VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 37

On February 17 2011 22:16 Protein wrote:


Okay so wait. I say that you need to go mutas to beat a ball of colossus, vray, stalker and sentry and you suddenly add in archons, mothership and phoenixs?

Do you know how much gas that all is? Did you not look at my "hypothetical army"? If you don't know that 24 mutalisks would rape 10 stalkers and 5 sentries in the blink of an idea, I suggest you change games.

Edit: just to add, this is the prioblem with theory crafting. You get answers like "Ha, you think muts would counter an army that has spent a lot of gas on vrays/colossi to counter your roach opening? Muts won't work because protoss can go an entirely different tech tree and then pull out a mothership and destroy your muta army!"

This thread is retarded.

On February 17 2011 22:31 diLLa wrote:
200 supply carriers with +3 attack upgrades is also uncounterable.
200 supply of thors is also uncounterable.

Point is, that you can't get these compositions when you get attacked/harassed in early/d game.

It's a little exaggerated, but this point is also valid when it comes to the voidray/colossus composition.
It's a rediciolous strong composition when you get maxed, but it's very vulnerable to early ling/muta harassment.

Lots of times the counter doesn't rely in the right counter composition, but exploiting it's weakness, and obviously the weakness lies in the fact that it's an awful lot of tech for 2 base, so obviously he will have to cut in army count in the early game. Go mass muta when you scout this build, and try it out. I'm willing to bet on it that it's very effective.

On February 17 2011 22:20 Protein wrote:


You have TWO stargates and a robo churning out all of this army on one base? Have you ever played Protoss? No? Didn't think so.
Seriously you zergies need to stop whining. This is ridiculous and absurd. Protoss can't just shit 12 different tech units out constantly.

On February 17 2011 22:26 s031720 wrote:



Mutas is not the answer. As a general rule if P builds a stargate before your spire, you can never be effective with Mutas. Phoenixes are just too good vs Mutas; and as for techswitching, P already have 2 stargates following this build, changing what unit to produce in the same production building is not much of a commitment. And phoenixes build very quickly with chronoboost.
If P goes any other tech-route than stargate however, then I agree that mutas can be a viable option as techswitching is hard for P. But that is not the case in the build we are discussing.

One thing I find hilarious is the "but infestors are so gas intensive!!!" kind of talk. It's really a big wtf to me. Do you have any idea how gas heavy Colossi/Void ray/Gateway is?? I play Toss, and to go Colossi, Void ray, and gateway off two base is........still quite hard to do. They'll only get there if you let them. 4 gas geysers isn't that much when you're massing 150 gas void rays, 200 gas colossi, and 50/100 gas gateway units. Plus upgrades. And that's not even counting the mineral costs, which is actually ridiculously substantial. 300 per colossi, 250 per void ray, plus 125 for a single stalker. Its almost ludicrous to think about.


Lets consider a 200/200 Protoss death ball.
Lets say 6 colossi. That's 36 supply, 1800 minerals, 1200 gas.
Ok, now lets say 12 void rays. Another 36 supply, 3000 minerals, 1800 gas.
Ok, now we need about 20 stalkers. 40 supply, 2500 minerals, 1000 gas.
Rest zealots. Assuming they have about 55 probes, that means 15 zealots, 30 supply, 1500 minerals.
Production buildings. Lets say 4 gates at 150 apiece, a robo, robotics + thermal lance, two stargates, and a forge.
1650 minerals, 800 gas.

Add all that up.

10450 minerals.
4800 gas.

Ok, zerg.

40 roaches. 3000 minerals, 1000 gas, 80 supply.
25(!!!!!) corruptors. 3750 minerals, 2500 gas, 50 supply.
5 infestors. 500 minerals, 750 gas, 10 supply.
60 drones take up the rest. Or 56 + 2 queens, whatever.
Production. 1 roach warren(200 min), 1 spire(250/200), infestation pit(150/100), evo chamber(125), pathogen(150/150) AND NP(150/150).
1025 minerals, 725 gas.

8275 minerals.
4975 gas.

Throw in a macro hatch + 2 extra expos, and you'll have roughly equal resources spent all around. Also, with the pure number of air units you can pump, out, you could even opt for something like 12 corruptors and 6 brood lords, or even just 25 muta......which will keep him from ever leaving his base.
Basic upgrades are roughly equal for both sides, so I didn't bother calculating them.

How does that not compute? Plus if you're on 3/4 bases to his 2, then you'll have plenty of resources. You could even throw nydus in there as well, and still be pretty equal in resources spent. That zerg army can absolutely crap all over that toss army with good micro, especially good fungal/NP use, which I think are key in battles like this. If you can NP 2 colossi, and fungal his zealots, then you've already won half the battle. Throw in 25 corruption spells too for the lulz. Plus you'll be able to throw much more units right back at him after a fairly even army trade.

On February 17 2011 22:50 Shooks wrote:
Ever since I saw Guineapig do a similar build to this, I've been doing it on maps where I can FE, except I get my 3rd much quicker, only a few times have I ever lost with it, but doing it on 2 base is so much different from 3, doing it on 2 base is TERRIBLE, I don't understand why they were saying 'if you scout and see corrupters, tech switch into blink stalkers'.........What? You're on 2 bases fuck, you don't just make all this tech then not use it, it costs to much and they talk about how protoss can just scout, well Zerg can just fly in a ovy and see a lot of stalkers, they're just gonna get Hydras.

Anyway mass corrupter, crushes this build, on 2 base you have no followup when your VRs and Coll die, Infestors can work to, before the Protoss gets maxed.

I do definitely think the pvz matchup is unbalanced, once there's like 6 collosi it's almost impossible for the Zerg to win, but I'm not to sure how blizzard are going to balance because I think nerfing Col might make them unused in pvt considering vikings already rape them.

On February 17 2011 22:16 Protein wrote:


Okay so wait. I say that you need to go mutas to beat a ball of colossus, vray, stalker and sentry and you suddenly add in archons, mothership and phoenixs?

Do you know how much gas that all is? Did you not look at my "hypothetical army"? If you don't know that 24 mutalisks would rape 10 stalkers and 5 sentries in the blink of an idea, I suggest you change games.

Edit: just to add, this is the prioblem with theory crafting. You get answers like "Ha, you think muts would counter an army that has spent a lot of gas on vrays/colossi to counter your roach opening? Muts won't work because protoss can go an entirely different tech tree and then pull out a mothership and destroy your muta army!"

This thread is retarded.

On February 17 2011 10:20 Nemireck wrote:
Uh... Phoenix are the HARD-COUNTER to mutalisks... Faster, more range, bonus against light. A single Phoenix can ACTUALLY kill infinity mutalisks notwithstanding a perfect muta surround, which is nearly impossible because phoenix are, again, faster units.

The reason you don't see pros respond to mass muta with Phoenix is because most zerg pros don't use mutalisks against toss, and when they do, the toss often doesn't NEED the phoenix because they already have enough anti-air up and running to deal with them.

On February 17 2011 23:02 Skinnyowllegs wrote:


Actually you are retarded, pure mutas doesnt even win against the collosi voidray ball, even without the mothership and archons. And please dont reply as if you know what you are talking about unless you are 3500+ master, which I highly doubt you are considering your weak theory crafting

On February 17 2011 23:20 AzureD wrote:


What exactly is preventing the Muta from owning it? You must have Phoenix or lots of Stalker to combat it. VR are not going to beat Muta. Not even charged VR. There is no reason for them to even get charged up on Muta either.

I think the answer is not unit compositions but tactics.

On February 17 2011 23:20 Surykatek wrote:
Idra is one of the best zergs in the world. And the hell a lot of protosses who dont even have 1% of his skill dissagree. Someone said that we dont have a good ammount of advice/posts from pros becouse they are getting flaimed by morons. So if you dissagree with them, prove your point by winning with genious theory crafted strategies vs good pros, or just STFU.

On February 17 2011 23:46 Offhand wrote:
I think the problem with the "uncounterable" protoss death ball is that zerg players are still trying to brute force it with roach/hydra/corrupter. For starters, why the hell bother with hydras? You're basically asking to die to collosus. It seems kinda obvious, and less expensive, that roach/muta would beat the "deathball" with the more agile mutas and being overall cheaper then a roach/hydra/corrupter force.

There's a lot of really bad assumptions that go into the ZvP match up that put zerg into the position where they can't stop a void/collo force. Ironically, most zergs consider the decisions they made the correct choices for stopping void/collo.

Decision 1: "He made a stargate, I'm putting down a hydra den". Bad idea. Hydras are just shitty units, stop making them because they "counter" air according to the backcover of the game manual. Even pre-collosus, hydras aren't scary. They just stop air only harass attempts which could've been done with a few queens and maybe a spore.

Decision 2: "Oh God the protoss deathball is moving out, I should mass corrupters." He already has voids, why would you do this? Corrupters perform terribly against void rays. A better idea would be making a few (like 3-4) corrupters and the rest mutas. Mutas are pretty much tickled by a void/collo force. Mainly because almost all your gas went into void/collo, and your stalker/sentry/phoenix count is going to be small. Voids and stalkers are bonus vs armored units. Corrupt and focus his collosi with your air and then move onto the voids.

The two most difficult units to stop as protoss are roaches and mutas. If you force a mass phoenix response with mutas, you've already defeated the threat of a void/collo composition. From a cost perspective, mutas are cheaper then corrupters anyway. You could argue there's a mineral surplus in a roach/muta composition but that should just go into queens instead. They're fantastic on creep, cheap as hell to produce (they effectively cost 1/4 of a larva), and scale with the same upgrades as your roaches.

On February 18 2011 00:07 kickinhead wrote:


You really don't build lot's of Hydras as soon as you see that he's going for Collossi and many deathballs have enough Stalkers to easily counter Mutas.

I mean, P can also go for a third and defend to get much more Stalkers and even Upgrades! P doesn't have to attack until he wants to.

On February 18 2011 00:02 Treemonkeys wrote:
Too many people are just looking at this like protoss is going to stick to the same build no matter what so they should be able to stop it but that is not what a good player is going to do. Protoss is going to have the stargate before you have a spire or hydra den and he is going to scout with a phoenix and try to pick off overlords. No hydra den can be easily punished by more phoenix, as can muta. He is going to have the phoenix before he has heavily invested in tons of colossus and void rays so it is not a matter of affording all of that stuff off two base and then transitioning to phoenix, they have the option to transition into phoenix before he commits completely to this build. If you go muta against this build simply he will not use this build and can go for mass pheonix before ever investing heavily on colossus or building a single void ray. What this means is that zerg is forced to react with a sub par build against stargate tech, putting him behind, so that protoss will not use this over powered build.

Some people were talking about the economic damage 7 mutas can do and this is not taking any timings into account. The stargate will come before the spire and if he scouts it he will have phoenix out before those mutas do any damage.

On February 18 2011 00:07 kickinhead wrote:


You really don't build lot's of Hydras as soon as you see that he's going for Collossi and many deathballs have enough Stalkers to easily counter Mutas.

I mean, P can also go for a third and defend to get much more Stalkers and even Upgrades! P doesn't have to attack until he wants to.