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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 14:12 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:05 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 13:44 Jumbled wrote:
I saw someone earlier complain about this game being a scouting win. Games are and should be won by good scouting. Scouting and denying scouting better than your opponent is a big part of what being a good RTS player is all about. Which still favors protoss, no? Observers, phoenix, overseers, hallucinate vs. overlords and overseers that are easier to spot and shoot down. Not at all. Both races have good scouting available. Overlords and overseers are easier to spot than observers, but much harder to shoot down. Hallucinate and changeling both provide a free unit that can scout the enemy base fairly well. Finally, there's nothing a phoenix scout can do that a zerg can't do just as effectively with a muta.
Come on, the observer is easier to shoot down if you actually see a little blur vs. something that shows up on the minimap, seriously. And you are going to say a slow changeling is just as good to scout with as a hallucinated phoenix?? Phoenix and muta are really close but the phoenix is still faster.
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Two base Protoss is not hard to scout. There is very little room to cover and the initial batch of mutalisks can easily fly in and force the Protoss to reveal his phoenixes. It's not like ZvT where one stray Thor shot or marine ball stim can ruin your whole game; Protoss does not have that kind of AoE against air until templar tech.
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On February 17 2011 14:22 Azarkon wrote:
Two base Protoss is not hard to scout. There is very little room to cover and the initial batch of mutalisks can easily fly in and force the Protoss to reveal his phoenixes. It's not like ZvT where one stray Thor shot or marine ball stim can ruin your whole game; Protoss does not have that kind of AoE against air until templar tech.
Well yeah, the problem I see is that it's actually pretty obvious what toss is doing with a bit of scouting, the problem is that to react to it, toss can shut down your options easier if he is also scouting. Anyways I disagree with them to say it's imbalanced so soon and I look forward to seeing how this evolves. Not looking forward to hitting it on the ladder again though.
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On February 17 2011 13:44 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 13:28 1Eris1 wrote:On February 17 2011 13:26 Azarkon wrote:
In which case Catz could've gone back to standard, since the "death ball" push won't be coming if he's spending his gas on 2 gate phoenixes.
The interaction between phoenix vs. muta, colossi vs. hydra, vr vs. corrupter, has hardly been worked out by this video. I agree with Tyler that the right way to present this strategy would've been to call for ideas and to spark a discussion, not deliver a verdict. What leaves a bitter taste in many people's mouths is the declaration that "Blizzard must change something" in order for this to be fixed. It's very much like putting the cart before the horse because before this week I didn't even hear about colossi/vr being considered "imbalanced." Not exactly. He had to invest all his resources into mutalisks. If Minigun scouted it, he's not countered the mutalisks and can just use the phoenix to support the death push anyways. Catz can't simply go back to playing standard. There are ways for the zerg player to hedge his bets when doing this. Getting a couple of corruptors or infestors gives the zerg a good chance of being able to deal with a phoenix switch. The other thing of course is to keep up his scouting and see the phoenixes coming. I saw someone earlier complain about this game being a scouting win. Games are and should be won by good scouting. Scouting and denying scouting better than your opponent is a big part of what being a good RTS player is all about.
As a zerg player, it may be my bias. But scouting a protoss that has air units out is a bitch. Im lucky if I see what is coming, and even then, there is no way to be 100% sure. It's unforunate, because zerg is a more reactionary race than protoss
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On February 17 2011 14:38 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 13:44 Jumbled wrote:On February 17 2011 13:28 1Eris1 wrote:On February 17 2011 13:26 Azarkon wrote:
In which case Catz could've gone back to standard, since the "death ball" push won't be coming if he's spending his gas on 2 gate phoenixes.
The interaction between phoenix vs. muta, colossi vs. hydra, vr vs. corrupter, has hardly been worked out by this video. I agree with Tyler that the right way to present this strategy would've been to call for ideas and to spark a discussion, not deliver a verdict. What leaves a bitter taste in many people's mouths is the declaration that "Blizzard must change something" in order for this to be fixed. It's very much like putting the cart before the horse because before this week I didn't even hear about colossi/vr being considered "imbalanced." Not exactly. He had to invest all his resources into mutalisks. If Minigun scouted it, he's not countered the mutalisks and can just use the phoenix to support the death push anyways. Catz can't simply go back to playing standard. There are ways for the zerg player to hedge his bets when doing this. Getting a couple of corruptors or infestors gives the zerg a good chance of being able to deal with a phoenix switch. The other thing of course is to keep up his scouting and see the phoenixes coming. I saw someone earlier complain about this game being a scouting win. Games are and should be won by good scouting. Scouting and denying scouting better than your opponent is a big part of what being a good RTS player is all about. As a zerg player, it may be my bias. But scouting a protoss that has air units out is a bitch. Im lucky if I see what is coming, and even then, there is no way to be 100% sure. It's unforunate, because zerg is a more reactionary race than protoss
Well you could have a huge creep spread out to try and counteract the Protoss scouting. Traditionally they build only one or two Observers and if you have 2-3 extra Queens for creep spread instead of just one it might be faster than he can kill it ... especially if you start early while he is still teching.
The Void Ray + Colossus combo is very powerful because a) the units are "stackable" (even Colossi can be bunched up together in a tight ball), b) they have a longer range compared to their opposition AND c) they are pretty mobile while fighting. In addition to these awesome abilities they have the added support of very good basic units which keep the opponent at bay or help killing it.
Comparable units of other races have some sort of Achilles heel:
- Siege tanks have awesome range but must be immobile
- Thors are clunky in their movement and have a huge model so they are too bulky to stack well.
- Vikings have large range but dont fire at the ground.
Sure the Colossus doesnt hit air, but it doesnt need to because Void Rays and Stalkers can do that job. In general the Protoss army is one of high quality units and this provides less problems with mobility in chokes. If you have a wide open space to engage the Protoss on - without any cliffs to retreat the Colossus to and chokes to block off with Forcefields - the engagements might end up differently. IMO the Protoss units need to become a bit "bulkier" to keep the "dps per combat area" smaller ... not as bad as BW Dragoons, but not as smooth as they are now either.
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haha another one vs zerg, you would think they would at least try to make the episodes balanced...
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On February 17 2011 14:20 Treemonkeys wrote:Come on, the observer is easier to shoot down if you actually see a little blur vs. something that shows up on the minimap, seriously. And you are going to say a slow changeling is just as good to scout with as a hallucinated phoenix?? Phoenix and muta are really close but the phoenix is still faster.
So the observer is better than an overseer because it's slow and fragile, but sneaky, while the changeling is worse than a hallucination because it's slow and fragile, yet sneaky? You can't have it both ways, you know.
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On February 17 2011 14:28 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:22 Azarkon wrote:
Two base Protoss is not hard to scout. There is very little room to cover and the initial batch of mutalisks can easily fly in and force the Protoss to reveal his phoenixes. It's not like ZvT where one stray Thor shot or marine ball stim can ruin your whole game; Protoss does not have that kind of AoE against air until templar tech. Well yeah, the problem I see is that it's actually pretty obvious what toss is doing with a bit of scouting, the problem is that to react to it, toss can shut down your options easier if he is also scouting. Anyways I disagree with them to say it's imbalanced so soon and I look forward to seeing how this evolves. Not looking forward to hitting it on the ladder again though.
Part of the issue is that toss can get a quick stargate, make 1 void and a few phoenix, then do a 6-7 gate all-in follow up, or they can transition into VR/colossus. It's very difficult to scout at all during this window, since the first VR clears out all the nearby overlords.
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On February 17 2011 15:08 Jayzo wrote:
haha another one vs zerg, you would think they would at least try to make the episodes balanced...
i lol'd kuz wasnt episode 2 pvt? OWAIT.
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On February 17 2011 12:22 xbankx wrote:
I just saw this build die to mass muta in root invitational. Basically minigun went 2 stargate void ray into colossus off 2 base(expanding to 3rd when he had map control but it wouldnt even matter). Catz just saved up larva(like 20). Im not sure if Miningun scouted the spire but just because you see spire your not sure if zerg is going muta or corruptors you can't build pheonix blind. So he stayed with voids/colossus, 20 muta came at onces not 5-6 to show muta then allow minigun to switch to pheonix. And GGed minigun. The main thing I think catz did right is that toss don't know what is in egg and what you build spire for. Colossus+void ray is so high gas you have almost no stalker/sentry and void is terrible versus mutas. People should check out the replay. Minigun is of course one of the best toss in NA. Catz is a good creative zerg. Catz did everything right. He used the fact that zerg can "switch" army composition faster than any race since they are not restricted by unit producing building.
Theorycrafting from non-Mastersleague:
It might not sound logical, but i think lots of mutalisks + 1-3 infestors seem to be the solution to this. A Zerg can build a lot more air units a lot faster, so he can have the numerical advantage to protoss in the air and the mutalisk splash should work quite well in a muta-blob vs voidray-blob battle. Mutalisks are also light instead of armored, so no extra damage from voidrays.
It might be a good idea to take a third and fourth just for the gas, so you can get a lot more mutalisks. The Protoss can never switch to phoenixes fast enough, he will have just 2-3 phoenixes while you should be able to have ~30-40 mutalisks from the 8 gas. Also the main advantage of phoenixes over mutalisks is the higher range, mobility and the ability to shoot while moving, which can all be nullified by a single fungle growth.
As the video said, corruptors are bad because they can't deal with the ground army... mutalisks can.
Scouting the protoss shouldn't be such big of a problem, just send in 3 overlords, each from a different angle and you will have scouted his whole base, even if each overlord dies.
I have never played against that build so i don't know if it works, but i'm quite sure it is worth a try.
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On February 17 2011 15:08 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:28 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 14:22 Azarkon wrote:
Two base Protoss is not hard to scout. There is very little room to cover and the initial batch of mutalisks can easily fly in and force the Protoss to reveal his phoenixes. It's not like ZvT where one stray Thor shot or marine ball stim can ruin your whole game; Protoss does not have that kind of AoE against air until templar tech. Well yeah, the problem I see is that it's actually pretty obvious what toss is doing with a bit of scouting, the problem is that to react to it, toss can shut down your options easier if he is also scouting. Anyways I disagree with them to say it's imbalanced so soon and I look forward to seeing how this evolves. Not looking forward to hitting it on the ladder again though. Part of the issue is that toss can get a quick stargate, make 1 void and a few phoenix, then do a 6-7 gate all-in follow up, or they can transition into VR/colossus. It's very difficult to scout at all during this window, since the first VR clears out all the nearby overlords.
If scouting the build is the biggest issue, then it's quite a different picture then what the show presented, since from what Artosis and Idra was saying it's the composition itself and not the difficulty of scouting it that makes it imbalanced.
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sorry I'm a noob but couldn't you just go mass muta off of 2.5 bases (get a third just for gas). I mean once you catch wind of this deathball being constructed?
Mutas do real well against void rays, don't have enough hp to build the charge, can deal with the ground army, and even do reasonably well against stalkers without blink. And won't the opponent have 0/0 stalkers too?
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On February 17 2011 14:28 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:22 Azarkon wrote:
Two base Protoss is not hard to scout. There is very little room to cover and the initial batch of mutalisks can easily fly in and force the Protoss to reveal his phoenixes. It's not like ZvT where one stray Thor shot or marine ball stim can ruin your whole game; Protoss does not have that kind of AoE against air until templar tech. Well yeah, the problem I see is that it's actually pretty obvious what toss is doing with a bit of scouting, the problem is that to react to it, toss can shut down your options easier if he is also scouting.
If the toss shuts down your options, he's also shutting down his own, because he's investing one way.
Let's say you suspect a DeathBall build. You try going Mutas, and get a few into his base..
If you see a lot of Stalkers or Sentries, he's not doing the death ball build (he doesn't have the gas to get a lot of anti-air gateway units AND a ton of Colos and VRs). Play normally.
If he doesn't scout it, and keeps making VR/Colo, continue making Mutalisks to hard counter until he smartens up or you win.
If he does scout and start going 2gate phoenix with Colo, stop making Mutas and start getting corrupters (and a proper ground army, of course). If he's going Phoenix, his VR count will be much lower, and he won't have much to deal with the corrupters.
If he does scout, and gets a lot of Stalkers and Sentries, I'm less sure how to deal with that, but it'll really eat in to his Colo/VR count, so it should still be easier to deal with than if you didn't force it.
Or something. I'm only a Platinum Zerg, and thus know nothing. But some kind of reaction to his reaction to your reaction to his build is probably how this is going to end up being solved. It's not an easy thing to beat, and you have to be smart and have good reactions and understand what the Protoss can and can't do off of two base.
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On February 17 2011 14:20 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:12 Jumbled wrote:On February 17 2011 14:05 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 13:44 Jumbled wrote:
I saw someone earlier complain about this game being a scouting win. Games are and should be won by good scouting. Scouting and denying scouting better than your opponent is a big part of what being a good RTS player is all about. Which still favors protoss, no? Observers, phoenix, overseers, hallucinate vs. overlords and overseers that are easier to spot and shoot down. Not at all. Both races have good scouting available. Overlords and overseers are easier to spot than observers, but much harder to shoot down. Hallucinate and changeling both provide a free unit that can scout the enemy base fairly well. Finally, there's nothing a phoenix scout can do that a zerg can't do just as effectively with a muta. Come on, the observer is easier to shoot down if you actually see a little blur vs. something that shows up on the minimap, seriously. And you are going to say a slow changeling is just as good to scout with as a hallucinated phoenix?? Phoenix and muta are really close but the phoenix is still faster.
Obs are really easy to spot. Especially if you zoom in and out its really noticable
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United States7483 Posts
This build gets demolished by very large numbers of corrupters: your entire army is in colossi+void rays, units that can't be reproduced easily, and are all hit by anti-air attacks. Protoss is on 2 bases, zerg can easily be on 4-5 by the time the deathball is ready to move out. Just sent a huge group of corrupters, then turn some of them into brood lords. I don't see the problem.
The only complaint I've heard so far is that it beats compositions that zerg players want to use. I was under the impression that zerg was a reactionary race, and wins games by tech swapping (since they have the easiest time of it) and re-maxing after trading armies. Shouldn't be difficult to get ~30 corrupters to deal with it off of 4-5 bases.
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On February 17 2011 15:29 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:28 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 14:22 Azarkon wrote:
Two base Protoss is not hard to scout. There is very little room to cover and the initial batch of mutalisks can easily fly in and force the Protoss to reveal his phoenixes. It's not like ZvT where one stray Thor shot or marine ball stim can ruin your whole game; Protoss does not have that kind of AoE against air until templar tech. Well yeah, the problem I see is that it's actually pretty obvious what toss is doing with a bit of scouting, the problem is that to react to it, toss can shut down your options easier if he is also scouting. If the toss shuts down your options, he's also shutting down his own, because he's investing one way. Let's say you suspect a DeathBall build. You try going Mutas, and get a few into his base.. If you see a lot of Stalkers or Sentries, he's not doing the death ball build (he doesn't have the gas to get a lot of anti-air gateway units AND a ton of Colos and VRs). Play normally. If he doesn't scout it, and keeps making VR/Colo, continue making Mutalisks to hard counter until he smartens up or you win. If he does scout and start going 2gate phoenix with Colo, stop making Mutas and start getting corrupters (and a proper ground army, of course). If he's going Phoenix, his VR count will be much lower, and he won't have much to deal with the corrupters. If he does scout, and gets a lot of Stalkers and Sentries, I'm less sure how to deal with that, but it'll really eat in to his Colo/VR count, so it should still be easier to deal with than if you didn't force it. Or something. I'm only a Platinum Zerg, and thus know nothing. But some kind of reaction to his reaction to your reaction to his build is probably how this is going to end up being solved. It's not an easy thing to beat, and you have to be smart and have good reactions and understand what the Protoss can and can't do off of two base.
Muta do not hard counter voids at all, the only do slightly well when its 20 muta vs 5 voids.
If a protoss can defend long enough to make a group of them, or even just add in 5 phoenix, that battle comes out vastly different. You forget that mutas kill voids fast before they get charged, but in larger numbers, they will always get a larger number charged and everything melts.
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On February 16 2011 12:02 cca1ss1e wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:59 ikarigendo wrote:
(disclaimer: I'm only a diamond player)
I agree with their proposed solution, that corrupters be buffed. Right now, corrupters are TERRIBLE against void rays, which is funny because corrupters can only attack air while voids can attack everything. Sure and phoenixes can't hit ground, but mutas can hit both.. :D
They don't need to hit ground though, you just lift all the units up and walk zealots underneath them so that when they fall you can attack them again. Problem solved.
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On February 17 2011 15:33 Whitewing wrote:
This build gets demolished by very large numbers of corrupters: your entire army is in colossi+void rays, units that can't be reproduced easily, and are all hit by anti-air attacks. Protoss is on 2 bases, zerg can easily be on 4-5 by the time the deathball is ready to move out. Just sent a huge group of corrupters, then turn some of them into brood lords. I don't see the problem.
The only complaint I've heard so far is that it beats compositions that zerg players want to use. I was under the impression that zerg was a reactionary race, and wins games by tech swapping (since they have the easiest time of it) and re-maxing after trading armies. Shouldn't be difficult to get ~30 corrupters to deal with it off of 4-5 bases.
Actually if you watch the video again they say there are ground units (mostly zealots) to support the colossi, too. If there are 10-15 zealots they can still do a lot of damage and your corruptors can just sit and watch. Also, to toss will most likely just switch to lots of stalkers (before or after losing his ball) and you have 60 supply sitting around uselessly.
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On February 17 2011 15:39 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 15:29 Ribbon wrote:On February 17 2011 14:28 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 14:22 Azarkon wrote:
Two base Protoss is not hard to scout. There is very little room to cover and the initial batch of mutalisks can easily fly in and force the Protoss to reveal his phoenixes. It's not like ZvT where one stray Thor shot or marine ball stim can ruin your whole game; Protoss does not have that kind of AoE against air until templar tech. Well yeah, the problem I see is that it's actually pretty obvious what toss is doing with a bit of scouting, the problem is that to react to it, toss can shut down your options easier if he is also scouting. If the toss shuts down your options, he's also shutting down his own, because he's investing one way. Let's say you suspect a DeathBall build. You try going Mutas, and get a few into his base.. If you see a lot of Stalkers or Sentries, he's not doing the death ball build (he doesn't have the gas to get a lot of anti-air gateway units AND a ton of Colos and VRs). Play normally. If he doesn't scout it, and keeps making VR/Colo, continue making Mutalisks to hard counter until he smartens up or you win. If he does scout and start going 2gate phoenix with Colo, stop making Mutas and start getting corrupters (and a proper ground army, of course). If he's going Phoenix, his VR count will be much lower, and he won't have much to deal with the corrupters. If he does scout, and gets a lot of Stalkers and Sentries, I'm less sure how to deal with that, but it'll really eat in to his Colo/VR count, so it should still be easier to deal with than if you didn't force it. Or something. I'm only a Platinum Zerg, and thus know nothing. But some kind of reaction to his reaction to your reaction to his build is probably how this is going to end up being solved. It's not an easy thing to beat, and you have to be smart and have good reactions and understand what the Protoss can and can't do off of two base. Muta do not hard counter voids at all, the only do slightly well when its 20 muta vs 5 voids. If a protoss can defend long enough to make a group of them, or even just add in 5 phoenix, that battle comes out vastly different. You forget that mutas kill voids fast before they get charged, but in larger numbers, they will always get a larger number charged and everything melts.
It is ridiculous to say that mutas "only do slightly well" when its 20 mutas vs. 5 voids. 20 mutas will simply demolish 5 voids, as shown in the Catz vs. Minigun series. You don't get 50 void rays off of two-bases and you certainly don't get a huge number while pumping colossi. Zerg should always be ahead by ~3x mutas to void rays and there is nothing stopping the Zerg from attacking before the Protoss hits 200/200. Forcing the Protoss to make mass Phoenixes or Stalkers to defend against Mutas means that much fewer Void Rays and Colossi, which then opens up options like Corrupters and Hydras.
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United States7483 Posts
Actually if you watch the video again they say there are ground units (mostly zealots) to support the colossi, too. If there are 10-15 zealots they can still do a lot of damage and your corruptors can just sit and watch. Also, to toss will most likely just switch to lots of stalkers (before or after losing his ball) and you have 60 supply sitting around uselessly.
The point is, it doesn't matter if he has ground forces after all the VR's and colossi are dead, because you can just walk over them as zerg on 4-5 bases with roach hydra or even just mass speedlings. Remember that toss has been turtling on 2 bases, he's likely dead broke in his main and running dry on his natural.
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EPT
