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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 05:39 Logo wrote:
Also why would anyone stick to colossi void ray if there are/were 20+ mutas around.
because in this particular scenario that we are discussing, the protoss is on two bases and could not possiblt afford a tech switch to high templars. Isnt that pretty obvious even to a zerg player? Also, zerg can save up larvae and resources and pop out the mutas right as the protoss is starting to move out, so he wont be able to scout it and react in time.
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Is it raining or do you have a bad mic?
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On February 17 2011 05:31 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote:On February 17 2011 05:11 Protein wrote:On February 17 2011 05:09 DamnCats wrote:I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? Of course you can kill his AA, mutas beat stalker/voidrays pretty easily and since the protoss is only on 2 bases with 2 stargates, he cant proce enough phoenix to posses without sacrifising ground forces. again, if the protoss is on 2 you can easily pump out enough mutas to break his anti air. with 6-8 geysers gas wont be a problem so dont whine about gas costs. Also, Colossus DPS is fine. They counter hydras effectivley and thats what they are intended to do, but noone is forcing you to build hydras. Roaches are really good versus colossus, especially in this situation where the protoss wont have a large sentry count. Stop the QQ already Edit: Mutas do not perform poorly against stalkers. Stalkers scale horribly with upgrades and in the later phase of the game, a critical amount of mutas will just tear through any amount of stalkers, even with guardian sheild. Protoss needs storm to handle that wich is something he wont be able to get out of two bases while at the same time keeping up a production of colossi and void rays.
This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do?
Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will
1. kill you right away with a 6 gate
2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
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On February 17 2011 05:42 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:39 Logo wrote:
Also why would anyone stick to colossi void ray if there are/were 20+ mutas around.
because in this particular scenario that we are discussing, the protoss is on two bases and could not possiblt afford a tech switch to high templars. Isnt that pretty obvious even to a zerg player? Also, zerg can save up larvae and resources and pop out the mutas right as the protoss is starting to move out, so he wont be able to scout it and react in time.
Tech switch? You have 2 stargates. Get Phoenix.
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On February 17 2011 05:42 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:39 Logo wrote:
Also why would anyone stick to colossi void ray if there are/were 20+ mutas around.
because in this particular scenario that we are discussing, the protoss is on two bases and could not possiblt afford a tech switch to high templars. Isnt that pretty obvious even to a zerg player?
No one mentioned HTs? Cut the VR production (and colossi at 3-4) and focus on your gateways, upgrades and/or phoenixes.
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few legitimate nerf is make colosuss supply increase by 2. so that their army number isnt so big compared to zergs army. At this point. zergs army cannnot out match the protoss' players unless you are far more skilled than him in every aspect. macro and micro, strategy and game sense.
Or decrease the speed of colosuss, i cant believe that thing is faster than hydra.
also make zerg's creep slow down enemy unit. im not sure why blizzard decided to blindly add all these fancy units such as colosuss shooting razer, and not add more dynamic and complex style of play that can evolove from having creeps do special effect on the enemy troop.
where is da love dustin ?
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So the show is about an unkillable deathball, people suggest a way to kill said deathball and the response is "BUT THEN HE'LL MAKE DIFFERENT UNITS". Guess what, the entire point is to force the protoss to make different units because he is staying on 2 bases and his resources are quite limited. If the protoss gets on 3 base then it is no longer the same strategy and he is quite a bit more open to nydus, drops, muta harass etc.
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This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do?
Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will
1. kill you right away with a 6 gate
2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
1. How is he going to transition into 6gate when he already has 2 stargates and a robo bay? we are not talking about muta/ling in PvZ in general, this discussion is about Muta vs void ray/colossus.
2. You dont have to show your mutalisks to him, you dont even have to produce them until you see that he is starting to move out with his void ray colossus force. and if he tries to mass phoenix you can switch to a ground based army and kill him. A protoss on 2 bases can not afford to tech switch or change his unit composition very effectivley, but a zerg on 4-5 bases CAN.
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On February 17 2011 05:43 MonkeyKungFu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:31 dark fury wrote:On February 17 2011 05:18 Alpina wrote:On February 17 2011 05:11 Protein wrote:On February 17 2011 05:09 DamnCats wrote:I'm sorry you haven't figured out to not run your zerglings into a ball of colossi yet. So am i sir, so am i. But on a serious note, yea, mutalisks can snipe collosus and then you can run zerglings in. I agree with that. Except that unless the protoss player has absolutely awful unit control the only way you're going to snipe collosus is by losing quite a few mutalisks as well. Or on the other hand you could run in a bunch of zerglings at the same time and lose more of them and less mutalisks. Thing is that's only really effective if the protoss players sucks at controlling his units and does stupid shit like a moving his entire army into his main when you start harrassing and his stalkers going around while the collosus goes up the cliff alone (much like silly terrans do with their medivacs sometimes). Thats when you can snipe them but if they don't let that happen I don't really see how you can snipe them with mutalisks without taking at least equal the amount of resources lost. This is all assuming hes too busy to research blink also. Dude, don't even bother sniping the cols. Just melt his AA. If he's got enough sentries and stalkers to handle 24 mutalisks then your zerglings will be able to deal damage. If he does have that crazy amount of colossi, you'll tear through his AA. And if he's researching blink, he's split himself down three different tech paths and you should have taken the map or killed him by now. Also, to the poster who said upgraded colossus two shots hydra. Yes, a colossus with 3 fucking attack upgrades one shots a hydra with NO armor upgrades. I mean c'mon people, doesn't this reek of bias by now? This is ridiculous. It's like me saying a fully upgraded army of ultralisks and broodlords/hydras/corruptors tear anything protoss has to shit. So you pretty much suggest killing whole his AA army with with mutas? Man have you ever played this game? I am going to need 40 mutas at least to kill that and I will lose everything. Who can ever straight up attack stalkers, sentries, voids and phoenixes with just mutas? If you win the game that way I can say for sure that you outplayed toss so badly.. I don't even mention archons or mothership with toilet which now became pretty popolar. Btw on collosus part: what bias? Do you really think that collosus does not do too much damage? Of course you can kill his AA, mutas beat stalker/voidrays pretty easily and since the protoss is only on 2 bases with 2 stargates, he cant proce enough phoenix to posses without sacrifising ground forces. again, if the protoss is on 2 you can easily pump out enough mutas to break his anti air. with 6-8 geysers gas wont be a problem so dont whine about gas costs. Also, Colossus DPS is fine. They counter hydras effectivley and thats what they are intended to do, but noone is forcing you to build hydras. Roaches are really good versus colossus, especially in this situation where the protoss wont have a large sentry count. Stop the QQ already Edit: Mutas do not perform poorly against stalkers. Stalkers scale horribly with upgrades and in the later phase of the game, a critical amount of mutas will just tear through any amount of stalkers, even with guardian sheild. Protoss needs storm to handle that wich is something he wont be able to get out of two bases while at the same time keeping up a production of colossi and void rays. This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do? Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will 1. kill you right away with a 6 gate 2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
That's not a fair presentation, either. Zerg is known to be the side with the fastest tech switches, not Protoss. If a Protoss has invested in 2 stargate + robo he is not going to 6 gate. VRs and Colossi are not quick to build, so you will have time to get up the Muta numbers. Zerg is far more reactive in this case than Protoss because once the Protoss has invested in the Colossi and VRs, he cannot easily switch out of it on two bases.
I am not convinced that Phoenixes render this point moot. If they did then this build would be Phoenix + Colossi as opposed to VR + Colossi. The VRs are necessary because Corrupters straight-up counter Phoenixes, so for the death ball to fight efficiently against a Zerg army you need a sizable number of voids. Phoenixes delay voids and make the death ball more vulnerable to corrupters. It is far from clear that Zerg cannot threaten Mutas, force Phoenixes, and then build Corrupters to seal the deal.
In fact, it is not even clear that you cannot have the proper balance of Corrupters and ground defense to stop this build in the first place. Idra believes that you cannot, but Dimaga has shown against White-Ra that it's very possible. That debate has to be worked out first before the imbalance verdict goes further.
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I would like to see Artosis replays "crushing" Korean ladder as protoss with this strategy...
I use this build and to be honest smart zerg will do crazy all-in with nydus and front bust at the same time and destroy me before I got the ball, or just go 4 base fast (since Im not able to attack before 20min mark) and outmacro me.
In this episode they didnt even disscuss, they said its overpower, Artosis claim to own the ladder with it, and they speak that nothing works against it. Well guys after patch 1.1 when roaches get range buff Idra said that all crying protoss should learn how to counter this instead of whine week after patch. So Im giving you same advice, practise, and in few weeks people will fiqure out how to deal with it.
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As previous posters have already stated, if protoss goes for a phoenix+colossus build you should be totally fine as long as you have a stronger economy and more bases than the protos (wich we can assume that you are, because the protoss turtled up on 2 bases). even if he kills most of your mutas you can remax on ground units wich will just roll over a phoenix+ colossus composition
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On February 17 2011 05:49 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +
This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do?
Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will
1. kill you right away with a 6 gate
2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
1. How is he going to transition into 6gate when he already has 2 stargates and a robo bay? we are not talking about muta/ling in PvZ in general, this discussion is about Muta vs void ray/colossus. 2. You dont have to show your mutalisks to him, you dont even have to produce them until you see that he is starting to move out with his void ray colossus force. and if he tries to mass phoenix you can switch to a ground based army and kill him. A protoss on 2 bases can not afford to tech switch or change his unit composition very effectivley, but a zerg on 4-5 bases CAN.
No Protoss would ever suspect mutalisks vs someone with 4-6 gasses, no/very few roaches/hydras, a spire, and possibly a bunch of spine crawlers (it's what keeps you from dieing when you go mutas).
Also why does the zerg get to switch to a ground based army while the Protoss doesn't? Also have you ever tried such a switch (going to a ground army to deal with phoenixes after phoenixes are out), it's not easy. If phoenixes get out in a mass > your current capability to shoot up and kill them it's very difficult to retroactively get such a force since the phoenixes can live in your base until you get multiple spore colonies up.
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On February 17 2011 05:49 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +
This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do?
Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will
1. kill you right away with a 6 gate
2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
2. You dont have to show your mutalisks to him, you dont even have to produce them until you see that he is starting to move out with his void ray colossus force. and if he tries to mass phoenix you can switch to a ground based army and kill him. A protoss on 2 bases can not afford to tech switch or change his unit composition very effectivley, but a zerg on 4-5 bases CAN.
Well you can't hide mutas if toss has stargate - he will be flying around with void/phoenixes and killing stuff around.
And yes, you can stockpile resources until last minute and then build ~20+ muta but that won't work in high lvl game. Toss understand that you don't invest your gas anywhere and also he can just fly around and kill stuff with void rays, so you need mobile AA anyways.
Btw why everyone talking only about 2 base toss, most toss gets quickly 3rd base and you can't really punish that especially on maps like shakuras.
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Also why does the zerg get to switch to a ground based army while the Protoss doesn't? Also have you ever tried such a switch (going to a ground army to deal with phoenixes after phoenixes are out), it's not easy. If phoenixes get out in a mass > your current capability to shoot up and kill them it's very difficult to retroactively get such a force since the phoenixes can live in your base until you get multiple spore colonies up.
Because zerg is at a massive economic advantage and has tons of larvae in this case? do i even have to explain to you how the zerg mechanics work? there is no way a protoss on TWO bases is gonna be able to tech switch and re-max according to the zerg unit compositon when a zerg has a huge economical advantage.
We are discussing a TWO BASE PROTOSS vs 4-5 BASE ZERG. of COURSE the zerg is gonna be able to respond and tech switch according to what the protoss does.
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On February 17 2011 05:55 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:49 dark fury wrote:
This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do?
Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will
1. kill you right away with a 6 gate
2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
2. You dont have to show your mutalisks to him, you dont even have to produce them until you see that he is starting to move out with his void ray colossus force. and if he tries to mass phoenix you can switch to a ground based army and kill him. A protoss on 2 bases can not afford to tech switch or change his unit composition very effectivley, but a zerg on 4-5 bases CAN. Well you can't hide mutas if toss has stargate - he will be flying around with void/phoenixes and killing stuff around. And yes, you can stockpile resources until last minute and then build ~20+ muta but that won't work in high lvl game. Toss understand that you don't invest your gas anywhere and also he can just fly around and kill stuff with void rays, so you need mobile AA anyways. Btw why everyone talking only about 2 base toss, most toss gets quickly 3rd base and you can't really punish that especially on maps like shakuras.
Because the show is about the two base build. Three bases would stretch the Protoss thin and make it a lot easier to exploit the need for this death ball to stay together in order to work, as either VRs or Colossi by themselves are easily picked off.
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I don't think anyone is talking about going straight to muta/ling, there's no rule that says you can't go roaches and then switch to mutalisks once you scout the protoss doing this strategy. You will have plenty of time if they are building up a 2 base VR/colossus army.
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On February 17 2011 05:55 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:49 dark fury wrote:
This post is just ignorant, Do you really think protoss does not react to what you do?
Yes of course you can kill stalker colossi void ray mix with 50 mutas and lings, problem is, if you opponent doesnt suck, he will
1. kill you right away with a 6 gate
2. make phoenixes instead of void rays, then switch it up as he laugh when zerg where stupid enough to open muta to later on beeing forced to make roach hydra and then beeing severely behind
2. You dont have to show your mutalisks to him, you dont even have to produce them until you see that he is starting to move out with his void ray colossus force. and if he tries to mass phoenix you can switch to a ground based army and kill him. A protoss on 2 bases can not afford to tech switch or change his unit composition very effectivley, but a zerg on 4-5 bases CAN. Well you can't hide mutas if toss has stargate - he will be flying around with void/phoenixes and killing stuff around. And yes, you can stockpile resources until last minute and then build ~20+ muta but that won't work in high lvl game. Toss understand that you don't invest your gas anywhere and also he can just fly around and kill stuff with void rays, so you need mobile AA anyways. Btw why everyone talking only about 2 base toss, most toss gets quickly 3rd base and you can't really punish that especially on maps like shakuras.
this
and for 1. after a 3 gate expand, there will usually be scouting on the toss side, if he sees muta ling is on the way, there will be no void ray colossi
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and for 1. after a 3 gate expand, there will usually be scouting on the toss side, if he sees muta ling is on the way, there will be no void ray colossi
No, there will be phoenix colossi instead wich is not going to be able to kill your reinforcements. Phoenix/colossus performs really bad versus a ground based army.
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On February 17 2011 05:57 dark fury wrote:
Because zerg is at a massive economic advantage and has tons of larvae in this case? do i even have to explain to you how the zerg mechanics work? there is no way a protoss on TWO bases is gonna be able to tech switch and re-max according to the zerg unit compositon when a zerg has a huge economical advantage.
We are discussing a TWO BASE PROTOSS vs 4-5 BASE ZERG. of COURSE the zerg is gonna be able to respond and tech switch according to what the protoss does.
You can't just give Zerg an economical advantage out of nowhere. 2 Base Protoss can support up to 44 drones at ~100% mining rate and another 16 (60) at reduced mining rates which is getting close to the general # of workers you see in a game (granted it's much less gas though). Zerg meanwhile can't just go out and mass expand right away because they need to be able to confirm things like you aren't going 4 gate, you aren't going 6 gate, etc. It takes a while for the economic superiority of Zerg to kick in if Protoss early expands. Either because it's a 3 gate expand and Zerg can't grab a 3rd until they confirm the expand or because it's forge FE and Zerg can't really hatch first vs forge FE (at least not without having really really good unit control).
Zerg will almost always have a higher resource income around the time of a big 2 base P push, but it's not a long term advantage and is usually one they've obtained relatively recently so their total mined still hasn't surpassed the P's to a significant amount.
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EPT
