|
Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 18 2011 01:32 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:24 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 18 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else. Your already quite a bit behind at this point, you just spent a ton of resources into mutas which will die. It is simply setting yourself behind as a way to prevent toss from using a powerful build. Made worse because you now have phoenixes you can't deal with that will be shooting down overlords and denying map vision. Win-win for the toss. Yes, if phoenixes managed to successfully harass you and shut down all map control you have, you've lost. What's your point?You've walked right into an entirely different army comp. Work in a fungal or something, you aren't against void/collo anymore. This thread is turning into "I lose to void/collo because of phoenixes" it's getting silly. It's a two base timing attack, you as a zerg player can take a third. There's nothing about this build that stops you from reacting to the push with mutas as you would have corrupters. You could open and harass with mutas, but that's going to force the game away from void/collo anyway and irrelevant to the thread.
Pretty much. This is just normal zerg whine. I'm not saying the composition is perfectly balanced, per-se, aka, it takes equal skill to use it and counter it. It can be a pretty easy-mode 1a win. But, as with all such strategies, the problem is, that you let him get to that point. And you people suggesting that a protoss goes mass phoenix into void ray/colossi/mothership/archon is just getting ridiculous.
Phoenix play is cute, but going mass phoenix is just asking for a single infestor to completely shut your crap down. And there won't be anything you can do about it. Phoenix are actually ridiculously weak, and would be worthless without their "fire while moving" power. Lock them down with some fungals, and they'll melt to anything that can hit air. Not to mention they can't touch spore crawlers.
|
I tested a little in the unit tester, and mutalisk/corruptors really seem to be the solution.
Ofc i didn't micro and the unit composition makes a difference, though i tried to make a realistic adaption to scouted mutalisks:
Protoss:
7 Phoenixes
14 Void Rays
6 Colossi
19 Zealots
10 Stalkers
Total Cost: 9500 Minerals, 4500 Gas, 150 Supply (2 base = less probes)
Upgrades (not included in costs):
Extended Range for colossi
Zerg:
10 Corruptors
40 Mutalisks
Total Cost: 5500 Minerals, 5000 Gas, 100 Supply (to make it look like a 3/4 base Zerg who has many drones and less supply for units)
Upgrades: None
It's a close fight, but after everything that shoots air is dead, the Zerg still has 10 mutalisks, 9 corruptors. With 50 Mutalisks instead (even less minerals but equal gas) there are 21 surviving mutalisks.
Micro might make a difference, though the Zerg can easily add 1-2 infestors since he should be on 3 bases to prevent any micro.
Going mutalisks does one important job: It ignores half of his army because it just can't shoot back and while it's not that effective against the units that _can_ shoot back, the mutalisks are able to clean up when they defended the threats.
So if you go 3/4 base mutalisks (possible to even use 2 bases just for gas) you force the protoss to totally abandon his build and either build lots of phoenixes, for which roach/hydra/infestor is a good counter while your mutalisks are still useful for harass or he can get a lot more stalkers, which means he won't have that many voidrays or colossi, meaning you can return to roach/hydra/infestor as well.
Ofc this is theorycrafting, but i'm quite sure the theory is valid. I do have to test upgrades and sentries, too, though the Protoss has to upgrade 2 unit types, the Zerg just one (he might even get a second spire).
The biggest problem ofc is still the scouting, though a few sacrificed overlords should be able to scout the enemy in time. You just have to make sure he can't harass you with phoenixes too much, 1-2 infestors on each base should solve that problem and can be gathered for a big battle in time.
|
You realize that micro with phoenix means everything?
|
On February 18 2011 01:54 Morfildur wrote:
I tested a little in the unit tester, and mutalisk/corruptors really seem to be the solution.
Ofc i didn't micro and the unit composition makes a difference, though i tried to make a realistic adaption to scouted mutalisks:
Protoss:
7 Phoenixes
14 Void Rays
6 Colossi
19 Zealots
10 Stalkers
Total Cost: 9500 Minerals, 4500 Gas, 150 Supply (2 base = less probes)
Upgrades (not included in costs):
Extended Range for colossi
Zerg:
10 Corruptors
40 Mutalisks
Total Cost: 5500 Minerals, 5000 Gas, 100 Supply (to make it look like a 3/4 base Zerg who has many drones and less supply for units)
Upgrades: None
It's a close fight, but after everything that shoots air is dead, the Zerg still has 10 mutalisks, 9 corruptors. With 50 Mutalisks instead (even less minerals but equal gas) there are 21 surviving mutalisks.
Micro might make a difference, though the Zerg can easily add 1-2 infestors since he should be on 3 bases to prevent any micro.
Going mutalisks does one important job: It ignores half of his army because it just can't shoot back and while it's not that effective against the units that _can_ shoot back, the mutalisks are able to clean up when they defended the threats.
So if you go 3/4 base mutalisks (possible to even use 2 bases just for gas) you force the protoss to totally abandon his build and either build lots of phoenixes, for which roach/hydra/infestor is a good counter while your mutalisks are still useful for harass or he can get a lot more stalkers, which means he won't have that many voidrays or colossi, meaning you can return to roach/hydra/infestor as well.
Ofc this is theorycrafting, but i'm quite sure the theory is valid. I do have to test upgrades and sentries, too, though the Protoss has to upgrade 2 unit types, the Zerg just one (he might even get a second spire).
The biggest problem ofc is still the scouting, though a few sacrificed overlords should be able to scout the enemy in time. You just have to make sure he can't harass you with phoenixes too much, 1-2 infestors on each base should solve that problem and can be gathered for a big battle in time.
If the protoss doesn't know you have 40 mutas by the time he pushes out he deserves to die. He probably should know since you would be harassing his base with them in which case he would switch to blink stalkers instead of phoenix.
|
On February 18 2011 02:00 shwick wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:54 Morfildur wrote:
I tested a little in the unit tester, and mutalisk/corruptors really seem to be the solution.
Ofc i didn't micro and the unit composition makes a difference, though i tried to make a realistic adaption to scouted mutalisks:
Protoss:
7 Phoenixes
14 Void Rays
6 Colossi
19 Zealots
10 Stalkers
Total Cost: 9500 Minerals, 4500 Gas, 150 Supply (2 base = less probes)
Upgrades (not included in costs):
Extended Range for colossi
Zerg:
10 Corruptors
40 Mutalisks
Total Cost: 5500 Minerals, 5000 Gas, 100 Supply (to make it look like a 3/4 base Zerg who has many drones and less supply for units)
Upgrades: None
It's a close fight, but after everything that shoots air is dead, the Zerg still has 10 mutalisks, 9 corruptors. With 50 Mutalisks instead (even less minerals but equal gas) there are 21 surviving mutalisks.
Micro might make a difference, though the Zerg can easily add 1-2 infestors since he should be on 3 bases to prevent any micro.
Going mutalisks does one important job: It ignores half of his army because it just can't shoot back and while it's not that effective against the units that _can_ shoot back, the mutalisks are able to clean up when they defended the threats.
So if you go 3/4 base mutalisks (possible to even use 2 bases just for gas) you force the protoss to totally abandon his build and either build lots of phoenixes, for which roach/hydra/infestor is a good counter while your mutalisks are still useful for harass or he can get a lot more stalkers, which means he won't have that many voidrays or colossi, meaning you can return to roach/hydra/infestor as well.
Ofc this is theorycrafting, but i'm quite sure the theory is valid. I do have to test upgrades and sentries, too, though the Protoss has to upgrade 2 unit types, the Zerg just one (he might even get a second spire).
The biggest problem ofc is still the scouting, though a few sacrificed overlords should be able to scout the enemy in time. You just have to make sure he can't harass you with phoenixes too much, 1-2 infestors on each base should solve that problem and can be gathered for a big battle in time. If the protoss doesn't know you have 40 mutas by the time he pushes out he deserves to die. He probably should know since you would be harassing his base with them in which case he would switch to blink stalkers instead of phoenix.
Blink stalkers against 40 mutas? You must be joking... Anyway 25 phoenixes rofl stomp 40 mutas w/o micro so this composition should not be problem at all...
Edit: Add guardian shield and 20 phoenixes on a-move might do the job.
|
On February 18 2011 01:46 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:32 Offhand wrote:On February 18 2011 01:24 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 18 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else. Your already quite a bit behind at this point, you just spent a ton of resources into mutas which will die. It is simply setting yourself behind as a way to prevent toss from using a powerful build. Made worse because you now have phoenixes you can't deal with that will be shooting down overlords and denying map vision. Win-win for the toss. Yes, if phoenixes managed to successfully harass you and shut down all map control you have, you've lost. What's your point?You've walked right into an entirely different army comp. Work in a fungal or something, you aren't against void/collo anymore. This thread is turning into "I lose to void/collo because of phoenixes" it's getting silly. It's a two base timing attack, you as a zerg player can take a third. There's nothing about this build that stops you from reacting to the push with mutas as you would have corrupters. You could open and harass with mutas, but that's going to force the game away from void/collo anyway and irrelevant to the thread. Pretty much. This is just normal zerg whine. I'm not saying the composition is perfectly balanced, per-se, aka, it takes equal skill to use it and counter it. It can be a pretty easy-mode 1a win. But, as with all such strategies, the problem is, that you let him get to that point. And you people suggesting that a protoss goes mass phoenix into void ray/colossi/mothership/archon is just getting ridiculous. Phoenix play is cute, but going mass phoenix is just asking for a single infestor to completely shut your crap down. And there won't be anything you can do about it. Phoenix are actually ridiculously weak, and would be worthless without their "fire while moving" power. Lock them down with some fungals, and they'll melt to anything that can hit air. Not to mention they can't touch spore crawlers.
By the time you get infestors out your mutas will be dead and your overlords, queens, and drones will be getting sniped by the phoenix against a good toss. Infestors will shut down the phoenix play but not before it does heavy damage. You're left with nothing to defend yourself while you wait for the infestors to build, which takes a long time, leaving the opportunity for the toss to do as much damage as he can and then cut phoenix production when he sees the infestation pit. Once you have 7-10 phoenix you can still snipe queens, drones, and overlords without taking much more than shield damage from the spore crawlers unless the zerg gets a huge amount of them which isn't good for him either.
Basically if mutas counter this, it forces zerg to go muta against stargate, which is horrible. And you suggest, "oh just go muta, set yourself behind, and then go infestor to clean up the phoenixes after you are already way behind". Nice advice man.
Hydra is the only way to effectively deal with double stargate phoenix yet this build forces you into muta instead, so you're pretty much fucked against a good toss.
|
On February 18 2011 02:00 shwick wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:54 Morfildur wrote:
I tested a little in the unit tester, and mutalisk/corruptors really seem to be the solution.
Ofc i didn't micro and the unit composition makes a difference, though i tried to make a realistic adaption to scouted mutalisks:
Protoss:
7 Phoenixes
14 Void Rays
6 Colossi
19 Zealots
10 Stalkers
Total Cost: 9500 Minerals, 4500 Gas, 150 Supply (2 base = less probes)
Upgrades (not included in costs):
Extended Range for colossi
Zerg:
10 Corruptors
40 Mutalisks
Total Cost: 5500 Minerals, 5000 Gas, 100 Supply (to make it look like a 3/4 base Zerg who has many drones and less supply for units)
Upgrades: None
It's a close fight, but after everything that shoots air is dead, the Zerg still has 10 mutalisks, 9 corruptors. With 50 Mutalisks instead (even less minerals but equal gas) there are 21 surviving mutalisks.
Micro might make a difference, though the Zerg can easily add 1-2 infestors since he should be on 3 bases to prevent any micro.
Going mutalisks does one important job: It ignores half of his army because it just can't shoot back and while it's not that effective against the units that _can_ shoot back, the mutalisks are able to clean up when they defended the threats.
So if you go 3/4 base mutalisks (possible to even use 2 bases just for gas) you force the protoss to totally abandon his build and either build lots of phoenixes, for which roach/hydra/infestor is a good counter while your mutalisks are still useful for harass or he can get a lot more stalkers, which means he won't have that many voidrays or colossi, meaning you can return to roach/hydra/infestor as well.
Ofc this is theorycrafting, but i'm quite sure the theory is valid. I do have to test upgrades and sentries, too, though the Protoss has to upgrade 2 unit types, the Zerg just one (he might even get a second spire).
The biggest problem ofc is still the scouting, though a few sacrificed overlords should be able to scout the enemy in time. You just have to make sure he can't harass you with phoenixes too much, 1-2 infestors on each base should solve that problem and can be gathered for a big battle in time. If the protoss doesn't know you have 40 mutas by the time he pushes out he deserves to die. He probably should know since you would be harassing his base with them in which case he would switch to blink stalkers instead of phoenix.
A muta opening would force the game away from void/collo or at least significantly delay it. Against an already massed deathball the idea is to react with mutas as you would have with corrupters. This is pretty much exactly what Catz did to Minigun in last night's tournament.
On February 18 2011 02:07 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:46 Sm3agol wrote:On February 18 2011 01:32 Offhand wrote:On February 18 2011 01:24 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 18 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else. Your already quite a bit behind at this point, you just spent a ton of resources into mutas which will die. It is simply setting yourself behind as a way to prevent toss from using a powerful build. Made worse because you now have phoenixes you can't deal with that will be shooting down overlords and denying map vision. Win-win for the toss. Yes, if phoenixes managed to successfully harass you and shut down all map control you have, you've lost. What's your point?You've walked right into an entirely different army comp. Work in a fungal or something, you aren't against void/collo anymore. This thread is turning into "I lose to void/collo because of phoenixes" it's getting silly. It's a two base timing attack, you as a zerg player can take a third. There's nothing about this build that stops you from reacting to the push with mutas as you would have corrupters. You could open and harass with mutas, but that's going to force the game away from void/collo anyway and irrelevant to the thread. Pretty much. This is just normal zerg whine. I'm not saying the composition is perfectly balanced, per-se, aka, it takes equal skill to use it and counter it. It can be a pretty easy-mode 1a win. But, as with all such strategies, the problem is, that you let him get to that point. And you people suggesting that a protoss goes mass phoenix into void ray/colossi/mothership/archon is just getting ridiculous. Phoenix play is cute, but going mass phoenix is just asking for a single infestor to completely shut your crap down. And there won't be anything you can do about it. Phoenix are actually ridiculously weak, and would be worthless without their "fire while moving" power. Lock them down with some fungals, and they'll melt to anything that can hit air. Not to mention they can't touch spore crawlers. By the time you get infestors out your mutas will be dead and your overlords, queens, and drones will be getting sniped by the phoenix against a good toss. Infestors will shut down the phoenix play but not before it does heavy damage. You're left with nothing to defend yourself while you wait for the infestors to build, which takes a long time, leaving the opportunity for the toss to do as much damage as he can and then cut phoenix production when he sees the infestation pit. Once you have 7-10 phoenix you can still snipe queens, drones, and overlords without taking much more than shield damage from the spore crawlers unless the zerg gets a huge amount of them which isn't good for him either. Basically if mutas counter this, it forces zerg to go muta against stargate, which is horrible. And you suggest, "oh just go muta, set yourself behind, and then go infestor to clean up the phoenixes after you are already way behind". Nice advice man. Hydra is the only way to effectively deal with double stargate phoenix yet this build forces you into muta instead, so you're pretty much fucked against a good toss.
No, you're suggesting that if a protoss player makes phoenixes against mutas, you've already lost. And if you've already lost everything to phoenixes, then infesters aren't going to help (well gee, if you've already lost the game, you lost the game).
Zerg three base defenses against phoenix harass? Do I need to tell you how to do that? Toss isn't going to have anything that amounts to a scary ground army if he's pumping out 2 stargate phoenixes on 2 bases. I still don't know why you couldn't mix a few corrupters in with mutas to start with.
|
Did anyone try a 2base hydra timing attack with speedling reinforcements? Iam not sure the doublestarport voidray colossus build can hold this if you stop droneing and just flood with speedlings.
this is allready a established response to some of the blinkstalker timings.
artosis and Idra didnt mention this so I wonder.
|
On February 18 2011 01:54 Morfildur wrote:
I tested a little in the unit tester, and mutalisk/corruptors really seem to be the solution.
Ofc i didn't micro and the unit composition makes a difference, though i tried to make a realistic adaption to scouted mutalisks:
Protoss:
7 Phoenixes
14 Void Rays
6 Colossi
19 Zealots
10 Stalkers
Total Cost: 9500 Minerals, 4500 Gas, 150 Supply (2 base = less probes)
Upgrades (not included in costs):
Extended Range for colossi
Zerg:
10 Corruptors
40 Mutalisks
Total Cost: 5500 Minerals, 5000 Gas, 100 Supply (to make it look like a 3/4 base Zerg who has many drones and less supply for units)
Upgrades: None
It's a close fight, but after everything that shoots air is dead, the Zerg still has 10 mutalisks, 9 corruptors. With 50 Mutalisks instead (even less minerals but equal gas) there are 21 surviving mutalisks.
Micro might make a difference, though the Zerg can easily add 1-2 infestors since he should be on 3 bases to prevent any micro.
Going mutalisks does one important job: It ignores half of his army because it just can't shoot back and while it's not that effective against the units that _can_ shoot back, the mutalisks are able to clean up when they defended the threats.
So if you go 3/4 base mutalisks (possible to even use 2 bases just for gas) you force the protoss to totally abandon his build and either build lots of phoenixes, for which roach/hydra/infestor is a good counter while your mutalisks are still useful for harass or he can get a lot more stalkers, which means he won't have that many voidrays or colossi, meaning you can return to roach/hydra/infestor as well.
Ofc this is theorycrafting, but i'm quite sure the theory is valid. I do have to test upgrades and sentries, too, though the Protoss has to upgrade 2 unit types, the Zerg just one (he might even get a second spire).
The biggest problem ofc is still the scouting, though a few sacrificed overlords should be able to scout the enemy in time. You just have to make sure he can't harass you with phoenixes too much, 1-2 infestors on each base should solve that problem and can be gathered for a big battle in time.
What's funny is that 40 muta and 10 corruptor is more gaz heavy than your so called "so gaz heavy mix void colossus" (and I had phenix cauz you know that's it).
Add one or two sentries against muta?
|
Well I don't get those who says muta / corruptor is the solution. What's the point of corruptors when you have mass muta? Mutas have less range so in combat they will tank all damage anyways, and vs. phoenixes corruptors don't help because of how slow they are compared to mutas or phoenixes - toss can just outmicro corruptors and kill mutas, or just run away when you come with corruptors.
|
On February 18 2011 02:49 Alpina wrote:
Well I don't get those who says muta / corruptor is the solution. What's the point of corruptors when you have mass muta? Mutas have less range so in combat they will tank all damage anyways, and vs. phoenixes corruptors don't help because of how slow they are compared to mutas or phoenixes - toss can just outmicro corruptors and kill mutas, or just run away when you come with corruptors.
A few corrupters helps with a few things. Their range means they're capable of hitting phoenixes while mutas focus the important targets. You can corrupt, which kills your focus targets 20% faster, meaning you can kill the power units (void/collo) off faster.
We are talking about engaging the death ball. If the protoss player insists on wasting APM with fancy phoenix micro when their whole army is engaged, then just keep your mutas within corrupter range and target the correct units. Phoenixes can fly about all they want but in a direct fight with the rest of the protoss army, they're going to be confined to where the ground force is (if you want them to be useful anyway). The idea is to break his all-in, not come out of the fight at 200 supply.
Void rays and collosus are both units that get exponentially better the more them you have. If you focus and kill off these units, you've broken their all-in and can pretty much mop up the remaining army with reinforcements tailored to kill whatever he still has and a superior (3 base to 2 base) economy.
|
On February 18 2011 01:24 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else. Your already quite a bit behind at this point, you just spent a ton of resources into mutas which will die. It is simply setting yourself behind as a way to prevent toss from using a powerful build. Made worse because you now have phoenixes you can't deal with that will be shooting down overlords and denying map vision. Win-win for the toss.
Make Mutas.
Then, make Corrupters.
If he goes Phoenix, with with Corrupters. If he sticks to VR/Colo, make more Mutas.
If you don't do as much damage as the mutas cost, you should be up a base anyway, so stop bitching and l2p.
Why is this thread in a bizarro world where Protoss can tech-switch instantly and Zerg is permanently committed to their build?
"If I make Brood Lords, Terran can make vikings!"
|
On February 18 2011 02:09 Offhand wrote:
No, you're suggesting that if a protoss player makes phoenixes against mutas, you've already lost. And if you've already lost everything to phoenixes, then infesters aren't going to help (well gee, if you've already lost the game, you lost the game).
Zerg three base defenses against phoenix harass? Do I need to tell you how to do that? Toss isn't going to have anything that amounts to a scary ground army if he's pumping out 2 stargate phoenixes on 2 bases. I still don't know why you couldn't mix a few corrupters in with mutas to start with.
Yes, if you go muta against phoenix, you should lose the game, do I need to tell you how to wipe the floor with mutas? The ground army is irrelevant, you go muta, they will all die, then your overlords will die, and you queens will die, then by the time you stabilize you will be way behind. Grats, you stopped toss from using an abusive strat, but you still lose. Mixing in corruptors changes little outside of making it more expensive for zerg. Toss has the advantage of choosing when to fight with the phoenix, he keeps harassing and fucking up your mutas, and as soon as he sees corruptor he runs away and starts adding in void rays. Zerg is behind the whole time.
Muta will only work if you mass them while the toss blindly masses void rays, which will work on the ladder sometimes, especially now when bad toss will just blindly go for a free win. But against a GOOD toss, you go muta against stargate, and you are going to lose the mutas as well as queens and overlords. Mutas are not a viable way to defend against phoenix harass, and never have been. It is one of the worst ways to respond to phoenix, actually it is the worst outside of just ignoring them.
|
On February 18 2011 03:01 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:24 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 18 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else. Your already quite a bit behind at this point, you just spent a ton of resources into mutas which will die. It is simply setting yourself behind as a way to prevent toss from using a powerful build. Made worse because you now have phoenixes you can't deal with that will be shooting down overlords and denying map vision. Win-win for the toss. Make Mutas. Then, make Corrupters. If he goes Phoenix, with with Corrupters. If he sticks to VR/Colo, make more Mutas. If you don't do as much damage as the mutas cost, you should be up a base anyway, so stop bitching and l2p. Why is this thread in a bizarro world where Protoss can tech-switch instantly and Zerg is permanently committed to their build? "If I make Brood Lords, Terran can make vikings!"
No it's not tech switching instantly, he opens with the tech!! If you actually watched the video, toss can start this with a phoenix scout, which isn't just going to scout, it's going to poke at overlords, and zerg is forced to defend them. If you defend with muta, he just has to not be a moron, and keep building phoenix. If he doesn't defend with muta, proceed with the death ball as planned.
|
So are you saying your blind strat is inferior to the toss blind strat? Listen, I can only give you suggestions on how to break the all-in. You need to scout and actually see what's happening. If you're losing all your overlords/queens to phoenix, well it's not my fault you can't make more then one queen per base. Mass phoenix isn't any kind of a lategame scenario protoss wants to be in.
|
On February 18 2011 03:06 Offhand wrote:
So are you saying your blind strat is inferior to the toss blind strat? Listen, I can only give you suggestions on how to break the all-in. You need to scout and actually see what's happening. If you're losing all your overlords/queens to phoenix, well it's not my fault you can't make more then one queen per base. Mass phoenix isn't any kind of a lategame scenario protoss wants to be in.
You aren't understanding, scouting is not the problem. When you see the first phoenix, you have to respond or you are going to lose overlords. Mass phoenix is good or bad based on what zerg is doing, and if he goes muta, it's really good. If you respond with muta, you will lose. If you respond with hydra, he can proceed with the death ball and you will lose. If you respond with extra queens and spore crawlers, he can continue making phoenix and you will lose. Queens and spore crawlers are only good at defend against a small number of phoenix, all he has to do is keep building them and you will need hydras, and then he is adding in colossus.
|
On February 18 2011 03:06 Offhand wrote:
So are you saying your blind strat is inferior to the toss blind strat? Listen, I can only give you suggestions on how to break the all-in. You need to scout and actually see what's happening. If you're losing all your overlords/queens to phoenix, well it's not my fault you can't make more then one queen per base. Mass phoenix isn't any kind of a lategame scenario protoss wants to be in.
It's not a blind strat! It's a phoenix in your base, you have to respond. You respond one way, toss makes the death ball and wins, you respond another way, toss keeps using the tech he already has and wins.
It forces zerg to to make a sup par decision just to avoid the death ball.
|
Sorry I'm not a master strategist...
By reading this thread here is one thing I don't understand:
-protoss wants to make void ray / collossus
-zerg goes mutalisk
-so protoss goes phoenix in order to counter the mutalisks
In that case, by making phoenix, doesn't that mean that the protoss is not going void ray? So in other words, he's not actually going to make a void ray / collossus deathball army.
Can someone please clarify this?
|
On February 18 2011 03:14 AlBundy wrote:
Sorry I'm not a master strategist...
By reading this thread here is one thing I don't understand:
-protoss wants to make void ray / collossus
-zerg goes mutalisk
-so protoss goes phoenix in order to counter the mutalisks
In that case, by making phoenix, doesn't that mean that the protoss is not going void ray? So in other words, he's not actually going to make a void ray / collossus deathball army.
Can someone please clarify this?
Yeah exactly, only he is opening with a phoenix to scout, and muta is a terrible response to this. He's not at all committed to make the void rays. So yay, you stopped him from building voidrays, at the price of making mutas which are greatly inferior to phoenix.
|
I like the idea of using the light units for zerg [muta ling] to deal fast damage and reinforce quickly for zerg. The glave bounces will also help and require toss to have enough sentries for shield. The main idea would be to stop protoss from directly attacking you until you have another base, or hive tech.
I have encountered 2 base infestor play and roach with neural parasite, letting roaches tank colossus shots and neural parasite the void rays. This obviously has holes since anti-air is non existent.Queens require 0 larva and are always a worthwhile mineral dump especially with transfuse creep spread etc.
I don't have exact math (don't kill me I am a busy student if someone wants to help me out here) but the infestation pit + pathogen glands + parasite is about the same cost as thermal lance and colossus den.
I feel this match-up will come down to micro, much similar in the sense of muta bane in tvz where the terran has to micro the marines to win.
If blizzard were to do something I would think that a corruption buff would be pretty awesome, I don't know an exact figure, but the idea that you can cast a spell and make a unit take extra damage would be and awesome combination with light units that deal fast damage like the muta ling.
Flame shields on 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
