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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 05:57 dark fury wrote:
Because zerg is at a massive economic advantage and has tons of larvae in this case? do i even have to explain to you how the zerg mechanics work? there is no way a protoss on TWO bases is gonna be able to tech switch and re-max according to the zerg unit compositon when a zerg has a huge economical advantage.
Man what the hell is "massive economic advantage"? xD I sometimes wondering what game some of you, who say such nonsense, are playing? Usually toss has more probes than zerg drones, and if the zerg really good he may have a few more.
On February 17 2011 05:57 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:55 Alpina wrote:On February 17 2011 05:49 dark fury wrote:
This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do?
Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will
1. kill you right away with a 6 gate
2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
2. You dont have to show your mutalisks to him, you dont even have to produce them until you see that he is starting to move out with his void ray colossus force. and if he tries to mass phoenix you can switch to a ground based army and kill him. A protoss on 2 bases can not afford to tech switch or change his unit composition very effectivley, but a zerg on 4-5 bases CAN. Well you can't hide mutas if toss has stargate - he will be flying around with void/phoenixes and killing stuff around. And yes, you can stockpile resources until last minute and then build ~20+ muta but that won't work in high lvl game. Toss understand that you don't invest your gas anywhere and also he can just fly around and kill stuff with void rays, so you need mobile AA anyways. Btw why everyone talking only about 2 base toss, most toss gets quickly 3rd base and you can't really punish that especially on maps like shakuras. Because the show is about the two base build. Three bases would stretch the Protoss thin and make it a lot easier to exploit the need for this death ball to stay together in order to work, as either VRs or Colossi by themselves are easily picked off.
Well okey, but you just made that sound like 3 base toss is not a problem at all while it's even more stronger imo.
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On February 17 2011 06:02 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:57 dark fury wrote:
Because zerg is at a massive economic advantage and has tons of larvae in this case? do i even have to explain to you how the zerg mechanics work? there is no way a protoss on TWO bases is gonna be able to tech switch and re-max according to the zerg unit compositon when a zerg has a huge economical advantage.
We are discussing a TWO BASE PROTOSS vs 4-5 BASE ZERG. of COURSE the zerg is gonna be able to respond and tech switch according to what the protoss does.
You can't just give Zerg an economical advantage out of nowhere. 2 Base Protoss can support up to 44 drones at ~100% mining rate and another 16 (60) at reduced mining rates which is getting close to the general # of workers you see in a game (granted it's much less gas though). Zerg meanwhile can't just go out and mass expand right away because they need to be able to confirm things like you aren't going 4 gate, you aren't going 6 gate, etc. It takes a while for the economic superiority of Zerg to kick in if Protoss early expands. Either because it's a 3 gate expand and Zerg can't grab a 3rd until they confirm the expand or because it's forge FE and Zerg can't really hatch first vs forge FE (at least not without having really really good unit control). Zerg will almost always have a higher resource income around the time of a big 2 base P push, but it's not a long term advantage and is usually one they've obtained relatively recently so their total mined still hasn't surpassed the P's to a significant amount.
This episode of imbalanced was about 2base voidray colossus. Idra and Artosis said themselves that zerg is usualy able to take 4-5bases in this case, wich means the zerg WILL have a huge advantage in econ. Did you even watch the episode? have you even played agains this build? because you are talking about completley different scenarios here.
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Man what the hell is "massive economic advantage"? xD I sometimes wondering what game some of you, who say such nonsense, are playing? Usually toss has more probes than zerg drones, and if the zerg really good he may have a few more.
im wondering if you even watched the episode. When a Protoss does this build, he will be behind in economy because he is TURTELING ON TWO BASES while the zerg can expand all over the map. Go watch the episode.
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When you play Starcraft 2, there is a button called "help". Click on it with a mouse or press F12. Click on a "protoss units" button. Click on a "void ray" button. You will see the following:
strong against: corruptor
weak against: mutalisk
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/nCTlg.jpg)
I hope this helps.
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Is the show canceled once IdrA leaves? Or will it be like a streamed show? :D
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That episode was pretty painful to watch. Since you purely discussed unit compositions and not over arching strategy, I will address it as such.
Corruptors are not supposed to beat voidrays.
Voidrays are specifically designed to kill high hp armoured units like corruptors.
Corruptors are designed to kill massive units and light air, such as colossus and phoenix.
The air balance in PvZ is as follows:
Corruptors > Phoenix/Carrier
Voidray > Corruptor
Mutalisk > Voidray
Phoenix/Carrier >Mutalisk
Why the hell did you spend half the episode going "herp derp why mass corruptor not working?".
The whole episode reminded me of how Tasteless jokes about the newbies asking questions like "How do you beat mass Voidray, Colossus?"
Tasteless says: "Well you just don't let them get that much stuff, maybe you should go back to learning the hotkeys."
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It has already been established that mass mutas beat a vr/colossi/zealot composition, or even a vr/colossi/stalker composition when there aren't enough stalkers. What is not established is whether Protoss can add sufficient numbers of stalkers and/or phoenixes without breaking the potency of his death ball, or to transition out of colossi/vr once they scout mutas (unlikely in my opinion, since you abandon 6-gate the moment you put down the robo and star gates).
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I'm actually glad the VR has re-entered the IMBA discussion.
Two points they touched base on, that is the crux of this argument, is that ...
(1) The DPS of a Colossus/VR ball with Warpgate support is - to put it frankly - instant death to anything that is in range of the deathball. Let's refer to this ball as the CVR+ Ball
(2) The CVR+ ball is incredibly mobile. For all intents and purposes, it is essentially a mass air build. Sure, the colossus cannot climb some cliffs, nor pass over chasms, but both units are essentially terrain independent and have a relatively fast movement speed.
This army is going to roll you, and then systematically destroy every expansion you have so easy.
I actually think there are some fundamental things about the game that will change in the future to address some of the balance issues. I'm not necessarily sure if this will be "nerfs" or "buffs" as much as it will be: new units, new upgrades, new mechanics, and things of this nature.
Now, you won't actually see any of that until the expansion(s) comes, so any balance issues will probably be addressed by Nerf/Buff until then, which I believe will most likely be ineffective when addressing Protoss.
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On February 17 2011 06:17 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm actually glad the VR has re-entered the IMBA discussion.
Two points they touched base on, that is the crux of this argument, is that ...
(1) The DPS of a Colossus/VR ball with Warpgate support is - to put it frankly - instant death to anything that is in range of the deathball. Let's refer to this ball as the CVR+ Ball
(2) The CVR+ ball is incredibly mobile. For all intents and purposes, it is essentially a mass air build. Sure, the colossus cannot climb some cliffs, nor pass over chasms, but both units are essentially terrain independent and have a relatively fast movement speed.
This army is going to roll you, and then systematically destroy every expansion you have so easy.
I actually think there are some fundamental things about the game that will change in the future to address some of the balance issues. I'm not necessarily sure if this will be "nerfs" or "buffs" as much as it will be: new units, new upgrades, new mechanics, and things of this nature.
Now, you won't actually see any of that until the expansion(s) comes, so any balance issues will probably be addressed by Nerf/Buff until then, which I believe will most likely be ineffective when addressing Protoss.
VRs and Colossi are mobile, but their gateway support units are not. A lot of this debate comes down to the support units because if you buy Artosis and Idra's argument, it's the Protoss ability to tailor his support units that make this composition "unbeatable."
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On February 17 2011 06:11 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +
Man what the hell is "massive economic advantage"? xD I sometimes wondering what game some of you, who say such nonsense, are playing? Usually toss has more probes than zerg drones, and if the zerg really good he may have a few more.
im wondering if you even watched the episode. When a Protoss does this build, he will be behind in economy because he is TURTELING ON TWO BASES while the zerg can expand all over the map. Go watch the episode.
Again Zerg cannot immediately expand everywhere until he knows he's against a turtle strat. Yes he'll be on 4-5 bases, yes he'll have 10-20 worker advantage, but that's not a MASSIVE ECONOMICAL LEAD because it'll take a while to happen. The only time where zerg will have a great economic lead is if they properly read and scout the strat based off intuition and drone through the 6 gate timing rather than preparing the necessary forces to not die if Protoss moves out. Against forge FE it still takes about 7-8 minutes for the Zerg to take the economic lead off 3 bases and from there the amount of lead they take depends on how well they read the Protoss' intentions as that's the time where Protoss can move out with VRs, DTs, or a gateway force so the Zerg needs to devout larva to protection of that.
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On February 17 2011 06:13 Mozicelj wrote:When you play Starcraft 2, there is a button called " help". Click on it with a mouse or press F12. Click on a "protoss units" button. Click on a " void ray" button. You will see the following: strong against: corruptor
weak against: mutaliskI hope this helps.
Ahahah I love you man!!
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On February 17 2011 06:13 Mozicelj wrote:When you play Starcraft 2, there is a button called " help". Click on it with a mouse or press F12. Click on a "protoss units" button. Click on a " void ray" button. You will see the following: strong against: corruptor
weak against: mutaliskI hope this helps.
always great when people with 1 post try to "argue" with guys like Artosis and Idra like they don't understand sc2. -.-
why would builing mutas do any good against this strategy considering P will have lots of colossi
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On February 17 2011 06:21 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:17 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm actually glad the VR has re-entered the IMBA discussion.
Two points they touched base on, that is the crux of this argument, is that ...
(1) The DPS of a Colossus/VR ball with Warpgate support is - to put it frankly - instant death to anything that is in range of the deathball. Let's refer to this ball as the CVR+ Ball
(2) The CVR+ ball is incredibly mobile. For all intents and purposes, it is essentially a mass air build. Sure, the colossus cannot climb some cliffs, nor pass over chasms, but both units are essentially terrain independent and have a relatively fast movement speed.
This army is going to roll you, and then systematically destroy every expansion you have so easy.
I actually think there are some fundamental things about the game that will change in the future to address some of the balance issues. I'm not necessarily sure if this will be "nerfs" or "buffs" as much as it will be: new units, new upgrades, new mechanics, and things of this nature.
Now, you won't actually see any of that until the expansion(s) comes, so any balance issues will probably be addressed by Nerf/Buff until then, which I believe will most likely be ineffective when addressing Protoss. VRs and Colossi are mobile, but their gateway support units are not. A lot of this debate comes down to the support units because if you buy Artosis and Idra's argument, it's the Protoss ability to tailor his support units that make this composition "unbeatable."
Gateway units are mobile man. Stalkers are mobile. Zealots are cheap and can get warped in where-ever, so not a big deal.
If there was any colossus nerf impending, it should be a speed nerf if anything. It's certainly expensive and fragile enough to justify its damage. But how mobile it is? I don't know about that. The exact same thought process works for void rays, and they got their speed upgrade removed.
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On February 17 2011 06:26 Markus138 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:13 Mozicelj wrote:When you play Starcraft 2, there is a button called " help". Click on it with a mouse or press F12. Click on a "protoss units" button. Click on a " void ray" button. You will see the following: strong against: corruptor
weak against: mutaliskI hope this helps. always great when people with 1 post try to "argue" with guys like Artosis and Idra like they don't understand sc2. -.- why would builing mutas do any good against this strategy considering P will have lots of colossi
because colossus is known for hard countering mutalisks, or what?
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On February 17 2011 04:01 imareaver3 wrote:
How do you get enough gas for corrupters, infestors, and double upgrades, while still being able to maintain constant roach production while being able to survive timing attacks?
Wait, what?
I thought this strat didn't have timing attacks. Isn't it turtling until you get the deathball (and some void ray play to kill overlords close to your base)?
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On February 17 2011 06:27 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:21 Azarkon wrote:On February 17 2011 06:17 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm actually glad the VR has re-entered the IMBA discussion.
Two points they touched base on, that is the crux of this argument, is that ...
(1) The DPS of a Colossus/VR ball with Warpgate support is - to put it frankly - instant death to anything that is in range of the deathball. Let's refer to this ball as the CVR+ Ball
(2) The CVR+ ball is incredibly mobile. For all intents and purposes, it is essentially a mass air build. Sure, the colossus cannot climb some cliffs, nor pass over chasms, but both units are essentially terrain independent and have a relatively fast movement speed.
This army is going to roll you, and then systematically destroy every expansion you have so easy.
I actually think there are some fundamental things about the game that will change in the future to address some of the balance issues. I'm not necessarily sure if this will be "nerfs" or "buffs" as much as it will be: new units, new upgrades, new mechanics, and things of this nature.
Now, you won't actually see any of that until the expansion(s) comes, so any balance issues will probably be addressed by Nerf/Buff until then, which I believe will most likely be ineffective when addressing Protoss. VRs and Colossi are mobile, but their gateway support units are not. A lot of this debate comes down to the support units because if you buy Artosis and Idra's argument, it's the Protoss ability to tailor his support units that make this composition "unbeatable." Gateway units are mobile man. Stalkers are mobile. Zealots are cheap and can get warped in where-ever, so not a big deal. If there was any colossus nerf impending, it should be a speed nerf if anything. It's certainly expensive and fragile enough to justify its damage. But how mobile it is? I don't know about that. The exact same thought process works for void rays, and they got their speed upgrade removed.
Colossi are already the same speed as hydras off creep (2.25) so I dunno how well it does to call them mobile. They mostly are locally mobile with the ability to walk over units and up cliffs which makes them great at repositioning.
On February 17 2011 06:27 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 04:01 imareaver3 wrote:
How do you get enough gas for corrupters, infestors, and double upgrades, while still being able to maintain constant roach production while being able to survive timing attacks? Wait, what? I thought this strat didn't have timing attacks. Isn't it turtling until you get the deathball (and some void ray play to kill overlords close to your base)?
You don't pre-emptively know there's no timing attacks. As zerg you still need to prepare for them. In this case it'd be a 6-gate, void ray, and pheonix timings that you'd need to prepare for (depending on scouting info). Possibly a blink stalker or 4 gate would be a concern as well depending on the P opening.
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On February 17 2011 06:28 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:27 DoubleReed wrote:On February 17 2011 06:21 Azarkon wrote:On February 17 2011 06:17 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm actually glad the VR has re-entered the IMBA discussion.
Two points they touched base on, that is the crux of this argument, is that ...
(1) The DPS of a Colossus/VR ball with Warpgate support is - to put it frankly - instant death to anything that is in range of the deathball. Let's refer to this ball as the CVR+ Ball
(2) The CVR+ ball is incredibly mobile. For all intents and purposes, it is essentially a mass air build. Sure, the colossus cannot climb some cliffs, nor pass over chasms, but both units are essentially terrain independent and have a relatively fast movement speed.
This army is going to roll you, and then systematically destroy every expansion you have so easy.
I actually think there are some fundamental things about the game that will change in the future to address some of the balance issues. I'm not necessarily sure if this will be "nerfs" or "buffs" as much as it will be: new units, new upgrades, new mechanics, and things of this nature.
Now, you won't actually see any of that until the expansion(s) comes, so any balance issues will probably be addressed by Nerf/Buff until then, which I believe will most likely be ineffective when addressing Protoss. VRs and Colossi are mobile, but their gateway support units are not. A lot of this debate comes down to the support units because if you buy Artosis and Idra's argument, it's the Protoss ability to tailor his support units that make this composition "unbeatable." Gateway units are mobile man. Stalkers are mobile. Zealots are cheap and can get warped in where-ever, so not a big deal. If there was any colossus nerf impending, it should be a speed nerf if anything. It's certainly expensive and fragile enough to justify its damage. But how mobile it is? I don't know about that. The exact same thought process works for void rays, and they got their speed upgrade removed. Colossi are already the same speed as hydras off creep (2.25) so I dunno how well it does to call them mobile. They mostly are locally mobile with the ability to walk over units and up cliffs which makes them great at repositioning.
Sorry, comparatively mobile. Considering that hydras aren't nearly as deadly and more fragile, one would think they would at least have a mobility advantage over the colossus. But they don't. I'm saying that for its power, the Colossus is quite mobile. Compare it to the Siege Tank, which has to stop moving, or Brood Lords, which are way way slower.
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On February 17 2011 06:31 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:28 Logo wrote:On February 17 2011 06:27 DoubleReed wrote:On February 17 2011 06:21 Azarkon wrote:On February 17 2011 06:17 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm actually glad the VR has re-entered the IMBA discussion.
Two points they touched base on, that is the crux of this argument, is that ...
(1) The DPS of a Colossus/VR ball with Warpgate support is - to put it frankly - instant death to anything that is in range of the deathball. Let's refer to this ball as the CVR+ Ball
(2) The CVR+ ball is incredibly mobile. For all intents and purposes, it is essentially a mass air build. Sure, the colossus cannot climb some cliffs, nor pass over chasms, but both units are essentially terrain independent and have a relatively fast movement speed.
This army is going to roll you, and then systematically destroy every expansion you have so easy.
I actually think there are some fundamental things about the game that will change in the future to address some of the balance issues. I'm not necessarily sure if this will be "nerfs" or "buffs" as much as it will be: new units, new upgrades, new mechanics, and things of this nature.
Now, you won't actually see any of that until the expansion(s) comes, so any balance issues will probably be addressed by Nerf/Buff until then, which I believe will most likely be ineffective when addressing Protoss. VRs and Colossi are mobile, but their gateway support units are not. A lot of this debate comes down to the support units because if you buy Artosis and Idra's argument, it's the Protoss ability to tailor his support units that make this composition "unbeatable." Gateway units are mobile man. Stalkers are mobile. Zealots are cheap and can get warped in where-ever, so not a big deal. If there was any colossus nerf impending, it should be a speed nerf if anything. It's certainly expensive and fragile enough to justify its damage. But how mobile it is? I don't know about that. The exact same thought process works for void rays, and they got their speed upgrade removed. Colossi are already the same speed as hydras off creep (2.25) so I dunno how well it does to call them mobile. They mostly are locally mobile with the ability to walk over units and up cliffs which makes them great at repositioning. Sorry, comparatively mobile. Considering that hydras aren't nearly as deadly and more fragile, one would think they would at least have a mobility advantage over the colossus. But they don't. I'm saying that for its power, the Colossus is quite mobile. Compare it to the Siege Tank, which has to stop moving, or Brood Lords, which are way way slower.
Well uh creep exists so I wouldn't say they don't have a mobility advantage.
I agree with your clarification though. For their power and range colossi are quite mobile.
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Colossi are mobile because they can walk up cliffs and walk over units. But Colossus is fine, if blizzard wanted to nerf it they would have done it already.
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On February 17 2011 06:34 dark fury wrote:
Colossi are mobile because they can walk up cliffs and walk over units. But Colossus is fine, if blizzard wanted to nerf it they would have done it already.
No, collosi are mobile because they are fast.
The fact that it walks cliffs just shortens the walking distance.
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EPT
