|
Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 08:12 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 07:59 Supah wrote:
Colossus/VR deathball takes a long time to get off the ground, doesn't it? This is like the reverse situation of an early expo Muta/Ling from Zerg- hit before it happens. There's a huge window between VR/Phoenix harass before the Toss can transition into Colossus. It's a snowballing build, and trading armies at any point up to the deathball puts the Toss way, way behind. You cannot compare attacking a Zerg going for a Muta-Build with the VR/Collo-Deathball, because: - MutaLing needs at least three bases to get into full swing, Deathball only 2. 2 bases are much easier to defend than 3, especially on certain Maps/Positions, where it's very hard to get a third. - MutaLing leaves open huge timings for the opponent to attack before the Mutas get out, a Deathball playing defensively on 2 bases absolutely cannot be attacked by a Zerg. Roach-timings get raped by VR's, Hydras are so slow it's almost impossible to attack with them and if they do, they get raped by Collos and Speedling-counters are out of the question as well. - You can't even cheese the Protoss, cuz every Toss that scouts and reacts well pwns 6-/7- and 10-pools, theres no real way to abuse burrow with roaches/infestors, cuz there will be defensive cannons up and if you try and go for Mutas, the Protoss cut's Collo/VR-Production and switches to Phoenix/Stalker, so that's out of the question as well. It's pretty much the safest build Protoss can do against Zerg and the strongest as well. The only reason why I wouldn't play it, is because it WILL get nerfed very soon (either by a Collo/VR-nerf or by a Corruptor-buff most likely), so playing this build will get you very easy wins, but it's so easy to play you won't learn anything from playing it. (I train with some Zerg that are much higher in the Ladder and I beat them offracing Protoss almost every game with this build) - MutaLing does well harrassing the opponent but looses in a straight-up fight, the Deathball does exactly the opposite. This means that even if you harrass the Toss to death, he can just leave the base and kill you.
I am almost certain that muta/ling start at 2 base then takes a 3rd when u have advantage
|
On February 17 2011 08:23 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 08:12 kickinhead wrote:On February 17 2011 07:59 Supah wrote:
Colossus/VR deathball takes a long time to get off the ground, doesn't it? This is like the reverse situation of an early expo Muta/Ling from Zerg- hit before it happens. There's a huge window between VR/Phoenix harass before the Toss can transition into Colossus. It's a snowballing build, and trading armies at any point up to the deathball puts the Toss way, way behind. You cannot compare attacking a Zerg going for a Muta-Build with the VR/Collo-Deathball, because: - MutaLing needs at least three bases to get into full swing, Deathball only 2. 2 bases are much easier to defend than 3, especially on certain Maps/Positions, where it's very hard to get a third. - MutaLing leaves open huge timings for the opponent to attack before the Mutas get out, a Deathball playing defensively on 2 bases absolutely cannot be attacked by a Zerg. Roach-timings get raped by VR's, Hydras are so slow it's almost impossible to attack with them and if they do, they get raped by Collos and Speedling-counters are out of the question as well. - You can't even cheese the Protoss, cuz every Toss that scouts and reacts well pwns 6-/7- and 10-pools, theres no real way to abuse burrow with roaches/infestors, cuz there will be defensive cannons up and if you try and go for Mutas, the Protoss cut's Collo/VR-Production and switches to Phoenix/Stalker, so that's out of the question as well. It's pretty much the safest build Protoss can do against Zerg and the strongest as well. The only reason why I wouldn't play it, is because it WILL get nerfed very soon (either by a Collo/VR-nerf or by a Corruptor-buff most likely), so playing this build will get you very easy wins, but it's so easy to play you won't learn anything from playing it. (I train with some Zerg that are much higher in the Ladder and I beat them offracing Protoss almost every game with this build) - MutaLing does well harrassing the opponent but looses in a straight-up fight, the Deathball does exactly the opposite. This means that even if you harrass the Toss to death, he can just leave the base and kill you. I am almost certain that muta/ling start at 2 base then takes a 3rd when u have advantage
it does, i don't think he knows what he is talking about.
muta/ling is a strong strategy and its stupid to say something like "well, muta won't work because it loses to a completely different build than the one discussed in the video". if you go muta and he goes colossus and you win, how is that different from him 6-gating your muta build and you losing from a balance perspective? both are strong build orders against what your opponent did and it comes down to scouting and micro.
if you can't prevent the player from winning with colossus despite going muta perfectly than thats another issue, but don't say you can't go muta because of some completely different build that is pretty strong against a muta build. just because 6-gate pushes exist does not make muta/ling not viable.
|
On February 17 2011 08:23 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 08:12 kickinhead wrote:On February 17 2011 07:59 Supah wrote:
Colossus/VR deathball takes a long time to get off the ground, doesn't it? This is like the reverse situation of an early expo Muta/Ling from Zerg- hit before it happens. There's a huge window between VR/Phoenix harass before the Toss can transition into Colossus. It's a snowballing build, and trading armies at any point up to the deathball puts the Toss way, way behind. You cannot compare attacking a Zerg going for a Muta-Build with the VR/Collo-Deathball, because: - MutaLing needs at least three bases to get into full swing, Deathball only 2. 2 bases are much easier to defend than 3, especially on certain Maps/Positions, where it's very hard to get a third. - MutaLing leaves open huge timings for the opponent to attack before the Mutas get out, a Deathball playing defensively on 2 bases absolutely cannot be attacked by a Zerg. Roach-timings get raped by VR's, Hydras are so slow it's almost impossible to attack with them and if they do, they get raped by Collos and Speedling-counters are out of the question as well. - You can't even cheese the Protoss, cuz every Toss that scouts and reacts well pwns 6-/7- and 10-pools, theres no real way to abuse burrow with roaches/infestors, cuz there will be defensive cannons up and if you try and go for Mutas, the Protoss cut's Collo/VR-Production and switches to Phoenix/Stalker, so that's out of the question as well. It's pretty much the safest build Protoss can do against Zerg and the strongest as well. The only reason why I wouldn't play it, is because it WILL get nerfed very soon (either by a Collo/VR-nerf or by a Corruptor-buff most likely), so playing this build will get you very easy wins, but it's so easy to play you won't learn anything from playing it. (I train with some Zerg that are much higher in the Ladder and I beat them offracing Protoss almost every game with this build) - MutaLing does well harrassing the opponent but looses in a straight-up fight, the Deathball does exactly the opposite. This means that even if you harrass the Toss to death, he can just leave the base and kill you. I am almost certain that muta/ling start at 2 base then takes a 3rd when u have advantage
It starts at 2 bases, but you'll definitely need a third right about at the time the Mutas get out to keep massing enough Units.
|
hmm i thought the same, the fact is idra didnt even mention it so it has probably something to deal with 2 stargates being able to make phoenix in no time and the toss alrdy making a lot of zealots
|
thanks to this show people on EU keep going for this strategy now and i cannot win a single zvp anymore
|
muta ling might work if the toss is garbage and doesn't scout for 1 second.
scenario 1: he scouts and doesn't see any corrupters (because youre saving for this miraculous muta/ling transition) he just a moves and kills you.
scenario 2: he scouts you going muta - HE HAS 2 STARGATES - and starts making phoenix with this VR/Collosus ball then a moves and kills you.
Muta/ling is not the answer..
|
On February 16 2011 09:09 1Eris1 wrote:
oh boyy here we go. Definetely my most hated unit combo
old quote but I thought you meant Idra + Artosis when I first read it :D too funny
|
is Zerg not allowed to attack until Protoss is maxed with the deathball?
|
On February 17 2011 09:02 The Icon wrote:
is Zerg not allowed to attack until Protoss is maxed with the deathball?
more like they cant atk protoss. forcefields and canons is all a toss needs and zerg will never break it without wasting a TON of resources. unless the toss just plain sucks.
|
On February 17 2011 09:04 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 09:02 The Icon wrote:
is Zerg not allowed to attack until Protoss is maxed with the deathball? more like they cant atk protoss. forcefields and canons is all a toss needs and zerg will never break it without wasting a TON of resources. unless the toss just plain sucks.
Have you tried a mass drop play? Bypasses the cannons, and makes the sentries less effective when your in open ground in the Toss main...
|
Not to repeat a broken record here, but mutas are really the answer... If they take out the voids, there is nothing protecting colossi/zealot force with token stalkers.
The key with mutas is their speed...they can fly around the voids to hit the colossi from behind. They can decimate the home base when the main army wonders out. In fact they can decimate a base while the main army is still in their nest as there are almost always holes in a base defense that mutas can exploit especially as they wait for voids to charge up.
Phoenix are not the counter to mutas...zerg make mutas like in batches of 10...you can't do the same with the phoenix plus the phoenix only barely beats the muta in 1 to 1 combat on a cost basis (counting glave). Never once seen a high level game where a protoss responded to mass muta with mass phoenix and fought it off.
Stalkers + Voids + Colossi + upgrades costs waaay to much gas. In fact as is, many protoss players have a tough time holding off muta builds with primarily stalkers because stalkers are so expensive and so much slower than the muta (blink is nice but doesn't balance the scales).
Idra and Artosis should have raised other possibilities besides this... Bombling drops are devestating vs protoss probes but zerg never seem interested in these as they always want to go roach/hydra or ling/muta. Voids clump which makes them susceptible to fungal growth. Not only does the damage add up (360 to 10 voids) but it keeps them from following/protecting the colossi. Really the best weapon zerg has is scouting and applying pressure to toss when they get greedy with this kind of tech tree as it is VERY expensive and takes a while to build up. A zerg can't think to himself...I'm always going to be 1d and overdrone because I'm zerg...he has to scout and make pressure attacks to exploit greedy toss from sitting on two bases for about 15 minutes just teching.
|
On February 17 2011 09:31 Seohce wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 09:04 Ballistixz wrote:On February 17 2011 09:02 The Icon wrote:
is Zerg not allowed to attack until Protoss is maxed with the deathball? more like they cant atk protoss. forcefields and canons is all a toss needs and zerg will never break it without wasting a TON of resources. unless the toss just plain sucks. Have you tried a mass drop play? Bypasses the cannons, and makes the sentries less effective when your in open ground in the Toss main...
Expensive upgrade, gl vs the counter attack after your drop fails.
|
I wasn't sure about the VR/Colossi thing either until last night.
Tried an experiment with a friend, just to see if it really was as IMBA as Artosis and IdrA claim.
So we just played a standard game, except that we decided neither of us would attack till he had the deathball up.( We only wanted to see if it was as unkillable as people claim) Deathball consisted of 18 VR/6 Colossi and a handfull of Sentry Zealot. I had Roach/Corruptor. (Probably about 16 Corruptors, with reinforcements available once my supply cleared up abit.)
I had actually thought I might try rushing upgrades on my units, since his comp is so gas heavy he wont have many upgrades. So I had +2/+2 for ground units and +2/+1 for air units. He had no upgrades except for thermal lance.
I threw a 200/200 army of Roach/Corruptor at him, which he killed. I then remaxed (with more corruptors than last time) and attacked again. His VR's killed everything in about 7 seconds, I remaxed again, even more corruptors, and that went down aswell. Rinse and repeat.
This comp really does feel a little OP against Z. After the first engagement where his VR's got charged, my remaxed armies just got destroyed in a matter of seconds by 15 charged VR's.....
Anyway, just a lowley obersvation, probably only a matter of time till someoen comes up with an effective counter build.
|
Mutalisks don't do anything to a Protoss with 2 fucking star gates up. 2 star gates up. And at least 3-4 gateways. People act like Toss would just a-move 6 colossi into a pack of mutas and be like, "Hurp, I guess I lose". No. Warp in a few cycles of stalkers and trade some phoenix in for voids (if even, its not even neccessary). Then just kill shit. And you can't harass a P on 2 bases with a forge. Maybe if he took a 3rd, but most P just all in at 200 food off 2 bases. I am not the best player ever, but I can mass 12-14 void rays, 6 colossi, and a gateway force to finish out my army cap (with 50~ish probes, you dont need full saturation) and just push through the Zergs bases as soon as I hit 200 food.
|
On February 17 2011 09:41 Fungal Growth wrote:
Not to repeat a broken record here, but mutas are really the answer... If they take out the voids, there is nothing protecting colossi/zealot force with token stalkers.
The key with mutas is their speed...they can fly around the voids to hit the colossi from behind. They can decimate the home base when the main army wonders out. In fact they can decimate a base while the main army is still in their nest as there are almost always holes in a base defense that mutas can exploit especially as they wait for voids to charge up.
Phoenix are not the counter to mutas...zerg make mutas like in batches of 10...you can't do the same with the phoenix plus the phoenix only barely beats the muta in 1 to 1 combat on a cost basis (counting glave). Never once seen a high level game where a protoss responded to mass muta with mass phoenix and fought it off.
Stalkers + Voids + Colossi + upgrades costs waaay to much gas. In fact as is, many protoss players have a tough time holding off muta builds with primarily stalkers because stalkers are so expensive and so much slower than the muta (blink is nice but doesn't balance the scales).
Idra and Artosis should have raised other possibilities besides this... Bombling drops are devestating vs protoss probes but zerg never seem interested in these as they always want to go roach/hydra or ling/muta. Voids clump which makes them susceptible to fungal growth. Not only does the damage add up (360 to 10 voids) but it keeps them from following/protecting the colossi. Really the best weapon zerg has is scouting and applying pressure to toss when they get greedy with this kind of tech tree as it is VERY expensive and takes a while to build up. A zerg can't think to himself...I'm always going to be 1d and overdrone because I'm zerg...he has to scout and make pressure attacks to exploit greedy toss from sitting on two bases for about 15 minutes just teching.
Uh... Phoenix are the HARD-COUNTER to mutalisks... Faster, more range, bonus against light. A single Phoenix can ACTUALLY kill infinity mutalisks notwithstanding a perfect muta surround, which is nearly impossible because phoenix are, again, faster units.
The reason you don't see pros respond to mass muta with Phoenix is because most zerg pros don't use mutalisks against toss, and when they do, the toss often doesn't NEED the phoenix because they already have enough anti-air up and running to deal with them.
|
This Episode is mostly about vt+colossus. My simple question is:
1.) why was there no opinion about mass muta tactic?
2.) is it possible to go air-only vs protoss (muta+corruptors)? this would make giant investment into colossus just useless. (if you scout his 2 base VR+colossus build).
3.) what about early all-in to prevent protoss exp?
|
Please note that IdrA and Artosis were the ones who said that Mutas were once considered "imba" against Protoss until Protoss figured out the 6-gate push. This build here is by definition not a 6-gate push, so there is no reason why Mutas should be considered a no-go option. At the very least the option should be explored beyond the "mutas lolwut" stage of discussion; the dispute should not end on people who insist on using corrupters against void rays - the Blizzard-intended counter to corrupters.
|
On February 17 2011 10:31 fds wrote:
This Episode is mostly about vt+colossus. My simple question is:
1.) why was there no opinion about mass muta tactic?
2.) is it possible to go air-only vs protoss (muta+corruptors)? this would make giant investment into colossus just useless. (if you scout his 2 base VR+colossus build).
3.) what about early all-in to prevent protoss exp?
The same reason everyone goes roach/hydra usually? If protoss sees you making a decent number of mutas, they can make a decent number of phoenix.
|
for those stating the fact that he can make phoenix
1. It will make the death ball strength
2. may not be cost effective but the mutas would still kill the vr collosi build with phoenix added in.
if they start massing phoenix than you rebuild ground units
Idk hopefully artosis and Idra can help settle this for us next week
|
On February 17 2011 07:59 Supah wrote:
Colossus/VR deathball takes a long time to get off the ground, doesn't it? This is like the reverse situation of an early expo Muta/Ling from Zerg- hit before it happens. There's a huge window between VR/Phoenix harass before the Toss can transition into Colossus. It's a snowballing build, and trading armies at any point up to the deathball puts the Toss way, way behind.
how do you take advantage of the window when
1. you have no "busting" units to attack with
2. they are turtled on 2 bases behind cannons and gateway units with vr support, to even attempt to push you would need a grip of hydras or corrupters, hydras will set you up for the worst fml moment ever while corrupters just take to long to mass up.
imo the best way to crush this army comp is ultralisk/baneling and either corrupter, muta, hydras or mass queen.
the only problem is your gonna need a grip of gas and time to realize that army.
my personal build to combat this style of play by toss is to go mass lings, get a lair up and start upgrading melee attack and carapace get banelings, transition into muta but only get a few to try and pin toss in his base all the while upgrading to hive for ultralisks. the best case scenario is that i can pin the toss back long enough to get 3-4 ultras with speed bane support for zealots and 5-6 corrupters for anti air. this comp works really fucking good if you can get it out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
