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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 18 2011 03:13 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 03:06 Offhand wrote:
So are you saying your blind strat is inferior to the toss blind strat? Listen, I can only give you suggestions on how to break the all-in. You need to scout and actually see what's happening. If you're losing all your overlords/queens to phoenix, well it's not my fault you can't make more then one queen per base. Mass phoenix isn't any kind of a lategame scenario protoss wants to be in. It's not a blind strat! It's a phoenix in your base, you have to respond. You respond one way, toss makes the death ball and wins, you respond another way, toss keeps using the tech he already has and wins. It forces zerg to to make a sup par decision just to avoid the death ball.
Then queen/spore up you mineral lines and continue roaching. Make a hydra den if you want to make the protoss player think you're going straight for the build order loss. If you scout nothing but phoenixes, be prepared to make corrupters. If he doesn't see muta pressure he won't stay on phoenixes long if he's going for a void/collo push. Simply stockpile gas until you see him move out and make mutas/corrupters (probably mutas) when he attacks.
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The one thing that would make me sad about a corruptor buff is it might kill whatever potential there is for the already under used carrier and battle cruiser.
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Im surprised idra of all people doesn't even consider 2 base muta harass as a viable option
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On February 18 2011 03:32 CellTech wrote:
Im surprised idra of all people doesn't even consider 2 base muta harass as a viable option
they scout with a phoenix and if they see muta play then chrono out 6-8 phoenixes and kill it easily
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he doesnt even consider it for an obvious reason rofl
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On February 18 2011 03:19 LloydRays wrote:I like the idea of using the light units for zerg [muta ling] to deal fast damage and reinforce quickly for zerg. The glave bounces will also help and require toss to have enough sentries for shield. The main idea would be to stop protoss from directly attacking you until you have another base, or hive tech. I have encountered 2 base infestor play and roach with neural parasite, letting roaches tank colossus shots and neural parasite the void rays. This obviously has holes since anti-air is non existent.Queens require 0 larva and are always a worthwhile mineral dump especially with transfuse creep spread etc. I don't have exact math (don't kill me I am a busy student if someone wants to help me out here) but the infestation pit + pathogen glands + parasite is about the same cost as thermal lance and colossus den. I feel this match-up will come down to micro, much similar in the sense of muta bane in tvz where the terran has to micro the marines to win. If blizzard were to do something I would think that a corruption buff would be pretty awesome, I don't know an exact figure, but the idea that you can cast a spell and make a unit take extra damage would be and awesome combination with light units that deal fast damage like the muta ling. Flame shields on 
Yeah, I would say micro as well as very active scouting. You must know the opposing composition almost all the time to react in time. Be it Protoss or Zerg you are playing.
If I would face this, I probably would get some Infestors to Fungal and prevent spreading, Banelings to drop the Fungal'd army with. Zerglings and/or Roaches and something to deal with VR. Considering that Infestor/Baneling/Ling is kinda gas heavy(you need upgrades), I would say your AA has to be Queens.
I know VR kill Overlords fast, but Ovie speed + semi-All-Ining with them should do the job. The opponent is going at least semi-All-In on you if he goes 2base that long.
Also, scout and adapt if need be(Hydra den or more Queens if Phoenix harass).
The key is to land the Fungals and prevent Spreading so be extremely cautious about Fungaling.
You need to kill as much of their stuff as fast as possible and still be in the game. Even if there are Colossi on the field, if you killed his army before he could get 4 Shots off, they aren't that useful.
I would say it's like ZvT where you need to kill the Terran force fast in order to not let Tanks get too many free shots.
Also, Void Rays do not get charged up because you have a ridiculous amount of weak units. This can be exploited if Rocks/Buildings are nearby of course, but try to not engage near those.
This is all theory as people don't use this build on me because I'm not at the semi-pro level as most of you are. I'll contribute better once I have someone to practice against this with.
Feel free to correct me, I take criticism if it's not straight out flame. Again, pure theory.
I don't know if the strat is imbalanced or not, but Zerg has to do some damn nifty micro against the Protoss 1a ball. At least for now.
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On February 18 2011 03:32 CellTech wrote:
Im surprised idra of all people doesn't even consider 2 base muta harass as a viable option
This response is tiresome and has been said far too many times. When Protoss scouts a spire, an easy transition into cb'd 2 stargate phoenix will destroy any muta presence.
This was an interesting episode. I definitely lose to this ball quite often on ladder. I don't want to see Protoss weakened; rather, I'd like to see Zerg buffed in a couple areas.
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Just go muta against phoenix! Then, next time I see marauders, I'll go roaches? Mass zealots can also be stopped by lings!
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When I have a problem with a specific match-up I play the race I hate to verse, and see what my opponents do. I get a good feel for what I should be capable of doing, and what things that I do that have the greatest impact.
You hear a lot of zerg complain about protoss, when in reality protoss complain about zerg just as much, same with ZvT and TvZ.
imo if your zerg you can't really complain about map imbalances because no matter what map you play on, if your opponent doesn't wall off then you win. If they dont back up fire with marines, or dont place good enough FF then you will win.
I play random and my zerg is prob the strongest because of all their options :/ someones going to reply to this and ask what I do vs colossus + voidray. your the one controlling the game, why do you let them get that far without a plan to counter it? chances are you have only built 2 different units (roaches / hydras) and the protoss has been forced to utilize their entire tech tree..
answer to question: i get infesters and broodlords :/ then a lot of hydras. fungal growth + broodlings = massive damage with no cost to you. the only way a protoss can stop broodlords is to blink under them, or target fire to voidrays. both options are extremely weak to a) fungal growth. b) shit load of hydras.
Also I like to use the rest of the energy from fungal growth on infested marines. Huge problem i find when I play zerg is versing death balls in choke points, The broodlords provide the endless cannon fodder in the front, and infested marines are good for surrounds / flanking. When my opponent gets high templar, its much easier to keep the infesters burrowed to avoid feedback, you can still spawn infested marines while burrowed.
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On February 18 2011 03:57 Treemonkeys wrote:
Just go muta against phoenix! Then, next time I see marauders, I'll go roaches? Mass zealots can also be stopped by lings!
If you can't beat an obvious two base play, I'm sorry for you. But that doesn't mean it's overpowered. Nor does the fact that two dudes in Korea claiming it's overpowered, make it overpowered. There's answers which I've very carefully spelled out for you already, you choose to ignore them.
It's honestly fine by me as more zergs avoiding mutas will just increase my win percentage. Just because someone with perceived clout starts making balance claims (players with a history of having reasonable and unbiased opinions at that  ), the legion of crap player will start blaming that for their losses.
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On February 18 2011 03:57 Rhythm.102 wrote:
When I have a problem with a specific match-up I play the race I hate to verse, and see what my opponents do. I get a good feel for what I should be capable of doing, and what things that I do that have the greatest impact.
You hear a lot of zerg complain about protoss, when in reality protoss complain about zerg just as much, same with ZvT and TvZ.
Actually, many, many T and P at a professional level have stated that they prefer to play Zergs because it is their easiest match up. I'm far too lazy to go back and research quotes but simply read tournament interviews. You're not going to find any Terrans saying "God what if I face a Zerg next round! ON XEL NAGA CAVERNS!!!!"
On February 18 2011 03:57 Rhythm.102 wrote:
imo if your zerg you can't really complain about map imbalances because no matter what map you play on, if your opponent doesn't wall off then you win. If they dont back up fire with marines, or dont place good enough FF then you will win.
This is a ridiculous point and totally without merit. Walling in takes no effort and is the safest and smartest way to open. Why wouldn't you wall in? You're making the tech structures anyway, why not place them in an intelligent fashion? This has no bearing on Zerg's ability to "complain about map imbalances".
On February 18 2011 03:57 Rhythm.102 wrote:
answer to question: i get infesters and broodlords :/ then a lot of hydras. fungal growth + broodlings = massive damage with no cost to you. the only way a protoss can stop broodlords is to blink under them, or target fire to voidrays. both options are extremely weak to a) fungal growth. b) shit load of hydras.
Also I like to use the rest of the energy from fungal growth on infested marines. Huge problem i find when I play zerg is versing death balls in choke points, The broodlords provide the endless cannon fodder in the front, and infested marines are good for surrounds / flanking. When my opponent gets high templar, its much easier to keep the infesters burrowed to avoid feedback, you can still spawn infested marines while burrowed.
Where are you getting the gas for infestor/broodlord/hydra? Are you running on 6-8 gas? When your Protoss opponent scouts infestation pit, hydra den and hive tech, do you really think a competent player wouldn't simply timing push, deny your third and completely roll over you?
In short, I don't understand your recommendations and general attitude here.
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On February 18 2011 03:51 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 03:32 CellTech wrote:
Im surprised idra of all people doesn't even consider 2 base muta harass as a viable option This response is tiresome and has been said far too many times. When Protoss scouts a spire, an easy transition into cb'd 2 stargate phoenix will destroy any muta presence. This was an interesting episode. I definitely lose to this ball quite often on ladder. I don't want to see Protoss weakened; rather, I'd like to see Zerg buffed in a couple areas.
You can't completely disregard a counter to an entire build just because another counter exists. Transitioning to mass phoenix isn't instant or cheap, and whatever a toss spends on phoenix, he isn't spending on colossi or voids. Not to mention corruptors counter all three, and come out of the same building.
Where are you getting the gas for infestor/broodlord/hydra?
The same place toss gets gas for colossi/void/blink stalkers.
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On February 18 2011 04:19 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 03:51 IPA wrote:On February 18 2011 03:32 CellTech wrote:
Im surprised idra of all people doesn't even consider 2 base muta harass as a viable option This response is tiresome and has been said far too many times. When Protoss scouts a spire, an easy transition into cb'd 2 stargate phoenix will destroy any muta presence. This was an interesting episode. I definitely lose to this ball quite often on ladder. I don't want to see Protoss weakened; rather, I'd like to see Zerg buffed in a couple areas. You can't completely disregard a counter to an entire build just because another counter exists. Transitioning to mass phoenix isn't instant or cheap, and whatever a toss spends on phoenix, he isn't spending on colossi or voids. Not to mention corruptors counter all three, and come out of the same building. The same place toss gets gas for colossi/void/blink stalkers.
It's not that another counter exists, it's the opening of the very same build! If you go muta, he doesn't WANT the voids, so who cares if he can't afford them. Corruptors DO NOT counter voids.
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Since colossus seems to pop up constantly as a troublemaker balance-wise, I was thinking if colossus would be more reasonable if it got the "tank treatment"? Right now the colossus counters everything on the ground, at least once you have the critical mass. Tanks used to do the same thing, but they got "balanced" a bit.
In other words, give it a boost in damage against light types but less damage against armored types. I chose it this way around simply because if it was more damage against armored, its role would overlap with the immortal. The adjustment would not have to be big, but it could help the colossi get a more defined role as a anti-mass light unit, rather than the unit that just kills everything, period.
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On February 18 2011 04:11 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 03:57 Treemonkeys wrote:
Just go muta against phoenix! Then, next time I see marauders, I'll go roaches? Mass zealots can also be stopped by lings! If you can't beat an obvious two base play, I'm sorry for you. But that doesn't mean it's overpowered. Nor does the fact that two dudes in Korea claiming it's overpowered, make it overpowered. There's answers which I've very carefully spelled out for you already, you choose to ignore them. It's honestly fine by me as more zergs avoiding mutas will just increase my win percentage. Just because someone with perceived clout starts making balance claims (players with a history of having reasonable and unbiased opinions at that ), the legion of crap player will start blaming that for their losses.
But you saying it's not overpowered, means it's not, and Idra is a crap player. LOL
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dimaga beat mana right now against colossus/voidray so it isn't impossible 
with getting more corrupter and using corruption and reinforcing with roach/ling
seemed pretty easy to stop.
with enough corrupters you don't need to get any fragile hydras at all, roaches do a very good job instead.
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On February 18 2011 03:01 Ribbon wrote:
Why is this thread in a bizarro world where Protoss can tech-switch instantly and Zerg is permanently committed to their build?
"If I make Brood Lords, Terran can make vikings!"
That's what I've been wondering for pages now.
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On February 18 2011 04:23 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 04:19 Sm3agol wrote:On February 18 2011 03:51 IPA wrote:On February 18 2011 03:32 CellTech wrote:
Im surprised idra of all people doesn't even consider 2 base muta harass as a viable option This response is tiresome and has been said far too many times. When Protoss scouts a spire, an easy transition into cb'd 2 stargate phoenix will destroy any muta presence. This was an interesting episode. I definitely lose to this ball quite often on ladder. I don't want to see Protoss weakened; rather, I'd like to see Zerg buffed in a couple areas. You can't completely disregard a counter to an entire build just because another counter exists. Transitioning to mass phoenix isn't instant or cheap, and whatever a toss spends on phoenix, he isn't spending on colossi or voids. Not to mention corruptors counter all three, and come out of the same building. Where are you getting the gas for infestor/broodlord/hydra? The same place toss gets gas for colossi/void/blink stalkers. It's not that another counter exists, it's the opening of the very same build! If you go muta, he doesn't WANT the voids, so who cares if he can't afford them. Corruptors DO NOT counter voids.
Its not like the 4 opening phoenix completely shuts down all air play from zerg. Just don't get mutas until your ground army is established. Switching BACK to phoenix won't work quite as well.
And corruptors are decent vs voids. Sure, they're not truly a counter, but nothing pure counters voids once they get charged.
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On February 18 2011 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 04:11 Offhand wrote:On February 18 2011 03:57 Treemonkeys wrote:
Just go muta against phoenix! Then, next time I see marauders, I'll go roaches? Mass zealots can also be stopped by lings! If you can't beat an obvious two base play, I'm sorry for you. But that doesn't mean it's overpowered. Nor does the fact that two dudes in Korea claiming it's overpowered, make it overpowered. There's answers which I've very carefully spelled out for you already, you choose to ignore them. It's honestly fine by me as more zergs avoiding mutas will just increase my win percentage. Just because someone with perceived clout starts making balance claims (players with a history of having reasonable and unbiased opinions at that ), the legion of crap player will start blaming that for their losses. But you saying it's not overpowered, means it's not, and Idra is a crap player. LOL
Idra's incapable of an unbiased opinion. The legions of people crying "ZvP imba!" are the crap players. There's plenty of existing replays of deathball plays losing to mutas. I think I'll start posting them.
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On February 18 2011 04:35 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 18 2011 04:11 Offhand wrote:On February 18 2011 03:57 Treemonkeys wrote:
Just go muta against phoenix! Then, next time I see marauders, I'll go roaches? Mass zealots can also be stopped by lings! If you can't beat an obvious two base play, I'm sorry for you. But that doesn't mean it's overpowered. Nor does the fact that two dudes in Korea claiming it's overpowered, make it overpowered. There's answers which I've very carefully spelled out for you already, you choose to ignore them. It's honestly fine by me as more zergs avoiding mutas will just increase my win percentage. Just because someone with perceived clout starts making balance claims (players with a history of having reasonable and unbiased opinions at that ), the legion of crap player will start blaming that for their losses. But you saying it's not overpowered, means it's not, and Idra is a crap player. LOL Idra's incapable of an unbiased opinion. The legions of people crying "ZvP imba!" are the crap players. There's plenty of existing replays of deathball plays losing to mutas. I think I'll start posting them.
Go right ahead.
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EPT
