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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 19:33 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
You guys can theorycraft all you want but in reality NP is NOT the answer to this since the imbalance is in PvZ lategame and once the Blinkstalker upgrade is finished every tosser will be happy to see Infestors using Neural Parasite. To make it a general rule of thumb = No strings attached to PvZ lategame!
well fungal prevents blink as it is also outranging blink 
sure it would need way more tactical positioning and stragical play then R/H/C
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I'm sorry, but at this point I'm starting to lose faith in this show. This is a brand new build that nobody's figured out an immediate counter for, and they're condemning it as imbalanced before giving people some time to figure out how to beat it. That's reactionary and a little silly. To compare to Broodwar situations, was Bisu's build imbalanced versus Zerg? No way! Zerg just needed some time to find a way to deal with it. Was the resulting Zerg build (sorry, don't know the official title for it) imbalanced versus Protoss? No way! Protoss players just needed to develop Zealot-heavy builds to deal with it. Similarly, I think that Zerg will develop a build to deal with this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were as simple as taking Day[9]'s advice: just go fucking kill him. He even used this EXACT UNIT COMPOSITION in his explanation of this principle (Sentry Colossus Void Ray), and said that even if that's an amazing unit composition, the answer to beating it is to just kill the Protoss player before it comes into effect. Who knows, that might very well not be answer, and this build could be imbalanced. The way to deal with it isn't making these videos this early, though. This just seems defeatist and counterproductive, encouraging people to give up and admit imbalance rather than striving to overcome. They need to give this some time before passing judgment, or risk a good counter arising and making the both of them look silly for calling a flavor-of-the-month build imbalanced.
It just seems so rash.
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I think people saying "just build phoenixes if you see mutas" don't understand the consequences of having 7 mutas just raid your base when you only have sentries and MAYBE a few cannons at your entrance (because you can't really have stakers when you're building 2 starports and a robo). Those mutas will kill all your workers in one swoop. Also, you don't "just build phoenix" vs mutas. A 3 base zerg will build so many mutas that he will just roflstomp all you economy/ ground army WHILE the toss is trying to kite them with the phoenixes.
I liked the first two episodes, but IMO this one is just "oh noes, toss can actually counter my instant 200/200 roach/hydra army of 2 bases"
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On February 17 2011 20:05 Acritter wrote:
I'm sorry, but at this point I'm starting to lose faith in this show. This is a brand new build that nobody's figured out an immediate counter for, and they're condemning it as imbalanced before giving people some time to figure out how to beat it. That's reactionary and a little silly. To compare to Broodwar situations, was Bisu's build imbalanced versus Zerg? No way! Zerg just needed some time to find a way to deal with it. Was the resulting Zerg build (sorry, don't know the official title for it) imbalanced versus Protoss? No way! Protoss players just needed to develop Zealot-heavy builds to deal with it. Similarly, I think that Zerg will develop a build to deal with this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were as simple as taking Day[9]'s advice: just go fucking kill him. He even used this EXACT UNIT COMPOSITION in his explanation of this principle (Sentry Colossus Void Ray), and said that even if that's an amazing unit composition, the answer to beating it is to just kill the Protoss player before it comes into effect. Who knows, that might very well not be answer, and this build could be imbalanced. The way to deal with it isn't making these videos this early, though. This just seems defeatist and counterproductive, encouraging people to give up and admit imbalance rather than striving to overcome. They need to give this some time before passing judgment, or risk a good counter arising and making the both of them look silly for calling a flavor-of-the-month build imbalanced.
It just seems so rash.
If a maxed out Army-composition of any kind supported by 4+ bases can't win against a 2-base-build, it's imbalanced. There's really no way around it...
Besides, it's not like the Protoss-build is set in stone, even if there is some kind of decent answer to this build, like for example Mass-Mutas (which could work if the Protoss has WAY to less stalkers) the only thing the Protoss has to do is scout it and switch to Blinkstalkers and 2-stargate-Phoenix.
Also, with Zerg having too less Units to choose from, the Options are incredibly limited to begin with, but look at them nonetheless:
- Zerglings: Besides maybe for Counter-attack-shenanigans useless because of the Collossi and Counterattacking is only possible when the Protoss is maxed and moves out, by that time, you can't really split up your Units and basetrading with a Deathball is suicide, cuz it will always beat you in a straight-up fight.
- Roaches/Hydras: Cannot win without heavy Corruptor-Support.
- Infestors: Fungal is useless and with Range1000-Collossi, only ppl that can't micro at all will loose to Neural-Parasite.
- Ultras: They are weak against Protoss to begin with, but against a Deathball, it's nothing more but suicide, cuz the Protoss will end up having no ground-Army but Mass-VR's and it's really no Problem for the Toss to reinforce his ground-Army...
- Banelings/Baneling-bombs: A Player with good Micro and game-sense will make more stalkers, reatreat with his Army when you try to land the banelings and let the stalkers/VR's kill the overlords.
- Broodlords: with VR's being the direct counter to them, it's silly to even consider BL's.
- Mutas: As described above, The Protoss just has to adjust his build a bit and even has all the necessary structures ready for the hard-counter (2 Stargate).
- Corruptors: Basically the only Unit, cuz it actually kills the important Units of the Deathball (Collo/VR)... If I fight a deathball next time, I'll go for like 50 upgraded Corruptors, the only problem is, that if the Protoss realizes that, he'll just switch to Stalkers and pwn me anyways...
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You don't just fucking SWITCH from 2 stargate robo to gates + blink. It's a huuuuuuuge investment.
Protoss is not zerg when it comes to tech switching. That's why it has so many scouting options, because switching tech is a huge deal esp. on 2 bases.
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On February 17 2011 20:05 Acritter wrote:
I'm sorry, but at this point I'm starting to lose faith in this show. This is a brand new build that nobody's figured out an immediate counter for, and they're condemning it as imbalanced before giving people some time to figure out how to beat it. That's reactionary and a little silly. To compare to Broodwar situations, was Bisu's build imbalanced versus Zerg? No way! Zerg just needed some time to find a way to deal with it. Was the resulting Zerg build (sorry, don't know the official title for it) imbalanced versus Protoss? No way! Protoss players just needed to develop Zealot-heavy builds to deal with it. Similarly, I think that Zerg will develop a build to deal with this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were as simple as taking Day[9]'s advice: just go fucking kill him. He even used this EXACT UNIT COMPOSITION in his explanation of this principle (Sentry Colossus Void Ray), and said that even if that's an amazing unit composition, the answer to beating it is to just kill the Protoss player before it comes into effect. Who knows, that might very well not be answer, and this build could be imbalanced. The way to deal with it isn't making these videos this early, though. This just seems defeatist and counterproductive, encouraging people to give up and admit imbalance rather than striving to overcome. They need to give this some time before passing judgment, or risk a good counter arising and making the both of them look silly for calling a flavor-of-the-month build imbalanced.
It just seems so rash.
Comparing the void ray / colossus ball to the Bisu build is dishonorable for Aiur. The Bisu build actually requires good execution and multitasking but the void ray / colossus build doesn't require anything except sitting in your base until you are maxed.
Edit: Otherwise I agree on your conclusion about the flavour-of-the-month.
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On February 17 2011 20:34 iRRelevance wrote:
You don't just fucking SWITCH from 2 stargate robo to gates + blink. It's a huuuuuuuge investment.
Protoss is not zerg when it comes to tech switching. That's why it has so many scouting options, because switching tech is a huge deal esp. on 2 bases.
Exactly this. People are talking total crap if they think a protoss can throw down stargates and the robo structures, start production of both and THEN swap to blink at 12 minutes... on 2 bases.
Its just another case of people whining like dogs here without giving it time to figure out a counter strat. I remember when collossi was being screamed about, when zergs weere claiming terrans couldnt be killed. Remember the korean 4 gate when it first hit?
Wouldnt very quick muta ball harass this protoss build so bad that it knocks him off the course? So he reacts with pheonix... cleverly kill off your mutas whilst moving into another unit comp that suits what hes transitioned into.
I dont know. I do know though that this show, although with good intentions, isnt too great for the community. 
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i have yet to see 2nd match in any korean top level competition where it works, we saw only 1 build which left toss untouched until he got his buildings up and started massing this unit composition, but somehow nobody saw how weak toss was in certain moments before this massing occured, anything would crush him at that point... its really silly show which is going nowhere, at least idra is moving to US so hopefully this project fails cause its not helping this community in any way, and if artosis wants to make this kind of show it should be posted on BNET forums and not here on liquid!
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On February 17 2011 19:33 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
You guys can theorycraft all you want but in reality NP is NOT the answer to this since the imbalance is in PvZ lategame and once the Blinkstalker upgrade is finished every tosser will be happy to see Infestors using Neural Parasite. To make it a general rule of thumb = No strings attached to PvZ lategame!
You can't get any reasonable amount of blink stalkers and a Colo/VR deathball on two base, especially if you've also got a bunch of Phoenix countering the Muta harass.
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On February 17 2011 20:54 Huckleuro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 20:34 iRRelevance wrote:
You don't just fucking SWITCH from 2 stargate robo to gates + blink. It's a huuuuuuuge investment.
Protoss is not zerg when it comes to tech switching. That's why it has so many scouting options, because switching tech is a huge deal esp. on 2 bases. Exactly this. People are talking total crap if they think a protoss can throw down stargates and the robo structures, start production of both and THEN swap to blink at 12 minutes... on 2 bases. Its just another case of people whining like dogs here without giving it time to figure out a counter strat. I remember when collossi was being screamed about, when zergs weere claiming terrans couldnt be killed. Remember the korean 4 gate when it first hit? Wouldnt very quick muta ball harass this protoss build so bad that it knocks him off the course? So he reacts with pheonix... cleverly kill off your mutas whilst moving into another unit comp that suits what hes transitioned into. I dont know. I do know though that this show, although with good intentions, isnt too great for the community.
Agree with all of this, espeically the last sentence
When I use this build, and I agree it is very powerful, I'm always thinking "thank god he was fooled by the ONE phoenix I built into not making mutas". If you do respond with mutas, making the protoss go phoenix OR stalkers instead of void rays (phoenix are even more gas intensive than void rays), then the lazerz death ball just isn't going to happen.
Also I've lost to a quick timing push with hydras, a few roaches and plenty of lings early on as building the tech required to produce this stuff leaves you low on units early on. But that might just be because I suck.
So both of these responses require scouting the build, and that might be an issue for Zerg that needs addressing. But that's a completely different issue.
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Against Voidrayd/Collo in zergs perspective. Id go for pure corrupters and meanwhile tech up to broodlords fast, since u wont have much units attacking ground and if he decides to do a ground heavy transition.
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I just dont believe that he protoss can switch to mass gateway units as quickly as zerg can change tech. So i believe that mass corruptors is the answer for this build, though you need to actively scout your opponent so you know he isnt switching tech without you knowing it.
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I believe in the Hydra-timing counter.
That is allready my build of choice when i see him going early stargate, knowing that he will not be able to get the colossus out as quickly and that hydras own everything else. The hydra timing does really great damage, often netting me the win outright and denying that expand most of the time. If the game goes on and he gets his colossus out, having some hydras for high-dps drops vs the immobile P are never a bad thing either, although my maincomposition changes into roch/corrupter
I have stumbled on this VR/colossus build several times doing that, but never realised it was "imbalanced" as my win have been pretty resounding everytime. I always considered them "noobs" as they kind of just leand over and died instantly to the hydra timing; now I see that they tried this strat out and probably was pretty successful VS Zergs that play standard passive/massmacro and refuse to adapt to the flow of the game.
OBS; Hydra timing isnt that great on Shakuras as that map is so big which delays the timing to much. And also gives the discussed P-build of VR/colossi more time to grow strong.
Edit:
Hydra/ling obviously.
Edit 2:
Dont see why people are bashing the show, its as if it is tabu to even mention the word "imbalanced". There is a big diffrence between imbalanced and broken, and to me its obvious that various situations troughout the game is imbalanced but not broken. One of the biggest imbalance in the game forinstance imo, is the high APM-requirement for playing Z and the low APM-requirement for playing T. That does not make it broken; because at the higher lvls most ppl have the APM negate that diffrence and when the races are played to their full potential they are pretty even, but at lower lvls it means that Z have serious problems.
Edit 3:
Also, I think its great that they have a thread called "imbalanced". That means that they can close every other thread on the topic and direct them here; so I dont agree with whoever said that this show is bad for the community or should be posted in b-net instead of here. Quite the contrary, this might be the katharsis needed.
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Against Voidrayd/Collo in zergs perspective. Id go for pure corrupters and meanwhile tech up to broodlords fast, since u wont have much units attacking ground and if he decides to do a ground heavy transition.
Whever I get the protis deathball rolling (stalkers / chargelots / brolussus / void rays / ballin upgrades)
The only time I fail is when broodlords decide to join the party.
Thats my personal experience though
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On February 17 2011 20:18 iRRelevance wrote:
I think people saying "just build phoenixes if you see mutas" don't understand the consequences of having 7 mutas just raid your base when you only have sentries and MAYBE a few cannons at your entrance (because you can't really have stakers when you're building 2 starports and a robo). Those mutas will kill all your workers in one swoop. Also, you don't "just build phoenix" vs mutas. A 3 base zerg will build so many mutas that he will just roflstomp all you economy/ ground army WHILE the toss is trying to kite them with the phoenixes.
I liked the first two episodes, but IMO this one is just "oh noes, toss can actually counter my instant 200/200 roach/hydra army of 2 bases"
Man, toss has 2 stargates if he is good he will not be sitting with his air units in his base, he will be constantly flying around harassing and scouting. You are not going to surprise him with mutas if he is good. If zerg has no muta or hydra for a long time then toss just gonna smell that something is wrong.
And you are talking about 7 mutas? What are they for? If you show him just 7 mutas then your mutas will be dead after few minutes I guarantee you.
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On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:11 Protein wrote:On February 17 2011 05:09 DamnCats wrote:I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage?
Okay so wait. I say that you need to go mutas to beat a ball of colossus, vray, stalker and sentry and you suddenly add in archons, mothership and phoenixs?
Do you know how much gas that all is? Did you not look at my "hypothetical army"? If you don't know that 24 mutalisks would rape 10 stalkers and 5 sentries in the blink of an idea, I suggest you change games.
Edit: just to add, this is the prioblem with theory crafting. You get answers like "Ha, you think muts would counter an army that has spent a lot of gas on vrays/colossi to counter your roach opening? Muts won't work because protoss can go an entirely different tech tree and then pull out a mothership and destroy your muta army!"
This thread is retarded.
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On February 17 2011 05:40 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:31 dark fury wrote:On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote:On February 17 2011 05:11 Protein wrote:On February 17 2011 05:09 DamnCats wrote:I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? Of course you can kill his AA, mutas beat stalker/voidrays pretty easily and since the protoss is only on 2 bases with 2 stargates, he cant proce enough phoenix to posses without sacrifising ground forces. again, if the protoss is on 2 you can easily pump out enough mutas to break his anti air. with 6-8 geysers gas wont be a problem so dont whine about gas costs. Also, Colossus DPS is fine. They counter hydras effectivley and thats what they are intended to do, but noone is forcing you to build hydras. Roaches are really good versus colossus, especially in this situation where the protoss wont have a large sentry count. Stop the QQ already Edit: Mutas do not perform poorly against stalkers. Stalkers scale horribly with upgrades and in the later phase of the game, a critical amount of mutas will just tear through any amount of stalkers, even with guardian sheild. Protoss needs storm to handle that wich is something he wont be able to get out of two bases while at the same time keeping up a production of colossi and void rays. I have two stargates churning out void rays. Why would I be unable to churn out some phoenix (plus they build very quickly)? Seriously, I really don't understand this claim. Phoenix do amazingly well against mutas. Who cares about stalkers when I can easily grab phoenix and actually counterharass and scout more! I mean using mutalisks as your primary AA means if I grab phoenix, my void rays are basically unstoppable. I don't think there's any way around it. You need queens. You need corruptors. Mutas, hydras, and infestors just don't seem to cut it.
You have TWO stargates and a robo churning out all of this army on one base? Have you ever played Protoss? No? Didn't think so.
Seriously you zergies need to stop whining. This is ridiculous and absurd. Protoss can't just shit 12 different tech units out constantly.
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On February 17 2011 22:16 Protein wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote:On February 17 2011 05:11 Protein wrote:On February 17 2011 05:09 DamnCats wrote:I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? Okay so wait. I say that you need to go mutas to beat a ball of colossus, vray, stalker and sentry and you suddenly add in archons, mothership and phoenixs? Do you know how much gas that all is? Did you not look at my "hypothetical army"? If you don't know that 24 mutalisks would rape 10 stalkers and 5 sentries in the blink of an idea, I suggest you change games. Edit: just to add, this is the prioblem with theory crafting. You get answers like " Ha, you think muts would counter an army that has spent a lot of gas on vrays/colossi to counter your roach opening? Muts won't work because protoss can go an entirely different tech tree and then pull out a mothership and destroy your muta army!"This thread is retarded.
Mutas is not the answer. As a general rule if P builds a stargate before your spire, you can never be effective with Mutas. Phoenixes are just too good vs Mutas; and as for techswitching, P already have 2 stargates following this build, changing what unit to produce in the same production building is not much of a commitment. And phoenixes build very quickly with chronoboost.
If P goes any other tech-route than stargate however, then I agree that mutas can be a viable option as techswitching is hard for P. But that is not the case in the build we are discussing.
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Could anyone post some replays of this build ? I cannot get it work at all.. anytime my opponent goes mutas i die, other times i just die to ling/roach push
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200 supply carriers with +3 attack upgrades is also uncounterable.
200 supply of thors is also uncounterable.
Point is, that you can't get these compositions when you get attacked/harassed in early/d game.
It's a little exaggerated, but this point is also valid when it comes to the voidray/colossus composition.
It's a rediciolous strong composition when you get maxed, but it's very vulnerable to early ling/muta harassment.
Lots of times the counter doesn't rely in the right counter composition, but exploiting it's weakness, and obviously the weakness lies in the fact that it's an awful lot of tech for 2 base, so obviously he will have to cut in army count in the early game. Go mass muta when you scout this build, and try it out. I'm willing to bet on it that it's very effective.
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EPT
