|
Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 15:08 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:20 Treemonkeys wrote:Come on, the observer is easier to shoot down if you actually see a little blur vs. something that shows up on the minimap, seriously. And you are going to say a slow changeling is just as good to scout with as a hallucinated phoenix?? Phoenix and muta are really close but the phoenix is still faster. So the observer is better than an overseer because it's slow and fragile, but sneaky, while the changeling is worse than a hallucination because it's slow and fragile, yet sneaky? You can't have it both ways, you know.
So look at pro games and count the number of minutes of unnoticed observers vs. unnoticed changelings.
|
Half the time I try this deathball 2 base build, I get muta'ed to death starting at 11 minutes because I can't pressure zerg at all. Isn't this the classic circular metagame where Toss didn't know what to do with mutas until they realized the timing windows, then Zerg adapted, and now Toss re-adapted, and it's back to "how do you deal with the 10 min mutas" again?
|
Maybe one solution would be to reduce the shield regeneration rate for Protoss out of combat? That would increase the chance of success for dealing lasting damage. It would also alter the "annoyingness" and durability of the Protoss scouting Probe.
|
On February 17 2011 16:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Half the time I try this deathball 2 base build, I get muta'ed to death starting at 11 minutes because I can't pressure zerg at all. Isn't this the classic circular metagame where Toss didn't know what to do with mutas until they realized the timing windows, then Zerg adapted, and now Toss re-adapted, and it's back to "how do you deal with the 10 min mutas" again?
Switch to phoenixes very quickly. You'll be able to hold it with that. Mutalisks are actually a bad reply to stargate builds for this reason.
|
in tvp episode they concluded terran early game isn't imbalanced despite the fact there were so many games in GSL that were under 8mins kills by terran.
their theory: reaper in zvt was imbalanced but marauder early push in tvp isn't eventhough it had relatively similar chance of shutting down or cripple P just as hard.
now in any other episodes WHERE ZERG IS VICTIM they always conclude opposing race is imbalanced despite the fact this strategy has been relatively new.
these episodes are so dirty biased
|
On February 17 2011 16:24 Wolf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 16:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Half the time I try this deathball 2 base build, I get muta'ed to death starting at 11 minutes because I can't pressure zerg at all. Isn't this the classic circular metagame where Toss didn't know what to do with mutas until they realized the timing windows, then Zerg adapted, and now Toss re-adapted, and it's back to "how do you deal with the 10 min mutas" again? Switch to phoenixes very quickly. You'll be able to hold it with that. Mutalisks are actually a bad reply to stargate builds for this reason.
What happens when zerg sees this and doesn't build any mutas and you've built 8 phoenixes to respond to units that are never built? Because this has happened to me 
|
On February 17 2011 16:37 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 16:24 Wolf wrote:On February 17 2011 16:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Half the time I try this deathball 2 base build, I get muta'ed to death starting at 11 minutes because I can't pressure zerg at all. Isn't this the classic circular metagame where Toss didn't know what to do with mutas until they realized the timing windows, then Zerg adapted, and now Toss re-adapted, and it's back to "how do you deal with the 10 min mutas" again? Switch to phoenixes very quickly. You'll be able to hold it with that. Mutalisks are actually a bad reply to stargate builds for this reason. What happens when zerg sees this and doesn't build any mutas and you've built 8 phoenixes to respond to units that are never built? Because this has happened to me
Don't make phoenixes until you see mutas. Then pressure with phoenixes and he'll be forced to stop muta production, and you won't need more phoenixes. Always be aware of how many mutas he's making. If he keeps making them, keep making phoenixes. It's pretty simple.
You might be wondering, "Well, if he has 12 mutas suddenly and I didn't make any phoenixes, then am I screwed?"
Nope. By that time, you should have enough units to not die to the mutas straightforward. Defend as best as you can, chrono out phoenixes.
|
I'm kind of disappointed that they didn't mention anything about infestors with neural parasite to try and help combat this protoss mix.
Surely if you had a handful of queens (or just a couple) and a handful of infestors not only would you be able to fungal growth if you wanted...but you could take control of the bigger units i.e the collossi and voidrays and use the queens to transfuse to help keep the infestor alive?
If corruptors are that bad (which they are) then infestors would surely be the best option?
If you have maybe heavy roach as your main army and support them with infestors and queens it might help no?
|
On February 17 2011 16:53 Worm Shoes wrote:
I'm kind of disappointed that they didn't mention anything about infestors with neural parasite to try and help combat this protoss mix.
Surely if you had a handful of queens (or just a couple) and a handful of infestors not only would you be able to fungal growth if you wanted...but you could take control of the bigger units i.e the collossi and voidrays and use the queens to transfuse to help keep the infestor alive?
If corruptors are that bad (which they are) then infestors would surely be the best option?
If you have maybe heavy roach as your main army and support them with infestors and queens it might help no?
If this was prior to the (beta)nerf of Neural parasite, and the engagement was in favorable terrain with some sloppy micro by the protoss player and great control by the zerg player, this might work.
Unfortunately, with NP the way it is now, I have trouble seeing this succeeding.
|
Next Episode better focus on ZvT TvZ however you wanna put it -.- tired of hearing toss now xD
|
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/EAj4w.png)
Off-Topic: Artosis looks so sad in the first frame of the vod. I dont know if it's on purpose or not but it sure fits the "Voidray/Colo imbalance" topic. Artosis is sad about balance 
|
On February 17 2011 16:58 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 16:53 Worm Shoes wrote:
I'm kind of disappointed that they didn't mention anything about infestors with neural parasite to try and help combat this protoss mix.
Surely if you had a handful of queens (or just a couple) and a handful of infestors not only would you be able to fungal growth if you wanted...but you could take control of the bigger units i.e the collossi and voidrays and use the queens to transfuse to help keep the infestor alive?
If corruptors are that bad (which they are) then infestors would surely be the best option?
If you have maybe heavy roach as your main army and support them with infestors and queens it might help no? If this was prior to the (beta)nerf of Neural parasite, and the engagement was in favorable terrain with some sloppy micro by the protoss player and great control by the zerg player, this might work. Unfortunately, with NP the way it is now, I have trouble seeing this succeeding.
I would still like them to try and address it though!
I agree with what you said totally....but i think with players who are as good as Idra with the ability to do more then one thing at a time  ...it could have a positive outcome...maybe? ;p
|
On February 17 2011 15:08 Jayzo wrote:
haha another one vs zerg, you would think they would at least try to make the episodes balanced...
Last episode was TvP?
|
On February 17 2011 16:53 Worm Shoes wrote:
I'm kind of disappointed that they didn't mention anything about infestors with neural parasite to try and help combat this protoss mix.
Surely if you had a handful of queens (or just a couple) and a handful of infestors not only would you be able to fungal growth if you wanted...but you could take control of the bigger units i.e the collossi and voidrays and use the queens to transfuse to help keep the infestor alive?
If corruptors are that bad (which they are) then infestors would surely be the best option?
If you have maybe heavy roach as your main army and support them with infestors and queens it might help no?
infestors die so fast no human on Earth could micro transfuses fast enough to keep them alive against colossus fire.
Maybe flash...
|
Well to be honest (in theory) since NP has the same range as colosus and since they don't take prio of the first wave of fire and you should have more than just your 5-6 colosus it's gonna be hard to focus them down. and if you do, it's gonna be one at a time and the NPed colosus would rip shit apart (specially zealots).
So much unexplored territory imho, to much whining. People say it's hard to beat and yet they do the same bloody roach hydra mixes all game long. Atleast try something new?
"Oh I tried! (2 game) it didnt work! So I went back to the strat that dies to it for sure!"
|
Zerg has to get more effective units it is as simple as that and use them while they are effective.
From Early/mid until Lategame, where Colossus count isn't too high, Roach/Hydra/Corrupter demolish Protoss ground army. Now this composition is build up "counter" Raoch/Hydra/Corrupter, why Zerg complains now when their composition is countered, when they to the same before hand against Protoss Gateway army?....hypocrisy
|
I keep thinking it will have to be something to do with Muta into Infestor and being 1 base ahead at all times. Muta to start initial map control to gain the extra base. I would try to hide it but if you are scouted perhaps stop making Muta and switch to Infestor. Perhaps try to use Muta to pick off units and fungal their air if it gets out of position. If he is dead set at holding air then he almost certainly won't have enough Colossus. You could transition into using NP on Colossus with some Roach + Hydra support.
I think it is a bad idea to look at you need this and this unit to beat this and more an overarching plan to deal with the possible moves the Toss can make if he starts off with this strategy.
|
i cant believe how stupid are comments that if you go muta he can go phoneix. SO WHAT? if he goes phoenix (with mutas u will have great scouting option as well and you can spot their build even before 1st unit pops up), u go corrupters, guess which air units are more cost effective and better, last time i checked void rays were 250/150 3S corrupters were 150/100 2S, phoenix 150/100 2S, muta 100/100 2S. any way u put it zerg can demolish air if they want to, while still having more money to spend than toss on ground units. its stupid to expect only protoss will be only one to adopt their strategy and counter zergs, if zerg players cant do same to them then clearly its not race where is real problem!
|
This might of been said already, i havent read the whole thread and i know people have mentioned that its done by 1.5 zergs, but i really feel a show of this type should have 1 player who mains each race to present all points of view. Ive watched the first 2 eps and idra and artosis do a decent job of staying impartial, but i think it would definatly improve with the addition of a high level terran, and posibly someone whos always been protoss..
|
You guys can theorycraft all you want but in reality NP is NOT the answer to this since the imbalance is in PvZ lategame and once the Blinkstalker upgrade is finished every tosser will be happy to see Infestors using Neural Parasite. To make it a general rule of thumb = No strings attached to PvZ lategame!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
