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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 22:35 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 22:16 Protein wrote:On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote:On February 17 2011 05:11 Protein wrote:On February 17 2011 05:09 DamnCats wrote:I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? Okay so wait. I say that you need to go mutas to beat a ball of colossus, vray, stalker and sentry and you suddenly add in archons, mothership and phoenixs? Do you know how much gas that all is? Did you not look at my "hypothetical army"? If you don't know that 24 mutalisks would rape 10 stalkers and 5 sentries in the blink of an idea, I suggest you change games. Edit: just to add, this is the prioblem with theory crafting. You get answers like " Ha, you think muts would counter an army that has spent a lot of gas on vrays/colossi to counter your roach opening? Muts won't work because protoss can go an entirely different tech tree and then pull out a mothership and destroy your muta army!"This thread is retarded. Mothership and archons was just an example you can forget that on 2 bases. Yes, you are right if the toss is blind and does not want to see what's going outside his base then yeah you can make mass mutas, come and kill his void/collossus army. But in real game protoss react to what you are doing. If he sees you massing mutas he adds phoenixes and blink stalkers, and then you no more can kill his army in straight up battle, unless your muta are 3/3 lol. Well I don't know maybe there is some good timing for mutas or something but I always try to go muta vs. void/collosus ball and usually I fail. The only time I win if then toss does not play well.
So, off two base, Protoss will have 5-6 Colos, 10-20 VRs, a decent number of Phoenixes, A sizable amount of stalkers with blink, archons, and a friggen mothership?
Let's think about this.
On February 16 2011 16:11 Ribbon wrote:
Edit: Numbers!
2 bases with 2 geysers each gives the protoss 10,000 gas. Idra said 5 Colos and 20 VRs, right?
2 Stargates = 300
20 Void Rays = 3000
Robo Facility = 100
Obs (For the scouting) = 75
Robo Bay = 200
Thermal Lance = 200
5 Colos = 1000
Even assuming your gateway army is entirely zealots, and you don't get any upgrades except the basically mandatory Thermal Lance, that death ball costs 4875 gas.
So, let's say the Protoss scouts a bunch of Mutas, like 12-15. Indeed, being a clever Protoss, he knows his opponent is going to go mass Muta. So he gets 6 Phoenix, 14 Stalkers with blink, 4 Sentries for Guardian Shield, 2 archons, and a mothership. In other words, his Death Ball is
20 Void Rays
5 Colossus
14 Blink Stalkers
6 Phoenix
4 Sentries
2 Archons
1 Mothership (!).
Zealots
If I do my math right, that 154 food, not counting the zealots. So we'll assume he kills all his probes and makes 23 Zealots. This build is kinda all-in anyway. I'm only interested in the gas. How much gas does this take, out of the 10,000 that's in the 4 geysers?
2 Stargates = 300
20 Void Rays = 3000
6 Phoenixes = 600
Robo Facility = 100
Obs (For the scouting) = 75
Robo Bay = 200
Thermal Lance = 200
5 Colossi = 1000
Twilight Council = 100
Blink = 150
14 Stalkers = 700
4 Sentries = 400
Dark Shrine = 250
4 DTs for archons = 1000 (this is 50 gas cheaper than getting Templar Archives and 4 HTs)
Fleet Beacon = 200
Mothership = 400
How much gas is that total? It's....8,675 gas. So this is literally impossible on Crevasse. On a normal map, it is barely possible, but extremely slow (the geysers in you main will deplete before you're finished). According to Liquipedia, a base gets you 228 gas per minute. That's 465 gas per minute off two base. We'll assume a Forge FE where you get all 4 geysers at the same time.
So, the protoss opens Forge FE. His scout probe sees that the Zerg counters by double expanding, so he feels safe getting 4 gas once his nexus finishes. Day[9] daily 231 showcases a Forge FE by oGsMc, whose nexus finishes right at 5 minutes. So let's say it's oGsMC vs July.
We'll assume all 4 assimilators finish with the nexus, and he puts 3 probes in each immediately*. How long will it take to get the gas he needs?
8675/465 = 18.65. Plus the five minutes before mining means that MC will have the gas at just after the 22 minute mark. So, depending on what the last thing he builds is, the push will be ready at between 23 and 25 game minutes. In other words, about at least 9 minutes after July maxes out. Note that this is a game where he went speedling opening, got some lings, and did Corrupter harass. Note that he also got a lot of upgrades, which MC wouldn't have been able to afford (even though he got the forge). By the time July has 200/200 and upgrades, MC has mined a little over half the gas for his death ball.
I hope you see why this is a problem in the "Blink Stalker/Sentry/Colo/Void Ray/Phoenix/Archon/Mothership combination. Even though this is an extreme example, it's 4,000 gas more shit that he can get. If he's get 5 Colo/20 VR (the ball), and want to have it before the Zerg starts 300 food pushing him while expanding, he can't afford the mothership (600 gas), archons (1250 gas), or blink (250 gas). Even after cutting all that out and replacing it with Zealots or whatever, his ball his still finished about 1900 gas (~4 minutes) too late (not counting the time to build his last few gas units). And that's assuming he doesn't lose a single gas unit or mining time to harass.
4 minutes is a hell of a timing window.
*In the actual game, he had 100 gas mined when the Nexus finished. We'll ignore that 15 game seconds saved for the sake of simplicity.
EDIT: 20 VRs came from the video. If you think that's too much, you can cut out 12 to have the following when the Zerg Maxes:
8 Void Rays
5 Colossus
14-16 Stalkers
6 Phoenix
4 Sentries
Zealots
With no upgrades except Thermal Lance. That feels a little less scary, doesn't it? But you can't add any more gas to this.
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this episode is kind of stupid... instead of talking about it, why not just have artosis play P against Idra's Z???
load up stats and replays and see how well Idra does against this type of P???
Whenever toss gets VR and colossus at the same time, zerg can dual expand, get heavy gas, and keep trading corruptors with colossus
hydras will own the rest anyways...
1 robo cannot keep up with corruptors sniping colossus in the first 16 minutes
edit: also, mass corruptors is the answer to this type of build, but only together with mass lings
the idea is to let distract the stalkers with zerglings
each colossus snipe should take around 30 lings with 10~12 corruptors
this is worth 3000 minerals 1000 gas worth of army which will easily snipe away 2~3 colosus if protoss army is somewhere around 6~8 VR + 2~3 colossus + 5~6 stalkers + zealots rest
we are talking specifically about 4000 mineral 2000 gas army
which a good 2-base protoss can only get as soon as 14 game minute mark
when these 2 armies clash, there are a couple of scenarios
#1 full trade
toss will lose all colossus and a few zealots which should be around 1000 min 600 gas
zerg will lose all corruptors and lings
this trade is definitely zerg favorable
#2 semi trade
toss lost just 1 colossus
zerg lost more than 1/2 corruptors
this trade is definitely protoss favorable
#3 gun/run trade
toss lost 1 colossus
zerg lost a few (less then 3~4) corruptors
this trade is definitely zerg favorable
we have 2 situations where zerg is favorable...
because with protoss down back to 1 colossus left and 1 robo
roach/hydra will win vs any VR heavy army
the solution is for toss to get a lot of stalkers and make sure battle scenario # 2 happens
but let's face it, on 2 bases toss can only gather so much gas where zerg can get mineral heavy army to snipe away the colossus
if the toss is not careful and zerg gets way too many corruptors, zerg can instant-win the game by cleaning up all colossus, back up, group more corruptors and run in with mass lings again
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WRONG IT IS NOT IMBALANCED
Think outside the box for once instead of just saying Imbalanced!
Mass baneling/queen with a few zerglings out in front. Protoss deathball has to move out to hit your base. You hit it on all sides with mass baneling, destroying their ground army. It needs good positioning to set up, but you're zerg so you have the entire map scouted and creep spread throughout the map. Even think about some baneling traps along the way, or not if you're worried about obs. Also you could get your banes into position and keep them burrowed which would prevent scouting from phoenixes instead of observers which is what the protoss likes to scout with because of its speed.
Mass queen at base with a fair amount of spore crawlers to defend the voids. The voids won't like having to attack into a large amount of aa.
Remax and go kill protoss, they won't be able to rebuild fast enough. Maybe just some mass ling to kill their expo, void's wont kill the lings fast enough. Then you can pick away at their main.
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Zerg could always just attack, and possibly win.
That's an idea that just keeps coming back to me. I totally understand that IdrA and Artosis love high economy games, and macro style games with tons of expanding, but this seems to leave out the fact that Zerg can launch attacks at their opponent.
I'm not trying to say these two players don't know that. I'm not a fool. What I'm saying is they both have a tendency to not really attack. If the Protoss is doing some fancy teching while turtled up, why not just attack him and widdle him down? Both tend to play so reactionary that even if the game is in the bag, and they literally have a 1a+click victory in the bag, they will expand, sit back and let the opponent remax. It's weird, but I've seen it happen numerous times.
I think one possible way to fight this type of play is to, "Just go @#$%^&ing kill him."
I think if we see someone try this OP strat against July, or NesTea they will just attack and kill the Protoss. The more I think about it, the more that seems to make sense to me.
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I think the gas assumptions on the protoss end are getting a bit rediculous. The above example is just hyperbolic and silly, but not much further off then what zergs have been advocating most of the thread.
If you substitute the word "gas" for "larva", the metagame is exactly the same. "You need to apply pressure to the zerg player, else he will spend his larva on drones." becomes "You need to apply pressure to the protoss player, else he will spend his gas on voids/collos."
Furthering the muta suggestion. Let me put it in the simplest terms possible. A muta midgame will instantly stop the possibility of a void/collo comp. You cannot hit a 2 base timing attack with a void/collo army and defend from mutas. You need other tech or other units, and that's exactly what you're trying to do as zerg, yes? Stop void/collo from happening?
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On February 18 2011 00:54 TimeSpiral wrote:
Zerg could always just attack, and possibly win.
Exactly. Yesterday this P player was against me and was doing some strat that just reeked of being the slimiest, lamest shit in the world. I didn't feel like losing to it, so instead of expanding I noticed that he forgot to wall in his front-- I cranked out as many lings as I could, then harassed while expanding and had the better economy and roaches to handle his stalkers once he recovered a bit. The game didn't have to turn into some 200/200 deathball-omg-i-have-to-remax situation, because I just killed him.
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On February 18 2011 00:54 TimeSpiral wrote:
I think if we see someone try this OP strat against July, or NesTea they will just attack and kill the Protoss. The more I think about it, the more that seems to make sense to me.
I'd be very surprised if July or Nestea lost to 2-base void-colossus (although July has a tendency to screw up at times).
Although the replays haven't been posted yet, I'd like to know what the "IMBALANCED" crew have to say about Minigun losing to Catz using this strategy, while winning the overall series.
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On February 18 2011 00:10 Offhand wrote:
Phoenixes come first. But can still be out massed by a zerg air force should the zerg player want to.
No, I don't think so, especially with double stargate, you cannot overwhelm the phoenix numbers if you are on 2-3 base. All toss needs to do is relentlessly engage the muta flock before it grows too big, picking them off and lowering their health while retreating to regen sheilds to prevent any pheonix losses. This is easy when the superior speed of the pheonix, the mutas cannot retreat without taking damage, while the phoenix can retreat at any time. The muta flock becomes more dangerous when it is large enough to one shot a mis-micro'ed phoenix, but this can be prevented if the toss relentlessly engages them.
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On February 18 2011 00:57 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:54 TimeSpiral wrote:
Zerg could always just attack, and possibly win.
Exactly. Yesterday this P player was against me and was doing some strat that just reeked of being the slimiest, lamest shit in the world. I didn't feel like losing to it, so instead of expanding I noticed that he forgot to wall in his front-- I cranked out as many lings as I could, then harassed while expanding and had the better economy and roaches to handle his stalkers once he recovered a bit. The game didn't have to turn into some 200/200 deathball-omg-i-have-to-remax situation, because I just killed him.
If he didn't wall in or block your lings he was a fail toss imo and it doesn't count. I have countered this strat with fast 2 hatch hydras, but that is essentially an all in strat with about 50/50 chance to succeed. It is very similar to the response against the Bisu build with 5 hatch hydra in SC1. Though it is a lot tougher because hydras are now slow and fewer in numbers. Basically you need to bring down his wall before colossus with range is out. This is a lot harder on certain maps of course.
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On February 18 2011 01:07 rushian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:54 TimeSpiral wrote:
I think if we see someone try this OP strat against July, or NesTea they will just attack and kill the Protoss. The more I think about it, the more that seems to make sense to me. I'd be very surprised if July or Nestea lost to 2-base void-colossus (although July has a tendency to screw up at times). Although the replays haven't been posted yet, I'd like to know what the "IMBALANCED" crew have to say about Minigun losing to Catz using this strategy, while winning the overall series.
I'd like to see that game but the funny thing is when catz hits this on the ladder thought this was an abusive build that would get nerfed though that was before that tournament.
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On February 18 2011 01:07 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:10 Offhand wrote:
Phoenixes come first. But can still be out massed by a zerg air force should the zerg player want to. No, I don't think so, especially with double stargate, you cannot overwhelm the phoenix numbers if you are on 2-3 base. All toss needs to do is relentlessly engage the muta flock before it grows too big, picking them off and lowering their health while retreating to regen sheilds to prevent any pheonix losses. This is easy when the superior speed of the pheonix, the mutas cannot retreat without taking damage, while the phoenix can retreat at any time. The muta flock becomes more dangerous when it is large enough to one shot a mis-micro'ed phoenix, but this can be prevented if the toss relentlessly engages them.
I didn't say pure muta. You could make a few corrupters instead. Of course massing phoenix means you've already prevented collo/void and now you just have to deal with phoenixes. I'm not going to map out endgames for you against all the non-collo/void possibilities. If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else.
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Void/colossi off 2bases gets destroyed by mutas. Dimaga crushed to whitera with it.
A voidray/colossi off 3 or more bases is far more deadly imo. But if the zerg macroes well and attacks when he's maxed, remaxes and attacks again, he can deny the protoss of getting a high number of void/colossi. I dislike all the zergs whining about this, they just blame imbalance for their personal mistakes.
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i think artosis and idra were talking of the game kyrix vs imyonghwa mostly here where mutas are default loss i mean toss does have 2 stargate lol
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On February 18 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else.
Your already quite a bit behind at this point, you just spent a ton of resources into mutas which will die. It is simply setting yourself behind as a way to prevent toss from using a powerful build. Made worse because you now have phoenixes you can't deal with that will be shooting down overlords and denying map vision. Win-win for the toss.
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On February 18 2011 01:23 traca wrote:
i think artosis and idra were talking of the game kyrix vs imyonghwa mostly here where mutas are default loss i mean toss does have 2 stargate lol
Exactly, muta against double stargate is suicide. Yeah it can work if you mass up muta while the toss blindly masses void rays instead of phoenix. It's counting on an inferior opponent and nothing more.
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On February 18 2011 01:10 Tef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:57 FrostOtter wrote:On February 18 2011 00:54 TimeSpiral wrote:
Zerg could always just attack, and possibly win.
Exactly. Yesterday this P player was against me and was doing some strat that just reeked of being the slimiest, lamest shit in the world. I didn't feel like losing to it, so instead of expanding I noticed that he forgot to wall in his front-- I cranked out as many lings as I could, then harassed while expanding and had the better economy and roaches to handle his stalkers once he recovered a bit. The game didn't have to turn into some 200/200 deathball-omg-i-have-to-remax situation, because I just killed him. If he didn't wall in or block your lings he was a fail toss imo and it doesn't count. I have countered this strat with fast 2 hatch hydras, but that is essentially an all in strat with about 50/50 chance to succeed. It is very similar to the response against the Bisu build with 5 hatch hydra in SC1. Though it is a lot tougher because hydras are now slow and fewer in numbers. Basically you need to bring down his wall before colossus with range is out. This is a lot harder on certain maps of course.
Fair enough, I thought it was somewhat odd. On the other hand, he scouted on 7 when I went back and watched the replay, so I think he had something else planned.
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on another topic I don't like the show/thread title, It's kinda spoilerish, it should be VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ- Imbalanced? but since the show's title is Imbalanced! with the ! maybe it should be Imbalanced! on VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ.
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On February 18 2011 01:24 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
If you see mass phoenix to stop your mutas, then don't continue working a build designed to stop something else. Your already quite a bit behind at this point, you just spent a ton of resources into mutas which will die. It is simply setting yourself behind as a way to prevent toss from using a powerful build. Made worse because you now have phoenixes you can't deal with that will be shooting down overlords and denying map vision. Win-win for the toss.
Yes, if phoenixes managed to successfully harass you and shut down all map control you have, you've lost. What's your point?You've walked right into an entirely different army comp. Work in a fungal or something, you aren't against void/collo anymore.
This thread is turning into "I lose to void/collo because of phoenixes" it's getting silly. It's a two base timing attack, you as a zerg player can take a third. There's nothing about this build that stops you from reacting to the push with mutas as you would have corrupters. You could open and harass with mutas, but that's going to force the game away from void/collo anyway and irrelevant to the thread.
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On February 18 2011 00:49 shwick wrote:
WRONG IT IS NOT IMBALANCED
Think outside the box for once instead of just saying Imbalanced!
Mass baneling/queen with a few zerglings out in front. Protoss deathball has to move out to hit your base. You hit it on all sides with mass baneling, destroying their ground army. It needs good positioning to set up, but you're zerg so you have the entire map scouted and creep spread throughout the map. Even think about some baneling traps along the way, or not if you're worried about obs. Also you could get your banes into position and keep them burrowed which would prevent scouting from phoenixes instead of observers which is what the protoss likes to scout with because of its speed.
Mass queen at base with a fair amount of spore crawlers to defend the voids. The voids won't like having to attack into a large amount of aa.
Remax and go kill protoss, they won't be able to rebuild fast enough. Maybe just some mass ling to kill their expo, void's wont kill the lings fast enough. Then you can pick away at their main.
In this scenario is the Protoss player's F key broken and does he just never do anything but sit in his base until 200?
If you want to discuss things. Rather discuss the theory as theory. Not absolute. If you want to talk about absolutes you have to provide evidence to support your claims.
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I think that making this thread title (same words in special order) was really stupid, as it is so provocative - kind of makes it lol to ask for good behave after that
On topic, there is this huge difference between BW and SC2 in regards to this:
In BW you had ground units (say Dragoon), AA units (say Scout) and capital ships (say Carrier) with both terrans and protoss, zergs were kind of different with this.
In BW, this equations were correct (or at least close to be):
Dragoon > Scout
Carrier > Dragoon
Scout > Carrier
So it was perfectly balanced - no combo could be really unstopable.
In SC2 Vikings and especially Corruptors are close to this ideal state where they serve as really good counter against very specific builds (i.e. capital ships or more often colossi) but are almost (or completelly in case of corruptor) useless in every other situation, where VR is strongest unit in game that will do very well or at least quite good against everything on the ground in big numbers (as you would need like 80 marines or 50 hydras to kill 20 VRs...), and these thing that are not that bad are hardcountered by colossi.
In BW, wraiths and scouts had like 3x times higher DPS to air compared to ground, and only capital ships were just strong overall. In SC2, VR is low tech cheap capital ship... And it should be removed from game and instead make banshee-like-VR and Viking-like-VR.
EDIT: Dan give Gracken fucking microphone or put him in better spot, as your cat and parrots are louder than him!
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EPT
