EPTThey should make corruptors slow or something nice...(pretty sure this has already been said)
Keep the podcast at 1 h it's awesome :D
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 28
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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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Fredoq
Sweden206 Posts
They should make corruptors slow or something nice...(pretty sure this has already been said) Keep the podcast at 1 h it's awesome :D | ||
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DamnCats
United States1472 Posts
As for beating this composition, mutas and lings are obviously the answer. You can run around claiming that he can FF, but an army of stalkers, sentries, void rays and colossi is the most unrealistic thing i've ever heard of. So, were you... arguing with IdrA and Artosis with that quote? Because the rest of your post seems like you don't quite agree, and then we get this... I hate to break it to you but an army of stalker sentry VR and collosus happens just about every day, multiple times. Also I can't help but laugh at your suggestion that ling/muta is the "obvious" answer, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not because of how ridiculous that statement is. I know that statement is ridiculous because me, being the mediocre masters zerg I am, have first hand knowledge of what happens when you try to make zerglings against a protoss army with even 1 collosus. It's somewhat of a... whats the word that comes to mind... bloodbath. | ||
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Gitch
United Kingdom27 Posts
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Protein
United States132 Posts
On February 17 2011 04:46 DamnCats wrote: So, were you... arguing with IdrA and Artosis with that quote? Because the rest of your post seems like you don't quite agree, and then we get this... I hate to break it to you but an army of stalker sentry VR and collosus happens just about every day, multiple times. Also I can't help but laugh at your suggestion that ling/muta is the "obvious" answer, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not because of how ridiculous that statement is. I know that statement is ridiculous because me, being the mediocre masters zerg I am, have first hand knowledge of what happens when you try to make zerglings against a protoss army with even 1 collosus. It's somewhat of a... whats the word that comes to mind... bloodbath. Have you ever seen a lot of mutas in a ball tear through the limited stalkers, sentries and vrays they have? The army happens, yes, and it does well because zerg seem to contineu to mass roaches and hydras despite colossi being the counter to hydras. Zerg players long ago learned not to pull hydras out against tnaks yet they insist on doing it vs colossus, and the fact that hydras don't tear through not only gateway units but also every robotics unit, and every stargate unit, seems to annoy them. A large pack of mutalisks will tear through 4 colossi with ease. The zerglings are then free to run in. An army of vrays, stalkers, colossi and sentries is so gas heavy that you should have a retarded amount of mutalisks at that point. And I assure you, once the colossi are down the lings will tear that army a new asshole. Going mutas also puts an enormous strain on his economy because, another thing thye barely talked about is the immobility of the army. Even if the army only needs two bases, it's easy to snipe pylons and probes. If they build cannons, you're still containing them, and this allows for map control. I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. Another option is mutalisk/ultra/zergling. Before we rave about how much gas that is, let's look at the protoss army we're talking about here. Let me draw out a hypothetical army just to nail my point in. Let's say the protoss moves out with 5 sentries, 10 zealots, 10 stalkers, 4 colossi and 4 vrays. Let's look at how much this army costs. 50/100 x5 + 10 x 100 + 125/50 x 10 + 300/200 x 4 + 250/150 x 4. We won't count upgrades, or the fact that branching out two different tech trees for the protoss is difficult and very expensive. That comes out to a total of 4700/ 2400 Now let me emphasize something here. An army of 24 mutalisks (2400/2400) will tear this army a new asshole. No question about it. The stalkers/sentries would melt like they weren't even there, and then the rest of the army would be easy pickings. So there you go. Open roach, and then go into mutalisk and harass. This isn't even counting the fact that you'll have map control, will have lots of spare minerals to either get mass lings or expand everywhere and abuse the immobility of the army, and will probably rape probes and pylons every which way. Also, with 24 mutalisks you still have 2300 minerals to spend. You also have spent less gas on research and tech. So go crazy! | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 17 2011 04:59 Gitch wrote: Corrupters already counter every Protoss air unit. Giving them a buff is a therefore a ridiculous idea and it will never happen without rebalancing Protoss air. From a realistic point of view the only zerg unit I can think of that could be buffed in P v Z is the infestor, or the ultra (since its counters are t2). I agree I think corruptors are fine, the problem is with collosus and hydra. Upgraded collosus kills hydra in 2 shot with splash so that's insane damage. Imo collossus damage could be nerfed, for example upgrades add +1 instead of +2, and hydra could be buffed. I would like to see hydra having +1 armor by default. | ||
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DamnCats
United States1472 Posts
I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. | ||
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Protein
United States132 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:09 DamnCats wrote: So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
I mean it hasn't been a secret that Zerg has trouble with the "Deathball", but while watching the show it seemed to me that this 2base, colossus+VR build has been around for maybe 3 weeks and Idra and Artosis know 100% for sure that it is "unbeatable". I am by no means a good player but maxing an army made of colossi and void rays from 2 bases while being defensive without allowing the Zerg to get 4 bases running, sounds not too realistic to me. Furthermore, Idra and Artosis pointed out how some things take time to get figured out and that because of this we all should be careful with the imbalanced-verdict. I wonder why this doesn't apply in this situation? Some zerg players in here stated that they deal well with this strategy, at the Assembly LAN we had 2 zergs in the finals. And now Idra and Artosis come along and proclaim out of nowhere that this strategy is unbeatable? I still enjoyed the show, as well as the previous ones, but this time it seems the conclusion was reached a little too fast. So TvP lategame is balanced, because Terran will just have to figure out how to use mech properly and all balance issues are resolved? Why does this logic not apply in this case, I wonder. I was expecting too see a talk about blink-stalker versus zerg, because from watching Idra's stream it seems to be quite hard to deal with. But this upset about this relatively new development is a bit too much. SC2 is so young and volatile. We will have this "OMG this is new, I don't know how to beat this"-moments for a while I guess, until some cookie-cutter strategies have emerged so that the match-ups become more stable. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:11 Protein wrote: Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On February 17 2011 04:45 Fredoq wrote: Seems like Voidray/collusus ball is the new Sair/Reaver build! Hell no! Sair/Reaver required a lot of Multitasking, good Micro, very high APM and even the tiniest mistake cost you the game - The sc2 deathball is very easy to execute. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
1. Colossi/VR/gateway support is imbalanced because the composition is unbeatable by a maxed Zerg army and once you've lost your army chipping away at the death ball is impossible because the DPS of the death ball is too high. 2. Protoss can easily turtle on two bases until they get the death ball, so there's no way to pressure the Protoss enough to stop the death ball from being built. 3. Counter-builds (only two are given) do not work, because while Corrupters defeat the Colossi and VRs, they will lose to the ground support and Protoss can easily adjust their composition. Zerglings queens and ultras do not work because the build is fragile and Protoss can scout it and do a timing push. Zerg cannot react in this situation because they over-committed on queens. Most of the show was spent on talking about #3, which is fine except only two strategies are actually considered. No justification is given for why only these two strategies are considered, and yet at the end of the video the verdict is given that the build is imbalanced because the two strategies considered cannot beat it. In rhetoric, this is called "argument by lack of imagination." While it maybe clear to Artosis and Idra and other pro-gamers why no other builds can possibly work, it is not clear to the bulk of their audience, including very possibly Blizzard. If the purpose of the Imbalance show is to speak only to elite pro-gamers, why even try to promote it as a public show? It's no surprise that this thread has been filled with complaints about Mutas and Infestors never being considered - because the show doesn't even attempt to consider them and simply assumes that everyone agrees, a prior, that mass corrupters and zergling queen ultras are the only viable counters. Besides this rhetorical issue, the show is also too abstract for a game like SC 2, in which execution is key. Artosis and Idra ends up repeating their points over and over because they really have no other way of approaching the discussion, and this is a weakness. I feel like it would be much more effective if Artosis and Idra would show an actual game in which the build is used. Visual aids help immensely, especially when you're trying to convince people of a nebulous strategy like "two-base colossi/vr + support" that could have many different variations and timings. It'd also help to actually examine the units in question - since one of the major points of this episode is that colossi/void ray is unbeatable (with support), why wouldn't you do do some test ball vs. ball battles with the unit editor to prove your point? That would strengthen the argument immensely. Anyways, it remains to be seen whether this build truly is imbalanced, but the bottomline is that watching the show did not make me convinced. It is of course not Artosis and Idra's job to convince the masses that a build is imbalanced. But for a discussion to be useful to the audience, it must be grounded in more than the presenters' credentials. I do not question that Artosis and Idra have a far better grasp of the game than me or most other people on this thread, but if you cannot communicate this understanding to the rest of us, then the show is not very useful. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote: So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? maybe he doesn't know about guardian shield? Going from 9/3/1 (8/2/1 vs 1 armor) to 6/1/1 is uh really fucking huge (40% dmg reduction, 30% vs units with 1 armor) and mutas already do very poorly vs stalkers. It's funny listening to all the Protoss players. It's like they don't realize zerg doesn't have the luxury of flexible openings. Against expand builds if you don't gear towards roach and/or hydra in the mid game (mutas occasionally work, but have other issues) then you'll fail vs a 6 gate or other gateway centric pushes that use a more moderate mix of robo/stargate units. The reason why the roach/hydra/corruptor style stuff was the only thing considered was because by the time you can scout and confirm vr/colossi you're already going down that path and there's a huge cost to switching it up. | ||
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dark fury
Sweden426 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote: So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? Of course you can kill his AA, mutas beat stalker/voidrays pretty easily and since the protoss is only on 2 bases with 2 stargates, he cant proce enough phoenix to posses without sacrifising ground forces. again, if the protoss is on 2 you can easily pump out enough mutas to break his anti air. with 6-8 geysers gas wont be a problem so dont whine about gas costs. Also, Colossus DPS is fine. They counter hydras effectivley and thats what they are intended to do, but noone is forcing you to build hydras. Roaches are really good versus colossus, especially in this situation where the protoss wont have a large sentry count. Stop the QQ already Edit: Mutas do not perform poorly against stalkers. Stalkers scale horribly with upgrades and in the later phase of the game, a critical amount of mutas will just tear through any amount of stalkers, even with guardian sheild. Protoss needs storm to handle that wich is something he wont be able to get out of two bases while at the same time keeping up a production of colossi and void rays. | ||
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Makavw
Croatia165 Posts
The thing about this build is that its opening is great against anything and they have production facilites for all protoss units (well apart templars) - combined with extremly easy scouting of protoss. Most of the toss that do it will get hallucanation really early meaning that they can know what you are doing for the huge part of the game. So if you go pure roach they make immortals instead of collosus, if you go mutas - they just chrono pohenix and focus on stalker/sentry. If they see you make hydras --> chrono collosus. Getting 20+ mutas which somone is suggesting is only dooable if you start early on mutas, if you start early on mutas you lose to any kind of mid game pressure. And if you switch to mutas midgame for harass ... well check how it went for dimaga vs nani :D http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/3989-mtwdimaga-vs-nani,metalopolis | ||
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Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:35 Turbo.Tactics wrote: Just make neural parasite a nonchanneled spell = solved :D Or why not make fungal do direct HP dmg, like Plague did in star1.... why does no1 notice that fungal just sucks against Toss but thefix would be soooo easy.... That way, Zerg could stall and chip away at the deathball, exactly whats needed for balance-reasons! | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:31 dark fury wrote: Edit: Mutas do not perform poorly against stalkers. Stalkers scale horribly with upgrades and in the later phase of the game, a critical amount of mutas will just tear through any amount of stalkers, even with guardian sheild. Protoss needs storm to handle that wich is something he wont be able to get out of two bases while at the same time keeping up a production of colossi and void rays. Mutas and stalkers scale the exact same. A 3 armored stalker takes the same damage from a 3 weapon muta as a 0/0 fight if guardian shield is around (all bounce damage = 1 damage). Also why would anyone stick to colossi void ray if there are/were 20+ mutas around. Stalkers only scale poorly vs armored units and as supporting dps vs units with lesser armor upgrades or vs mutas without guardian shield. | ||
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Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:37 kickinhead wrote: Or why not make fungal do direct HP dmg, like Plague did in star1.... why does no1 notice that fungal just sucks against Toss but thefix would be soooo easy.... That would make archons totally useless again... | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:31 dark fury wrote: Of course you can kill his AA, mutas beat stalker/voidrays pretty easily and since the protoss is only on 2 bases with 2 stargates, he cant proce enough phoenix to posses without sacrifising ground forces. again, if the protoss is on 2 you can easily pump out enough mutas to break his anti air. with 6-8 geysers gas wont be a problem so dont whine about gas costs. Also, Colossus DPS is fine. They counter hydras effectivley and thats what they are intended to do, but noone is forcing you to build hydras. Roaches are really good versus colossus, especially in this situation where the protoss wont have a large sentry count. Stop the QQ already Edit: Mutas do not perform poorly against stalkers. Stalkers scale horribly with upgrades and in the later phase of the game, a critical amount of mutas will just tear through any amount of stalkers, even with guardian sheild. Protoss needs storm to handle that wich is something he wont be able to get out of two bases while at the same time keeping up a production of colossi and void rays. I have two stargates churning out void rays. Why would I be unable to churn out some phoenix (plus they build very quickly)? Seriously, I really don't understand this claim. Phoenix do amazingly well against mutas. Who cares about stalkers when I can easily grab phoenix and actually counterharass and scout more! I mean using mutalisks as your primary AA means if I grab phoenix, my void rays are basically unstoppable. I don't think there's any way around it. You need queens. You need corruptors. Mutas, hydras, and infestors just don't seem to cut it. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On February 17 2011 05:39 Turbo.Tactics wrote: That would make archons totally useless again... Stop at 1 HP then against toss, like plague.... | ||
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