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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
Australia4865 Posts
On February 24 2011 14:21 Gescom wrote:
That's definitely the case, but the Haypro game just now is definitely not a good indicator of that.
Yeah definitely, that Protoss could do nothing to stop HayPro when he went Muta, he could just go pure Pheonix, but then he will lose to mass Corrupter whilst Haypro drones like mad and spreads creep everywhere, he couldn't take a third without being denied by Speedlings, he had already invested too much into Robo Tech + Voidrays (first 10mins of his gas, leading to a virtually non-existent stalker presence) to ever come back
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On February 24 2011 14:10 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 14:03 DeltruS wrote:
Haypro just beat void ray colo with a great mix of muta and corruptor. A pure air army with upgrades seems to be a solid answer, at least with good economy on zerg's side. Did you consider at all that the protoss might of just played much worse than haypro?
If all balance discussion will go down this path, then there is no reasoning. Because if zerg lose, we assume the players are on equal level and zerg lost due to imbalance. If toss lose, then the zerg obviously played better to overcome the imbalance. Under those assumptions, there is really no discussion after this because no matter what we can only assume toss is OP. It is basically the same as when religious people pull the "god card".
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On February 16 2011 09:07 GhostFall wrote:
didn't you already do this one?
lolz they say PvZ is OP vs Z anyway.... ^.^
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Aristeo is definitely not a bad player. He responded appropriately to Haypro's mutas - he built phoenixes. Haypro countered with corrupters and zerglings. Aristeo was behind from losing some probes early on to zerglings and mutas, so he basically got rolled without being able to put on any pressure. But other than that, he was able to amass a sizable force of void rays, stalkers, and colossi. Haypro just picked away at it with corrupters and mutas and eventually had enough corrupters and mutas to straight-up run it over. Haypro also built 90 drones (too many for a head-on confrontation, but since Aristeo was behind it really didn't matter cause he was not going to hit 200/200).
All of this was theorycrafted in this thread a while ago, btw. Mutas and corrupters while expanding to gain an economic advantage. Risky if the Protoss decides to suddenly switch to 6-gate, so you must somehow scout him before committing to mass mutas. Will be interesting to see how this works in more games.
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On February 24 2011 14:54 Azarkon wrote:
Aristeo is definitely not a bad player. He responded appropriately to Haypro's mutas - he built phoenixes. Haypro countered with corrupters and zerglings. Aristeo was behind from losing some probes early on to zerglings and mutas, so he basically got rolled without being able to put on any pressure. But other than that, he was able to amass a sizable force of void rays, stalkers, and colossi. Haypro just picked away at it with corrupters and mutas and eventually had enough corrupters and mutas to straight-up run it over. Haypro also built 90 drones (too many for a head-on confrontation, but since Aristeo was behind it really didn't matter cause he was not going to hit 200/200).
All of this was theorycrafted in this thread a while ago, btw. Mutas and corrupters while expanding to gain an economic advantage. Risky if the Protoss decides to suddenly switch to 6-gate, so you must somehow scout him before committing to mass mutas. Will be interesting to see how this works in more games.
The thing is switching to 6 gate will not work as well as some people thinks. First of all, this 6 gate will extremely delay no matter what. It is basically after toss already have started going void ray+colossus build, and zerg is starting to build muta/corruptor ball and then toss scouts that and decide to throw down 3-4 more gateways? Now lets think about this, 6 gate timing is very limit. It is build to beat a zerg go is going muta/ling straight off 2 base and attack when zerg is saving larva+lots of saved gas/minerals to build muta. Another big point is that toss is very limited in resource, this is a 2 base build, toss already threw down 2-3 gateway, a robo, a robotic bay, and 1-2 starport. Now toss has to throw down 3-4 more gateways. That is 600 minerals which is a huge investment.
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I guess I should explain. The 6-gate I'm talking about is before the Protoss seriously commits to VR/Colossi. You can even fake this by building 1 VR and letting the Zerg see a Robo before canceling it, etc. This has to be scouted, obviously, or else Zerg will lose.
In terms of doing a 6-gate switch after investing in the VR/Colossi infrastructure, that will usually not work if the Zerg is at all on the ball in terms of using his mutas/corrupters for scouting and harassing. Once scouted, the Zerg can switch to pumping roaches and hydras. Throwing down a precautionary roach den is not a bad idea either way.
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The first thing I thought when they said to make mostly zealots from the warp gates was "few stalkers? mutas will love that."
It a massive oversimplifcation, but if you seriously commit to mutas and corruptors and nuke his stalkers/void rays then what's he going to do? If he's getting fewer stalkers early on then you've got a great opportunity to harass with the mutas too. I'd love to hear them talk about what they think about muta play in the next episode cause that just seems like the obvious solution and it's the one thing they didn't even mention lol
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On February 24 2011 15:07 Azarkon wrote:
I guess I should explain. The 6-gate I'm talking about is before the Protoss seriously commits to VR/Colossi. You can even fake this by building 1 VR and letting the Zerg see a Robo before canceling it, etc. This has to be scouted, obviously, or else Zerg will lose.
In terms of doing a 6-gate switch after investing in the VR/Colossi infrastructure, that will usually not work if the Zerg is at all on the ball in terms of using his mutas/corrupters for scouting and harassing. Once scouted, the Zerg can switch to pumping roaches and hydras. Throwing down a precautionary roach den is not a bad idea either way.
The Protoss can't scout a spire and then decide to go 6-gate. He doesn't have enough time to hit the window.
I still like Muta/Queen, but Muta/Corrupter seems to be becoming the consensus. (Though since you'll have minerals to dump, Muta/Corrupter/Queen/Ling is a possible composition. I've yet to hear a good reason to get more lings instead of queens, but I'm open to reasoned arguments).
So, mutas beat Laser Toss, and corrupters keep him from transitioning into 2-base phoenix. Then you just expand a lot while throwing units at the toss to keep army sizes low until he starves out.
Baller.
The big hole in this strategy is that it's extremely weak to a toss whose plan was to 6gate.I guess we can maybe....throw a roach warren down in case of emergency, and scout the front religiously with lings while keeping an eye out for pylons? So that we can transition into a lot of roaches if we see a big army coming?
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Australia4865 Posts
The Protoss can't scout a spire and then decide to go 6-gate.
Well, actually this is how it works sometimes, when you scout Spire without Hydra you can do an impromptu 6 Warpgate which will usually kill Zerg. Not sure if it would work if you also get a Stargate and a Voidray, too much gas into dead tech essentially.
Why not put down both a Hydra den and a Spire? Kind of like what Toss has to do against Terran with robo openings
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On February 24 2011 16:17 Dommk wrote:Well, actually this is how it works sometimes, when you scout Spire without Hydra you can do an impromptu 6 Warpgate which will usually kill Zerg. Not sure if it would work if you also get a Stargate and a Voidray, too much gas into dead tech essentially. Why not put down both a Hydra den and a Spire? Kind of like what Toss has to do against Terran with robo openings
Because the protoss will scout the spire with a phoenix or an obs, which requires a tech choice and some time committing to it.
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On February 24 2011 17:05 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 16:17 Dommk wrote:The Protoss can't scout a spire and then decide to go 6-gate. Well, actually this is how it works sometimes, when you scout Spire without Hydra you can do an impromptu 6 Warpgate which will usually kill Zerg. Not sure if it would work if you also get a Stargate and a Voidray, too much gas into dead tech essentially. Why not put down both a Hydra den and a Spire? Kind of like what Toss has to do against Terran with robo openings Because the protoss will scout the spire with a phoenix or an obs, which requires a tech choice and some time committing to it.
You know you can scout with hallucination, just like 90% of tosses do, so not, you are not commiting to anything.
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On February 24 2011 17:07 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 17:05 Ribbon wrote:On February 24 2011 16:17 Dommk wrote:The Protoss can't scout a spire and then decide to go 6-gate. Well, actually this is how it works sometimes, when you scout Spire without Hydra you can do an impromptu 6 Warpgate which will usually kill Zerg. Not sure if it would work if you also get a Stargate and a Voidray, too much gas into dead tech essentially. Why not put down both a Hydra den and a Spire? Kind of like what Toss has to do against Terran with robo openings Because the protoss will scout the spire with a phoenix or an obs, which requires a tech choice and some time committing to it. You know you can scout with hallucination, just like 90% of tosses do, so not, you are not commiting to anything.
Hallucination is inefficient when going for a laser toss build. It takes 80 seconds to research (48 if you c-boost thrice), during which you're not progressing down any tech path or throwing down more gateways (if you're waiting to see what the Zerg has before you commit to anything). That's a very long time to hold off on teching when the build you wanted to do has a fast phoenix/obs anyway
As Artosis says in the video, you use a fast phoenix to scout. And the reason you do that is because you're getting a fast stargate anyway, so why wait for a tech to scout when your build can scout just fine without? Hallucination for scouting is GREAT if you're going gateway heavy (and thus don't have other scouting options early). It's REDUNDANT if you plan on getting a fast starport or robo bay. Worse, it makes the build weaker, because it depends on getting a lot of tech units and hitting a timing. The later the deathball comes, the less scary it is.
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I made a new thread which is somewhat related: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195894
+ Show Spoiler +To overcome imbalance, a player should look for unit compositions that can beat the imbalance, then look for unorthodox ways to reach those unit compositions. A build order, or branch of a build order should be focused on both reaching a unit composition and forcing the enemy into a weaker unit composition.
An amazing example of this is the 3 stalker rush vs 4 gate. The 3 gate robo unit composition was the goal. The problem? 4 gate came too early to get the unit composition to beat it. With a goal in mind, IMYongHwa no doubt pondered about what allowed the 4 gate to reach his base so quickly. The result was a completely new build that changed the pvp metagame hugely.
One might say that this "unit composition goal" only works well with protoss; they have units that Day[9] likes to call "power units". Every protoss is thinking of ways to get a death ball. Do zergs have the same though process? The answer is no.
Potential for zerg can be seen. Goal: to have a unit composition superior to colossus void ray. What unit composition is that? Double upgraded muta corruptor, the corruptor to muta ratio determined by the protoss' ratio of phoenix, void rays and stalkers. This is comparable to the zergling roach mix.
Phoenixes have two attacks of 5. A corruptor has 4 armor with two armor upgrades, reducing phoenix damage to only 2. Mutalisks have three glaive wurm bounces: 9 (+1.000), 3 (+0.333), 1 (+0.111) for a total of 1.444 damage per upgrade. Two attack upgrades massively boost their damage. Void rays do 6(+1) damage to mutas, making muta armor very effective.
Corruptors can chase the pheonix while mutas attack the void rays, which want to stay still to keep their charge and due to their slow move speed.
I have tested, and the muta corruptor composition with upgrades works versus void ray colossus. Now, with that composition in mind, how can a zerg reach it in reaction to signs of voidray colo? There are thousands of ways, and quite a few of them would be valid, reactive build orders. The hundreds of high level players would undoubtedly be able to find these build orders.
Zergs can control a game is many ways:
Putting expansions across the map.
Double expanding.
High aggression with banelings.
Muta harass.
Burrow harass.
All these force a terran or protoss to play differently and can be used as a stepping stone on the way to a situation with unorthodox unit compositions triumphing over forced or delayed enemy builds. JulyZerg used lower econ banelings in reaction to IMmvp's build and, if they didn't kill him, they could have made the game lead into a situation where a certain unit composition would be 'overpowered'. This is similar to when a protoss cannon rushes into an unstoppable 4 gate, or when a protoss forces hydras then goes colossus.
So, my message is this: Find popular protoss/terran armies and think of compositions that are good verses them. How can that composition be reached in time to not die? Does the enemy's build have a vulnerability that can be exploited on the way to your unit composition? Can the enemy push be delayed? Can the enemy always be forced to change their composition? All of these questions I find are not being thought of nearly enough. Even in brood war new builds are being found and these questions being answered. In SC2, a much newer game, it is even easier to answer these questions and completely change the metagame. Feel free to use this thread in a manner that I did with the corruptor mutalisk composition, but potentially with actual results.
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Australia4865 Posts
Well if you are going "laser toss", 6 gate is completely out of the question considering you invest a lot of minerals and gas on Robo/Stargates/Support bay, you won't have enough units.
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On February 24 2011 15:35 itch wrote:
The first thing I thought when they said to make mostly zealots from the warp gates was "few stalkers? mutas will love that."
It a massive oversimplifcation, but if you seriously commit to mutas and corruptors and nuke his stalkers/void rays then what's he going to do? If he's getting fewer stalkers early on then you've got a great opportunity to harass with the mutas too. I'd love to hear them talk about what they think about muta play in the next episode cause that just seems like the obvious solution and it's the one thing they didn't even mention lol
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything.
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On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 15:35 itch wrote:
The first thing I thought when they said to make mostly zealots from the warp gates was "few stalkers? mutas will love that."
It a massive oversimplifcation, but if you seriously commit to mutas and corruptors and nuke his stalkers/void rays then what's he going to do? If he's getting fewer stalkers early on then you've got a great opportunity to harass with the mutas too. I'd love to hear them talk about what they think about muta play in the next episode cause that just seems like the obvious solution and it's the one thing they didn't even mention lol Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything.
Mutas are a huge invest but so are stalkers and gateway. Remember a spire only cost 200/200. Adding more gateways to keep up with muta production with stalker cost 150 each not to mention you actually need blink for stalkers to be good against mutas or you are just running around your base in circles.
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So if you open phoenixes with this you get constant scouting over your opponent, and if you see a spire, you just go more gateway heavy? It seems like the Voidray opening vs Haypro worked to his advantage because he had no idea what Haypro was teching to.
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On February 24 2011 19:43 Tachion wrote:
So if you open phoenixes with this you get constant scouting over your opponent, and if you see a spire, you just go more gateway heavy? It seems like the Voidray opening vs Haypro worked to his advantage because he had no idea what Haypro was teching to.
If you open with multiple pheonix, then it is no longer the 2 base void ray/colo/zealot build because 2 base cant support so many different tech path. Also any zerg will expand like 2 times because pheonix can harass but can never kill. Since zerg should be either getting roach hydra or spire(for corruptors) then this just turned into a normal pvz with pheonix opening. The whole point to this build is to stay on 2 bases to defend easier if toss keep splitting to different gas tech option such as pheonix and stalker this push will no longer be viable because you just don't have the gas. Making this "deathball" more gateway heavy will make no different than the normal colo+gateway mid game then how is it imba. The whole reason this was supposed to be good according to Idra and artosis is that due to the high number of high tech/high efficency units in this unit mix, it is hard for zerg to deal a heavy blow to it. If we are adding so many different gas units, the core void ray/colossus will be severally weakened.
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On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything.
if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map 
this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this...
just use the basic advantages of Zerg.
why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas?
Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races.
it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get...
just by seeing your Techbuildings.
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On February 24 2011 20:13 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 18:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are really effective, but as they mention the issue is that Protoss can scout these types of tech routes and just react with something like more Stalker. Mutas are a huge investment and Protoss players in this situation can react pretty easily without having to tech to anything. if only Zerg had an ability that allowed them to hide any techstructures everywhere on the map this argument is so false, Zerg can wait until he is sure which route the enemy goes, then decide to add units, Protoss/Terran can't do this... just use the basic advantages of Zerg. why not build the commond techstructures (Roach/Hydra/Spire) and still go for mutas? Zerg after all has to invest the least cost for tech of all races. it is not like your enemy can see in your mind an see what Unit you are aiming to get... just by seeing your Techbuildings.
Most of you are actually clueless about zerg.
Spire is a heavy tech investment, cost and time wise.
Void Ray colossi is not that strong. Even IdrA admitted it during last SotG. Colossi are units that completly define the match up, but against a void ray colossi ball, you just have to overproduce Corruptors and since the whole army of the protoss is air, even if you overproduce the protoss is screwed if he lose everything because void ray and colossi are expensive and take a while to come out. In fact I have less problem against a Void Ray colossi ball that against a stalker colossi ball that add a mother ship or something like that: you can't do a thing against that kind of play.
Focus colissi with a bunch of corruptors: they go down very fast, then crush the remaining army with roach hydra corruptor. I'm not saying it's not strong nor it is perfectly balance, because it's so easy for protoss to play that kind of thing (expand, take two different tech route at the same time and not dying early ? wtf ? It's like a zerg fast expand and going for muta infestor...) but it's actually playable.
As for mutas, stop talking about it, or play zerg. They are just for harass, period. They can't do nothing else... Good luck massing enough mutas to kill a void ray colossi ball... As CatZ said, and he is one of the most prolific zerg out there, it can only work if your opponent is dumb enough to not scout it during 20 minutes.
My main problem in SC2 is that the tech route for both terran and protoss is easy. You can basicly have any units (except the big ones like battlecruiser, carrier, mothership) at the 10th minute mark. Terran can pop Thor at 7-8 minutes without difficulties... And Mutas comes out after all that, at the 10th minute mark at best : it means you can't just punish any greedy teching except with all in baneling/ling/roach/hydra play. Seriously, Spire cost as much as a Robotic Bay and take TWICE the time. Zerg can't do shit in early game to punish ANY greedy play, that's the only problem. That's why zerg is such a frustrating race at the moment. Colossi void expand should not even exist in mid game, it should only be a possible late game composition.
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EPT
