRicewife wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 16 2011 14:47 rS.Sinatra wrote: However, since they specifically said they are talking about balance at the very top, lets see some games at the very top. On February 16 2011 14:50 Durp wrote: I'm not sure why Mutalisks aren't considered here. A protoss seeing spire tech may assume corruptor and continue void rays, which are decimated by mutalisks. The investment into phoenixs and/or stalkers required to counter mutalisks would make massing sufficient voidrays/colossi off of two bases almost impossible. Food for thought. On February 16 2011 14:52 Zealot Lord wrote: ... There's no replays no nothing... On February 16 2011 14:55 Beef Noodles wrote: Well, mutalisks are a ton of gas. Also, they are not that great in a straight up fight. They are very useful for harrass or in huge numbers (due to mobility). Randomly switching to mutas with the protoss going stargate seems like a very bad idea. They only have to warp in 1-2 rounds of stalkers and start pheonix, and they will be countering your mutas while using less min/gas. Also their army will perfectly counter yours to a point that zerg econ advantage probably wont keep up  But I'm no pro. 2200 master league On February 16 2011 15:10 Obaten wrote: But isn't is possible to just lead him off the techpath of the voidray/colossus with enough mutas to harass, and kill the stalkers with a good number of lings? On February 16 2011 15:38 OptimusYale wrote: Would mass Muta/corrupter work? I mean as they said,. they're investing so much gas are they really going to have that many stalkers in their army? Mutas to destroy the voids, corrupters to kill the collosi? I mean I'm only a lowly silver level player but thats the only thing I can think of. On February 16 2011 16:48 redux46 wrote: Stalkers will definitely beat mutas cost for cost, but if the protoss has invested most of his gas into collosi and void rays (both weak against mutas) I don't think he'll have the gas left to make a switch in time to more stalkers/phoenixes. I mean, if toss is sitting back on two bases, zerg can be on 3 if not 4, more than enough to get mass mutas. Also, upgraded mutas are not that weak against stalkers in the first place. On February 16 2011 17:03 GQz wrote: I don't understand why people are saying that going mutas is viable against a protoss that has double stargate up. It sounds ridiculous because it is. First off, if you consider resource for resource, a void ray will completely dominate a mutalisk. Only POSSIBLY in large numbers will mutas have any real effect, but you're already spending so much more than him. That's not even considering the possibility that he mixes a few phoenixes in there and the stalkers from his gateway army aren't firing at you the whole time. Lol... so this is the quality of Teamliquid.net now, huh? Don't bother thinking or providing evidence. Don't even bother reading a thread before posting - just type... I guess I will quote myself and repost, with some extra information. TL;DR You should because this post answers a ton of questions; this post also provides REPLAYS of losing and winning against this alleged 'deathball' strategy. These first two replays are examples with vortex, the last 3 with dimaga and white-ra are without vortex. Here is a replay of the infamous 'deathball': http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140198-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns In this replay, it shows a decent macro game heading into the infamous death ball. This is without any mutalisk harass, just a nice decent macro game where protoss pushes around zerg until the heavy units come in. I think zerg thought he could outmacro protoss by expanding many times - in the end, that unit composition is EXTREMELY difficult to kill. Something to note: the mothership is the cherry on top that makes this 'unbeatable', and without the vortex, I think zerg, with practice and defining build orders, can beat this build, like dimaga displayed on scrap station. Here is a replay of beautiful mutalisk harass, stopping the build dead in its tracks: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140199-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis In this replay, the mutalisk timing was very good and forced protoss to build stalkers, or else risk being taken over with mutalisks. I believe Liquid'Tyler was commenting on this - not this specific replay - but about mutalisk harass, and with practice, 'unbeatable' builds can quickly fall apart. Again, something to note: the mothership unit looks like a unit that can hard counter any army, just by using the vortex spell. I've seen the mothership drop a vortex on all races, all unit compositions, and then poop their own colossus, archons, and even voidrays into the vortex - coming out without losing a unit, while decimating whatever was in that vortex. It would be nice if someone who is at least master or understands the game to comment on the mothership vortex spell, especially after watching the second replay. I understand the vortex was already modified by Blizzard once because of the FF glitch ( for those who don't know - before a patch, toss could FF around a vortex and 1 colossus would roast anything inside when they popped out). Well - it seems that with certain units, this can still happen - instead of FF you just shove all your crap in their with the zerg units. I really like the vortex and I don't want it to go away, but it would be nice to hear more about it, especially since the mothership is a common unit in top level play. Good post. Here are the replays for those games: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/43248 Dimaga loses over committing corrupter. http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/43247 Dimaga owning the alleged 'Death Ball' http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/43246 Regular game, irrelevant to discussion p.s. the bold text is to 'pop out' the important information, as I know it is a chore to read large bodies of text; I don't mean to use bold text in bm in anyway. | ||
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Starcraftmazter
Australia71 Posts
"Hey Artosis, remember that ONE GUY in GSTL who lost to that wacky colossi/void ray build, why don't we QQ about that?" "Phoenix Colossi? Not hard at all because of <insert stupid uninformed theorycrafting here>" "Why is PvT so strong? Because people don't use the most useless units in TvP (ie. mech) and they are actually good because of <insert stupuid uninformed theorycrafting here>". "Once a protoss gets a lot of colossi it's impossible! Terrans have learned to deny protoss that opportunity, but we zergs are too high class to have to do that, thus it must be imbalanced!" "Zomg 20 void rays OP! Why should the zerg have to worry about not letting protoss get a death ball of units like terran? No, we just want to sit back and win!". "Even though terran should diversify their play into useless mech, zerg should never do anything except roach hydra corruptor!" *Ignore a huge timing window when you can do army swaps with the protoss and harass them while you macro up, not allowing them to get a death ball of units* "Conclusion: Protoss must be OP! Buff zerg! Buff zerg!" *evil laugh*. With every one of these videos, I am liking Artosis less and less  | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
I think you are too single minded into idra's opinion. Think about it this way. You start going mutas once he start making the deathball(pretty obvious if you see void ray+colossus on 2 base with lots of zealots). Now assume toss scouts muta, he stops void ray and go pheonix. Once you scout pheonixs you can easily switch to corruptors. All this time you can of course expo+drone because toss is scared to move out due to low unit count(since tech+high cost units=low number units) Also you can throw in baneling nest+roach warren against the mass zealots. Of course Toss can start seeing your corruptors and switch back to void rays. You can against switch back to mutas. In the end I see the zerg being slightly ahead due to ability to take bases versus an 2 base all in. Of course you need to scout but so does toss. I dont think the mind set that oh "if I muta he will switch to pheonix" that doesn't mean you can't "oh he went pheonix, I should get corruptors". Both corruptors and mutas are not bad versus colossus. Corruptors counter pheonixs and muta counter void ray just like void ray counter corruptor and pheonix counter muta air battle should be fairly even in the end. Except zealots don't shot up and toss is 2 base all in. Zerg is not locked into muta once he starts in fact zerg is less locked to a unit composition compared to all other race because it only requires a tech tree and no actually specific unit producing building. The thing that annoy me a bit is that zerg always assume toss to have perfect scouting+perfect response yet expect the zerg to continue with what it is doing. That is not the case. Toss players arent perfect so we can't always scout everything and respond everything correctly. If you snipe the first obs of this build it is very costly for toss to make another one. Obs are very gas heavy and takes out robo time. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:52 Starcraftmazter wrote: "Idra, they are hating on us for QQing about terran all the time. What can we do?" "Hey Artosis, remember that ONE GUY in GSTL who lost to that wacky colossi/void ray build, why don't we QQ about that?" You understand that Colossi/Void ray is not wacky at all and is very very common atm in PvZ? Seems you are stating things as fact that you don't know much about. Seems most of your post just follows these false assumptions. | ||
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Xain
Canada94 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:52 Starcraftmazter wrote: "Idra, they are hating on us for QQing about terran all the time. What can we do?" "Hey Artosis, remember that ONE GUY in GSTL who lost to that wacky colossi/void ray build, why don't we QQ about that?" "Phoenix Colossi? Not hard at all because of <insert stupid uninformed theorycrafting here>" "Why is PvT so strong? Because people don't use the most useless units in TvP (ie. mech) and they are actually good because of <insert stupuid uninformed theorycrafting here>". "Once a protoss gets a lot of colossi it's impossible! Terrans have learned to deny protoss that opportunity, but we zergs are too high class to have to do that, thus it must be imbalanced!" "Zomg 20 void rays OP! Why should the zerg have to worry about not letting protoss get a death ball of units like terran? No, we just want to sit back and win!". "Even though terran should diversify their play into useless mech, zerg should never do anything except roach hydra corruptor!" *Ignore a huge timing window when you can do army swaps with the protoss and harass them while you macro up, not allowing them to get a death ball of units* "Conclusion: Protoss must be OP! Buff zerg! Buff zerg!" *evil laugh*. With every one of these videos, I am liking Artosis less and less Do you actually think you make a point with a sarcasm/parody-based argumentation? You're the one who comes out looking childish, not Artosis. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:52 Starcraftmazter wrote: "Idra, they are hating on us for QQing about terran all the time. What can we do?" "Hey Artosis, remember that ONE GUY in GSTL who lost to that wacky colossi/void ray build, why don't we QQ about that?" "Phoenix Colossi? Not hard at all because of <insert stupid uninformed theorycrafting here>" "Why is PvT so strong? Because people don't use the most useless units in TvP (ie. mech) and they are actually good because of <insert stupuid uninformed theorycrafting here>". "Once a protoss gets a lot of colossi it's impossible! Terrans have learned to deny protoss that opportunity, but we zergs are too high class to have to do that, thus it must be imbalanced!" "Zomg 20 void rays OP! Why should the zerg have to worry about not letting protoss get a death ball of units like terran? No, we just want to sit back and win!". "Even though terran should diversify their play into useless mech, zerg should never do anything except roach hydra corruptor!" *Ignore a huge timing window when you can do army swaps with the protoss and harass them while you macro up, not allowing them to get a death ball of units* "Conclusion: Protoss must be OP! Buff zerg! Buff zerg!" *evil laugh*. With every one of these videos, I am liking Artosis less and less This is an exceedingly common and powerful build. I don't know where your "one guy" argument is coming from. This was unnecessary and made you look somewhat foolish. | ||
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Starcraftmazter
Australia71 Posts
I guarantee all the top teams in korea have figured out 10 ways to deal with it. How about you deal with it. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:02 Barca wrote: Dear Moderator who warned me (Zelniq most likely), "Your ignorant post implies that you did not watch the entire video, which you should probably do before you denounce their argument." If you look at the time from which the thread was posted and the time of my comment (9:07-9:39 ), comparing the two you will realize that my comment logically comes after watching the 30 minutes video. And yes, I did watch the whole video. Also, my comment clearly stems from what they were saying. They were not looking at all the counters, just naming a few that failed in their eyes. They even mentioned Zelniq's counter, which I've had done to me and stopped my "deathball" pretty coldly. But then they go on to say how not viable it is since a Protoss can counter it - RTS fail? I could name off a counter to the Protosses counter to the Zerg's counter, but that would get redundant. I do not appreciate being warned for disagreeing with an opinion and pointing out the flaws of an argument. Sincerely, Barca There's nothing logically predicated about your comment being posted a half hour after the video was put up. Don't use big words like an idiot. | ||
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Mr.Minionman
United States164 Posts
There is no reason to focus solely on corrupters/Mutas, and i think that if the zerg creates a more balanced composition, which metagame-wise, has not been their forte, they can handle VR/Collosi comps more efficiently. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On February 18 2011 03:35 MorroW wrote: they scout with a phoenix and if they see muta play then chrono out 6-8 phoenixes and kill it easily Ok, think about it like that: Options: A. You scout the protoss, see colossi, so you build corruptors, then you recognize the deathball and add mutalisks. He can't harass that good with phoenix because you have some corruptors flying around. B. He opens with 1-2 Phoenixes, so you build corruptors to counter them. Then you recognize the deathball opening and add mutalisks. C. He opens phoenixes, you build mutalisks as counter, you die. Obviously noone would choose C, since building mutalisks when phoenixes are out is stupid, you can get corruptors first and add mutalisks later. You might even get a 1:1 ratio (didn't test it, but should work about as good as more mutalisks with fewer corruptors). I don't know why everyone assumes that you open with mutalisks if you scout double starport, opening corruptors is the more obvious choice. The most important thing is that you have mutalisks to clean up the weak ground army after you took care of the void rays, phoenixes and colossi. You might even be able to just fill up the lost supply with roach/hydra, though i think mutalisks are still very important if the enemy is not very heavy on stalkers (which cost a lot of gas, so he most likely won't). | ||
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jmack
Canada285 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:02 Barca wrote: Dear Moderator who warned me (Zelniq most likely), "Your ignorant post implies that you did not watch the entire video, which you should probably do before you denounce their argument." If you look at the time from which the thread was posted and the time of my comment (9:07-9:39 ), comparing the two you will realize that my comment logically comes after watching the 30 minutes video. And yes, I did watch the whole video. Also, my comment clearly stems from what they were saying. They were not looking at all the counters, just naming a few that failed in their eyes. They even mentioned Zelniq's counter, which I've had done to me and stopped my "deathball" pretty coldly. But then they go on to say how not viable it is since a Protoss can counter it - RTS fail? I could name off a counter to the Protosses counter to the Zerg's counter, but that would get redundant. I do not appreciate being warned for disagreeing with an opinion and pointing out the flaws of an argument. Sincerely, Barca On February 18 2011 06:19 PH wrote: There's nothing logically predicated about your comment being posted a half hour after the video was put up. Don't use big words like an idiot. Don't knit pick and make useless criticisms in order to ignore a valid post. It forfeits your credibility if you're unwilling to allow the semantic miss use of one word that's significance in the post is pretty irrelevant. Also, I haven't watched the video, but my personal comment on it is why do this now? I mean in relation to Barcas comment, isn't it way to soon to start tossing around a word like imbalanced? It implies that something is so broken it needs to be outright removed; premature much? Maybe there are some things that are in fact that broken, and there will always be things that are "hard" to deal with. Still we have so little data and builds/combinations/strategies changing almost daily can we not wait until the metagame for each matchup solidifies? Come on everyone, stop trying to get internet famous and just try and be creative, use some creative problem solving. Please. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
If army A cost 10x more then army B, then why is there an issue with army A completely Obliterating Army B? | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On February 18 2011 07:10 AGIANTSMURF wrote: I dont understand whats wrong..... If army A cost 10x more then army B, then why is there an issue with army A completely Obliterating Army B? Of course a maxxed Protoss High Tech Army is gonna rape, a nontech, maxxed T2 Zerg Army | ||
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Starcraftmazter
Australia71 Posts
On February 18 2011 06:19 PH wrote: Don't use big words like an idiot. That makes complete and perfect sense. I think that the only zergs that have trouble with this build are the overly passive ones (like Idra) who rely on victory through taking the whole map, having a big army engagement, re-massing their army and wiping out the opponents. This is but one and only one way to play. If you go hyper aggressive at the start of the mid game, you could defeat it with a plethora of strategies. Those passive zergs should learn to broaden their style and dare I say get out of the comfort zone every now and again and actually try and aggressively counter their opponent's build instead of hoping to win because of building lots of units quickly. | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
On February 17 2011 23:28 Skinnyowllegs wrote: Guardian shields owns mutas, stalkers own mutas, and mass voidrays actually own mutas when they get fully charged. So please dont state your fail theories as fact when u dont know shit, kay? Pure math says no. Unit tester also says no. So I am thinking it must be some sort of game play reasons. Sure mathematics and stats is not everything but it is helpful in formulating a plan. Things like Guardians Shield and Charge do not last forever or do not come out right away. One way you could fight it is to pick off units one or two at a time then retreat. Mathematically speaking it is impossible for the Protoss to beat this without the right units. I know math so I guess I know some shit. Edit: Hmm after some tests with a buddy one way I noticed that might work was to pick off Sentries with Muta and move in with a ground army. They can't kill your Muta fast enough. | ||
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), the legion of crap player will start blaming that for their losses.
