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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 24 2011 21:59 WhiteDog wrote:
GSL is irrelevant. If you only have zealot void ray and colossi, then it's your loss for not making sentries or stalker
But that's the build we're talking about.
Idra declared 2-gate Voids and 1-robo colo w/Zealots imba. This is the discussion. You can not add stalkers into this build because the voids and colos take all your gas once you start producing them.
but if you see 8 muta (you know the cost of 14 mutas ? it does not come easily) you can easily pop out 4-5 stalker with gatelolzway almost instantly, with the sentries you already have, it will be enough to kill the muta.
4-5 stalkers means less VR and colo (and zealots, because you're using the gates), and a muta-ing player with have a bajillion lings. The protoss can't move out because he only has a small gateway force, and one or two Colo and VR at this point. That means a.) Zerg has map control and b.) The big imba imba imba push is delayed, allowing Zerg more time to expand and have more money to throw at the ball.
Mutas are good, but it's not a solution meta game wise. It's situationnal, you will see it sometime, once in a while in a BO3, but it will never be basic play because you know what, it suck in fair fight if the opponent prepare just a bit for it.
A big-ass Muta ball is actually ludicrously powerful, to the point that it was considered imba for a while before toss discovered the 6-gate (This sound familiar...). Besides, if you force a lot of stalkers, no rule saying you have to stick to Mutas beyond the first few.
Show nested quote +Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets. It's not all in ok, but it's poker play: if you don't do damage, you loose instantly. I'm not sure that's the kind of play that is good in high level, CatZ I think would say the same.
On February 22 2011 23:58 CatZ.root wrote:I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe.
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Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW.
You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard
Mutas shit on void ray ? Try it 20 muta vs 5 void ray and 10 stalker. Sure 200/200 muta, or a big muta, kill a bunch of stalker and void rays.
20 muta. 2000/2000
5 void rays, 10 stalker. 2750/1250.
Maybe now you see why its a pretty even fight? Not even counting the fact that mutas are an amazing harassment unit due to their speed, unlike stalker/void ray.
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Idra and Artosis were driving me crazy with this notion that P can scout (because they have tech for observers and phoenix!) and that they can therefore react with their composition, while Zerg cannot scout and will inevitably over-build corruptors. What happened to the mutalisk? Did they take away the speed upgrade for overseers? And most importantly, if you're building corruptors, scout with your damn corruptors! It's not like it's hard to discover a robo support bay and 2 stargates with an early overseer or speed overlord scout. It takes forever to build 200/200 the 20 voids P wants in your deathball. What's stopping Z from taking a quick third, making 30 corruptors, attacking with the corruptors to clean out the voids and collosi, and maxing out on hydra roach to finish the game? They say they've tested everything, but they really only discussed defending 200/200 collo+void with 200/200 roach+corruptor. There's more options in this game.....
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On February 25 2011 01:39 kcdc wrote:
Idra and Artosis were driving me crazy with this notion that P can scout (because they have tech for observers and phoenix!) and that they can therefore react with their composition, while Zerg cannot scout and will inevitably over-build corruptors.
Even if both Z and P can scout everything for free, the Z is still in a tough spot.
Zerg can either make mass muta to kill every anti-air units, and then clear the rest of protoss units with more muta, or they can make mass corruptors to kill all the colossus and clear the rest with roach/hydra.
However, if Z makes a mix of muta/corruptors, it does not work, because there will be both anti-air and colossus left.
After making muta, or corruptors, zerg can no longer adapt, while protoss still can.
Z may have other solution than muta or corruptors. But the situation will probably be always the same.
It takes forever to build 200/200 the 20 voids P wants in your deathball. What's stopping Z from taking a quick third, making 30 corruptors, attacking with the corruptors to clean out the voids and collosi, and maxing out on hydra roach to finish the game?
The fact that 20 voids will tear apart 30 corruptors, and the colossus will remain unharmed ?
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i think mass mutas will crush it,but perhaps give the corrupters extra dmg to armored units? or slighty increase range of corrupters to 7 or 8 so they can snipe some units bevore the battle actually beginns
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On February 25 2011 00:07 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 21:59 WhiteDog wrote:
GSL is irrelevant. If you only have zealot void ray and colossi, then it's your loss for not making sentries or stalker But that's the build we're talking about. Idra declared 2-gate Voids and 1-robo colo w/Zealots imba. This is the discussion. You can not add stalkers into this build because the voids and colos take all your gas once you start producing them. Show nested quote +but if you see 8 muta (you know the cost of 14 mutas ? it does not come easily) you can easily pop out 4-5 stalker with gatelolzway almost instantly, with the sentries you already have, it will be enough to kill the muta. 4-5 stalkers means less VR and colo (and zealots, because you're using the gates), and a muta-ing player with have a bajillion lings. The protoss can't move out because he only has a small gateway force, and one or two Colo and VR at this point. That means a.) Zerg has map control and b.) The big imba imba imba push is delayed, allowing Zerg more time to expand and have more money to throw at the ball. Show nested quote +Mutas are good, but it's not a solution meta game wise. It's situationnal, you will see it sometime, once in a while in a BO3, but it will never be basic play because you know what, it suck in fair fight if the opponent prepare just a bit for it. A big-ass Muta ball is actually ludicrously powerful, to the point that it was considered imba for a while before toss discovered the 6-gate (This sound familiar...). Besides, if you force a lot of stalkers, no rule saying you have to stick to Mutas beyond the first few. Show nested quote +Nothing is an all-all in else Catz's standard was 7 pool against toss on steppes of war. He doesn't even call it cheese because its not. He knew it as long as he does more damage to the toss with the 7 pool than he lost by going 7 pool he is ahead in the end. Nothing is an absolute all in. Very aggressive builds trades a lot of econ to hope to kill opponent but guess what if you go 7 pool and killed all but 2 scvs are you still all in? I mean 7 pool is about as all in as it gets. It's not all in ok, but it's poker play: if you don't do damage, you loose instantly. I'm not sure that's the kind of play that is good in high level, CatZ I think would say the same. Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 23:58 CatZ.root wrote:I can tell 7 pool on steppes into gold expansion is perfectly viable, and very economical, and in most cases unless hard countered, safe.
1) You are wrong, he never said only void ray colossi & zealot, he pointed zealot as a mineral sink for an heavy void ray & colossi build, but I'm pretty sure he is talking about a 3 gate expand that require a fair amount of sentries (4 to 6) that you build before hand. That's the popular build, or are you talking about a MASS void ray MASS colossi that only works on lost temple were you make so many tower that you are safe ? That's not what they were talking about cauz that build is easily counterable if you scout it in time. Actually, they talk about the size of the gateway army at one point.
2) The big ass muta ball is not valid unless the toss don't see it, that doesn't change my point a bit. Muta in a little number are not fighting units, they get melted in a fair fight even against a composition such as void ray stalker. Now try hiding that you go for a big ass muta ball for 10 minute, because that's the time you need to gather the gaz. And one colo less is nothing really since you basically need fixe to negate any ground force the zerg throw at you, except ultras lol. Delay the muta push for one colo, which is aprox 1 minute, you think that will help the zerg in any way ? The zerg already got all the time he need supposed the protoss go for a 200/200 hundred push, that's the whole point, the unit combo is so good that no matter what you throw at it, you loose. You already have map control in the first place, since the protoss is turtling up. One zergling in patrol is enough.
3) Hahaha, yeah sure, CatZ will soon explain us that a 7 pool into gold expansion is the next basic build order for zerg... The point is, if you know it's coming, you prepare for it, you counter. That's a poker play that you do once in a best of three, not the solution against void ray colossus build... He is just saying that economically it's viable, meaning you have to deal little damage and you are not necessarily at a disadvantage unlike other 6 pool or 7 pool were you absolutly need to make damage or you instantly loose the game. I think he is also pointing out that when you go for a 7 pool, the protoss usually respond by turtling himself, sometimes bringing some cannons up, so you are safe to expand whereever you want.
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On February 25 2011 02:05 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 01:39 kcdc wrote:
Idra and Artosis were driving me crazy with this notion that P can scout (because they have tech for observers and phoenix!) and that they can therefore react with their composition, while Zerg cannot scout and will inevitably over-build corruptors. Even if both Z and P can scout everything for free, the Z is still in a tough spot. Zerg can either make mass muta to kill every anti-air units, and then clear the rest of protoss units with more muta, or they can make mass corruptors to kill all the colossus and clear the rest with roach/hydra. However, if Z makes a mix of muta/corruptors, it does not work, because there will be both anti-air and colossus left. After making muta, or corruptors, zerg can no longer adapt, while protoss still can. Z may have other solution than muta or corruptors. But the situation will probably be always the same. Show nested quote +
It takes forever to build 200/200 the 20 voids P wants in your deathball. What's stopping Z from taking a quick third, making 30 corruptors, attacking with the corruptors to clean out the voids and collosi, and maxing out on hydra roach to finish the game?
The fact that 20 voids will tear apart 30 corruptors, and the colossus will remain unharmed ?
My point is that there's about 10 minutes between when Z can scout support bay + 2 stargates (indicating collo + void) and when P has the 5 collosi and 20 voids he wants for his deathball. Idra and Artosis act like it's a given that P can sit and mass 20 voids untouched during this time, but there's nothing stopping Z from over-producing corruptors early and attacking with the corruptors when P has 8 voids and 2 collosi. People need to understand that this deathball strategy leaves P with crap for army until you've got the magic mix at 200/200 that is double the cost of Z's 200/200 army. Instead of focusing on how to beat the 200/200 mix, Zerg players need to find a way to start killing the void rays before they reach critical mass.
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The fact that 20 voids will tear apart 30 corruptors, and the colossus will remain unharmed ?
Colossus remain unharmed when you focus...down the voids...?
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On February 25 2011 03:31 kcdc wrote:
My point is that there's about 10 minutes between when Z can scout support bay + 2 stargates (indicating collo + void) and when P has the 5 collosi and 20 voids he wants for his deathball. Idra and Artosis act like it's a given that P can sit and mass 20 voids untouched during this time, but there's nothing stopping Z from over-producing corruptors early and attacking with the corruptors when P has 8 voids and 2 collosi. People need to understand that this deathball strategy leaves P with crap for army until you've got the magic mix at 200/200 that is double the cost of Z's 200/200 army. Instead of focusing on how to beat the 200/200 mix, Zerg players need to find a way to start killing the void rays before they reach critical mass.
I agree with this so much. The advantage of map control that Zerg has while Protoss is macro-ing up is massive, and this means you can take many bases while Protoss doesn't have the army to threaten you (of course, you should scout his army to make sure that he isn't just playing standard Gateway + Colossus). Then, while he is trying to pump out his first Void Rays you can just spam Corruptors and Roaches and roll him over.
Just like Muta/ling, this build has a vulnerable spot before the deathball is out, and Z players should exploit that just like P players exploit the Muta/ling build.
What really scared me was the most recent Day[9] Daily - the viability of mass Marine throughout the whole game really seems like a design flaw to me. Sure, the game shown wasn't of MvP/MC level skill on either side, but they were pros and it shocked me just how effective spamming Marines was. I think the Protoss play to respond to mass Marines still needs to be explored and refined, but I don't believe that was how Blizzard intended the match-up to be played, in any case.
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Mutas do not evaporate to stalkers like they do to stimmed marines. Stalkers have low DPS, high retention. Mutas do evaporate against HTs, however, so they're not a game-round tech choice. They're a mid-game unit that is especially strong against void ray or void ray/colossi play. The 6-gate was designed to prevent a muta ling timing from rolling over toss.
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On February 25 2011 00:27 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +
Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW.
You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard
Mutas shit on void ray ? Try it 20 muta vs 5 void ray and 10 stalker. Sure 200/200 muta, or a big muta, kill a bunch of stalker and void rays.
20 muta. 2000/2000 5 void rays, 10 stalker. 2750/1250. Maybe now you see why its a pretty even fight? Not even counting the fact that mutas are an amazing harassment unit due to their speed, unlike stalker/void ray.
Uhm sorry dude. 2000/2000 is way more expensive than 2750/1250. Gas is easily worth 2x as much as minerals, if not 3x or 4x depending on the situation.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:36 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 00:27 Sm3agol wrote:
Baneling bust, roach, it's all all in timing attack. You are not answering for my real point here. We, as zerg, have one less possibilities : harass, and that makes a lot of problem in a game where mass expand is not as rewarding as BW.
You've lost to muta harass and muta ball ? Then you've made big mistake in the game. Muta harass is good, but come late, you can definitly defend it easily without even preventing it or scouting it, unlike banshee. And if the guy go for a muta ball... then seriously if you don't have templar / mother ship / archon to kill it then it's your fault, you got overplayed. Sure, I can kill you with pure zergling, but that's hard
Mutas shit on void ray ? Try it 20 muta vs 5 void ray and 10 stalker. Sure 200/200 muta, or a big muta, kill a bunch of stalker and void rays.
20 muta. 2000/2000 5 void rays, 10 stalker. 2750/1250. Maybe now you see why its a pretty even fight? Not even counting the fact that mutas are an amazing harassment unit due to their speed, unlike stalker/void ray. Uhm sorry dude. 2000/2000 is way more expensive than 2750/1250. Gas is easily worth 2x as much as minerals, if not 3x or 4x depending on the situation.
Good thing you can take a 3rd base with no trouble and get those extra geysers, huh?
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On February 25 2011 03:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 02:05 Elean wrote:On February 25 2011 01:39 kcdc wrote:
Idra and Artosis were driving me crazy with this notion that P can scout (because they have tech for observers and phoenix!) and that they can therefore react with their composition, while Zerg cannot scout and will inevitably over-build corruptors. Even if both Z and P can scout everything for free, the Z is still in a tough spot. Zerg can either make mass muta to kill every anti-air units, and then clear the rest of protoss units with more muta, or they can make mass corruptors to kill all the colossus and clear the rest with roach/hydra. However, if Z makes a mix of muta/corruptors, it does not work, because there will be both anti-air and colossus left. After making muta, or corruptors, zerg can no longer adapt, while protoss still can. Z may have other solution than muta or corruptors. But the situation will probably be always the same.
It takes forever to build 200/200 the 20 voids P wants in your deathball. What's stopping Z from taking a quick third, making 30 corruptors, attacking with the corruptors to clean out the voids and collosi, and maxing out on hydra roach to finish the game?
The fact that 20 voids will tear apart 30 corruptors, and the colossus will remain unharmed ? My point is that there's about 10 minutes between when Z can scout support bay + 2 stargates (indicating collo + void) and when P has the 5 collosi and 20 voids he wants for his deathball. Idra and Artosis act like it's a given that P can sit and mass 20 voids untouched during this time, but there's nothing stopping Z from over-producing corruptors early and attacking with the corruptors when P has 8 voids and 2 collosi. People need to understand that this deathball strategy leaves P with crap for army until you've got the magic mix at 200/200 that is double the cost of Z's 200/200 army. Instead of focusing on how to beat the 200/200 mix, Zerg players need to find a way to start killing the void rays before they reach critical mass.
Wow lol this is the first intelligent comment I've seen in this whole post XD hahah props man props....I was thinkin bout the same thing but I wanted to see how long it would take before anyone figured it out XD
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Yea...sure this can be done...but not all zergs are at this calibur of play haha....Catz is just nuts is all..but also, I keep saying....zerg just don't know how to use their variety of units to the max yet....lots of units are still underused...while terran and protoss make full use of all their units now...
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On February 25 2011 03:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 02:05 Elean wrote:On February 25 2011 01:39 kcdc wrote:
Idra and Artosis were driving me crazy with this notion that P can scout (because they have tech for observers and phoenix!) and that they can therefore react with their composition, while Zerg cannot scout and will inevitably over-build corruptors. Even if both Z and P can scout everything for free, the Z is still in a tough spot. Zerg can either make mass muta to kill every anti-air units, and then clear the rest of protoss units with more muta, or they can make mass corruptors to kill all the colossus and clear the rest with roach/hydra. However, if Z makes a mix of muta/corruptors, it does not work, because there will be both anti-air and colossus left. After making muta, or corruptors, zerg can no longer adapt, while protoss still can. Z may have other solution than muta or corruptors. But the situation will probably be always the same.
It takes forever to build 200/200 the 20 voids P wants in your deathball. What's stopping Z from taking a quick third, making 30 corruptors, attacking with the corruptors to clean out the voids and collosi, and maxing out on hydra roach to finish the game?
The fact that 20 voids will tear apart 30 corruptors, and the colossus will remain unharmed ? My point is that there's about 10 minutes between when Z can scout support bay + 2 stargates (indicating collo + void) and when P has the 5 collosi and 20 voids he wants for his deathball. Idra and Artosis act like it's a given that P can sit and mass 20 voids untouched during this time, but there's nothing stopping Z from over-producing corruptors early and attacking with the corruptors when P has 8 voids and 2 collosi. People need to understand that this deathball strategy leaves P with crap for army until you've got the magic mix at 200/200 that is double the cost of Z's 200/200 army. Instead of focusing on how to beat the 200/200 mix, Zerg players need to find a way to start killing the void rays before they reach critical mass.
Don't you see a problem when your suggestion is "win sooner so the game doesn't get to this point" as a solution?
It's like saying Jungle basin isn't imbalanced TvZ because zerg can 6 pool.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 25 2011 08:04 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 03:31 kcdc wrote:On February 25 2011 02:05 Elean wrote:On February 25 2011 01:39 kcdc wrote:
Idra and Artosis were driving me crazy with this notion that P can scout (because they have tech for observers and phoenix!) and that they can therefore react with their composition, while Zerg cannot scout and will inevitably over-build corruptors. Even if both Z and P can scout everything for free, the Z is still in a tough spot. Zerg can either make mass muta to kill every anti-air units, and then clear the rest of protoss units with more muta, or they can make mass corruptors to kill all the colossus and clear the rest with roach/hydra. However, if Z makes a mix of muta/corruptors, it does not work, because there will be both anti-air and colossus left. After making muta, or corruptors, zerg can no longer adapt, while protoss still can. Z may have other solution than muta or corruptors. But the situation will probably be always the same.
It takes forever to build 200/200 the 20 voids P wants in your deathball. What's stopping Z from taking a quick third, making 30 corruptors, attacking with the corruptors to clean out the voids and collosi, and maxing out on hydra roach to finish the game?
The fact that 20 voids will tear apart 30 corruptors, and the colossus will remain unharmed ? My point is that there's about 10 minutes between when Z can scout support bay + 2 stargates (indicating collo + void) and when P has the 5 collosi and 20 voids he wants for his deathball. Idra and Artosis act like it's a given that P can sit and mass 20 voids untouched during this time, but there's nothing stopping Z from over-producing corruptors early and attacking with the corruptors when P has 8 voids and 2 collosi. People need to understand that this deathball strategy leaves P with crap for army until you've got the magic mix at 200/200 that is double the cost of Z's 200/200 army. Instead of focusing on how to beat the 200/200 mix, Zerg players need to find a way to start killing the void rays before they reach critical mass. Don't you see a problem when your suggestion is "win sooner so the game doesn't get to this point" as a solution? It's like saying Jungle basin isn't imbalanced TvZ because zerg can 6 pool.
If your opponent's strategy is to build up the awesome force of ultimate doom, built of some absurdly strong, expensive units that are hard to kill when grouped, then the obvious strategy to beat him is to kill him before he's done.
That's like crying that being maxxed on nothing but carriers or battlecruisers or something equally ridiculous is IMBA because they're so freaking strong in numbers that large that you can't stop them. Well, duh. Just kill him before he's anywhere near done.
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On February 25 2011 08:04 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 03:31 kcdc wrote:On February 25 2011 02:05 Elean wrote:On February 25 2011 01:39 kcdc wrote:
Idra and Artosis were driving me crazy with this notion that P can scout (because they have tech for observers and phoenix!) and that they can therefore react with their composition, while Zerg cannot scout and will inevitably over-build corruptors. Even if both Z and P can scout everything for free, the Z is still in a tough spot. Zerg can either make mass muta to kill every anti-air units, and then clear the rest of protoss units with more muta, or they can make mass corruptors to kill all the colossus and clear the rest with roach/hydra. However, if Z makes a mix of muta/corruptors, it does not work, because there will be both anti-air and colossus left. After making muta, or corruptors, zerg can no longer adapt, while protoss still can. Z may have other solution than muta or corruptors. But the situation will probably be always the same.
It takes forever to build 200/200 the 20 voids P wants in your deathball. What's stopping Z from taking a quick third, making 30 corruptors, attacking with the corruptors to clean out the voids and collosi, and maxing out on hydra roach to finish the game?
The fact that 20 voids will tear apart 30 corruptors, and the colossus will remain unharmed ? My point is that there's about 10 minutes between when Z can scout support bay + 2 stargates (indicating collo + void) and when P has the 5 collosi and 20 voids he wants for his deathball. Idra and Artosis act like it's a given that P can sit and mass 20 voids untouched during this time, but there's nothing stopping Z from over-producing corruptors early and attacking with the corruptors when P has 8 voids and 2 collosi. People need to understand that this deathball strategy leaves P with crap for army until you've got the magic mix at 200/200 that is double the cost of Z's 200/200 army. Instead of focusing on how to beat the 200/200 mix, Zerg players need to find a way to start killing the void rays before they reach critical mass. Don't you see a problem when your suggestion is "win sooner so the game doesn't get to this point" as a solution? It's like saying Jungle basin isn't imbalanced TvZ because zerg can 6 pool.
It's not "win sooner"--it's "trade units sooner". Let's pretend that there's a critical mass when P has 14 void rays and 4 collosi with some gateway support after which point Z just doesn't have a good way to trade units on equal footing. Well, in order to get 14 void rays and 4 collosi, P will need to have 5 void rays and 1 collosus at some point along the way, and given the tech costs of a robo support bay, extended thermal lance and 2 stargates (700 gas in infrastructure alone), I suspect that Zerg could design a timing that would AT LEAST be able to thin out the void ray numbers. Hell, Zerg gets a third base for free against this strategy, so it doesn't even need to be cost-effective. Z just needs to focus on preventing P from getting that perfect composition.
Collo+void isn't even the perfect PvZ deathball. Mothership+archon is better.
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Idra loves his Mutas surely he should know how fast they destroy void rays leaving collosi and zealots which aren't the best anti air units.. :D
Also Mutas are cheaper than corruptors and have the 3 bounce damage. They're weaker so toss can't charge their void rays. I don't see how this build hasn't been mentioned. But agreed corrupters need a buff right now all they're good for is broodlords.
Bronze coming in clutch?
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I feel that zerg dosent need a buff vs cols
I gave it allot of thought and came to the conclusion that if cols could damage there own units with there aoe, it would kind of restrict the number of cols they would want to make for fear of surrounds, drops (anything to get the splash to damage his units as well) ect.
burrowed roaches, infested terrans, would both be a reasonable approach
I believe it would fix allot of issues in pvsp and zvsp
And force toss to work on another source of tech strategy with or without there cols, once players find ways to explore this change. I don't feel its really a nerf
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EPT
