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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:06 PetRockSteve wrote: http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/2011-dallas-starcraft2-champ.html Pool B: Ret 1-3 Then lost to Huk in round 5 of the losers bracket. Thanks. Don't know what else to say,i thinkyou got my point. Intersting, that Ret lost to 3 (?) Terrans and then got into, well ... HuK. | ||
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Zinjil
United States166 Posts
On April 18 2011 23:52 gnutz wrote: Ret wasn't there and as a European i don't consider Sheth, Machine and Slush big names, sorry. DONT YOU SEE THAT THE ZERGS IN THESE LITTLE TOURNAMENTS ARE ALSO COMPLETELY UNKNOWN ZERGS??? For god's sake, of course Idra could win a little tournament, but if there is a tournament where two players less trained than Idra clash and the Zerg wins, it proves that they can win. And dare you to say "these Zergs must have a much higher skill than their opponents therefore." thats dumb. not considering some of the top NA zerg players at a mostly NA event big names is probably a mistake on your part. Sheth, machine, slush, and of course idra are probably four of the top 5 zerg players stateside. the point people are trying to make, if I'm reading it right, is that smaller tournaments have a lesser amount of skill involved and much higher variation in the players' skillsets, and if you are a person trying to prove or disprove imbalance, you need to have people at the highest echelons of play to really display it. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
Oh, community feedback is a source of balance information for blizzard... | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Just look at http://wellplayed.org/channel/top 3/5 top streams are Zerg players. Players like Destiny and Spanishiwa who have no real big tournament accolades still remain on the top of the list beating out incredible players like Tyler, Huk, Jinro, InControl, and TLO. MrBitter's has exploded on to the scene because people were ravenous for his content and have been incredibly happy to support his efforts and now he's also on the 1st page of wellplayed's top streams and on a team. Even when he's not coaching he still pulls in good viewer numbers from what I've seen. You can almost always tell who a Zerg player is going to root for, it's gonna be the Zerg who is playing. Moreso than any other race it seems like Zerg's are loyal to anyone who plays their race. No matter how much I like how Select, Jinro, or other P/T players play, if they're facing a Zerg I'm rooting for the Zerg even if it's a Zerg player I don't like. Look at the strategy forums! The Zerg strategy posts are everywhere and overflowing with replies. Spanishwa's strategy has 645 posts in 19 days. His thread averaging 9,723 views a day. His thread ALREADY has more views than the incredibly popular iEchoic TvT strategy and that was posted in feb. and is still an active (front page) thread. Why do you think Zerg players post so much in the LR threads when zergs play? Because we care! Basically to everyone who's saying Zerg's don't try, or we just whine, or anything like that: fuck off. The Zerg community is way better than whatever race you play. Hell it's probably the reason a lot of people still play zerg. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:13 Jiddra wrote: How does Blizzard balance Starcraft 2? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmz6sWVl2Z0&feature=player_detailpage#t=149s Oh, community feedback is a source of balance information for blizzard... I would ask them if Idra is a source of Pro-Feedback.  | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:16 Logo wrote: One thing that's really pissing me off about the counter whine or whatever is that people are totally ignoring the fact that the Zerg race is the tighest knit and most organized community out of all three races and I can say that with no doubt or lack of confidence. Just look at http://wellplayed.org/channel/top 3/5 top streams are Zerg players. Players like Destiny and Spanishiwa who have no real big tournament accolades still remain on the top of the list beating out players like Tyler, Huk, Jinro, and TLO. MrBitter's has exploded on to the scene because people were ravenous for his content and have been incredibly happy to support his efforts and now he's also on the 1st page of wellplayed's top streams and on a team. Even when he's not coaching he still pulls in good viewer numbers from what I've seen. You can almost always tell who a Zerg player is going to root for, it's gonna be the Zerg who is playing. Moreso than any other race it seems like Zerg's are loyal to anyone who plays their race. No matter how much I like how Select, Jinro, or other P/T players play, if they're facing a Zerg I'm rooting for the Zerg even if it's a Zerg player I don't like. Look at the strategy forums! The Zerg strategy posts are everywhere and overflowing with replies. Spanishwa's strategy has 645 posts in 19 days. His thread averaging 9,723 views a day. His thread ALREADY has more views than the incredibly popular iEchoic TvT strategy and that was posted in feb. and is still an active (front page) thread. Why do you think Zerg players post so much in the LR threads when zergs play? Because we care! Basically to everyone who's saying Zerg's don't try, or we just whine, or anything like that: fuck off. The Zerg community is way better than whatever race you play. Hell it's probably the reason a lot of people still play zerg. I agree with everything, but there's a big point you seem to miss. In terran and protoss strategy threads, people are helping each other, refining the builds, even the seemingly dumb ones are tried and sometime very good things are coming out of them. People are posting a lot of replays. If you read zerg threads, you'll see a bunch of theorycraft saying that the build is useless. Perhaps it's not as clear cut, but as you cited the spanishiwa and the iechoic thread, I urge you to read both and see for yourself. (as I said, I agree with the rest of the post) | ||
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Zinjil
United States166 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:14 zeru wrote: I think he means that you cant compare players like sheth slush machine to players such as kiwi socke huk select sjow nani tyler. Just like you cant compare gretorp agh mihai to those. If that's what he means then he's wrong and based on even just the previous MLG results the players I listed bested some of the players they're supposedly not in the same league as. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Zinjil
United States166 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:24 MrCon wrote: I agree with everything, but there's a big point you seem to miss. In terran and protoss strategy threads, people are helping each other, refining the builds, even the seemingly dumb ones are tried and sometime very good things are coming out of them. People are posting a lot of replays. If you read zerg threads, you'll see a bunch of theorycraft saying that the build is useless. Perhaps it's not as clear cut, but as you cited the spanishiwa and the iechoic thread, I urge you to read both and see for yourself. (as I said, I agree with the rest of the post) True, but that's just one example and it's a pretty out-there build. Since it's a defensive opening guide it's also pretty expected to have people argue more about "the build will hold" or "it will fail". Still there's plenty of constructive comments in a lot of the zerg threads now that we have the Purge. You can also go look at something like MrBitter's ZvT thread about going for infestors ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193058¤tpage=20 ). A ton of thoughtful replies about a strategy that really wasn't new at all (it had some limited popularity back in early beta and when TLO played Zerg). | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:25 Zinjil wrote: If that's what he means then he's wrong and based on even just the previous MLG results the players I listed bested some of the players they're supposedly not in the same league as. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1301_Sheth Showmatch, Invitational, Showmatch etc. 8 entries http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1595_SLush Showmatch, Showmatch, Showmatch, regional tournament, 7 entries http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1698_DarKFoRcE (who also isn't fulltime, unlike Naniwa and Ret) Cup, Cup, Cup, Showmatch, Cup, Cup etc. 15 entries You know what the difference between Showmatches, Invitationals and Cups is? As long as they don't win anything big or a cup of cups, i don't consider them the same skill-level as them europeans. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10854 Posts
It's not really a timezone Issue because some of these Cups would be on Weekends were it wouldn't be a problem for europeans to watch them? I'm allways a little baffled if Incontrol, Day9 and or others say: "People don't give these guys enough Credit for how good they are"... Well whiteout intensive research there is actually not that much of a chance to see them (before NASL, if their in it), they didn't qualify in the TSL (because the euros pretty much dominated the qualifications except for Cruncher?), they didn't make a BIG (!!!!) showing at MLG (yet)... It's just kinda hard to "know" about them. | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:16 Logo wrote: One thing that's really pissing me off about the counter whine or whatever is that people are totally ignoring the fact that the Zerg race is the tighest knit and most organized community out of all three races and I can say that with no doubt or lack of confidence. Just look at http://wellplayed.org/channel/top 3/5 top streams are Zerg players. Players like Destiny and Spanishiwa who have no real big tournament accolades still remain on the top of the list beating out incredible players like Tyler, Huk, Jinro, InControl, and TLO. MrBitter's has exploded on to the scene because people were ravenous for his content and have been incredibly happy to support his efforts and now he's also on the 1st page of wellplayed's top streams and on a team. Even when he's not coaching he still pulls in good viewer numbers from what I've seen. You can almost always tell who a Zerg player is going to root for, it's gonna be the Zerg who is playing. Moreso than any other race it seems like Zerg's are loyal to anyone who plays their race. No matter how much I like how Select, Jinro, or other P/T players play, if they're facing a Zerg I'm rooting for the Zerg even if it's a Zerg player I don't like. Look at the strategy forums! The Zerg strategy posts are everywhere and overflowing with replies. Spanishwa's strategy has 645 posts in 19 days. His thread averaging 9,723 views a day. His thread ALREADY has more views than the incredibly popular iEchoic TvT strategy and that was posted in feb. and is still an active (front page) thread. Why do you think Zerg players post so much in the LR threads when zergs play? Because we care! Basically to everyone who's saying Zerg's don't try, or we just whine, or anything like that: fuck off. The Zerg community is way better than whatever race you play. Hell it's probably the reason a lot of people still play zerg. Idra, Sheth, and Destiny are in the top 5, but Spanishiwa is below Tyler, Huk, and Incontrol. I don't know what you were looking at, but that is a little misleading. I also wouldn't use wellplayed.org as a good source seeing as they are a new website. If in 3 months time 3 zergs still make up the top 5, you have a point. I also think that it is disingenuous to point out the amount of people posting in Zerg threads seeing as Terrans and Protoss also post in Zerg threads. Finally, very few people are saying that Zergs do not try, just whine, or whatever. People are saying Zergs should whine less and be more experimental. More experimental implies that they recognize that Zergs do experiment. And as has been pointed out before, other races have whined before. Most anti-whine people just advocate patience when it comes to Zerg balance. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On April 18 2011 23:14 Dragar wrote: Is there going to be discussion of the NASL map madness on State of the Game? It sounds like there's some serious confusion been happening. Yeah I intend to say everything I know about the issue. I don't think there's anything to discuss about it. I think we'll explain the situation and everyone will say "well that's unfortunate" and move on | ||
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Zinjil
United States166 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:34 gnutz wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1301_Sheth Showmatch, Invitational, Showmatch etc. 8 entries http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1595_SLush Showmatch, Showmatch, Showmatch, regional tournament, 7 entries http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1698_DarKFoRcE (who also isn't fulltime, unlike Naniwa and Ret) Cup, Cup, Cup, Showmatch, Cup, Cup etc. 15 entries You know what the difference between Showmatches, Invitationals and Cups is? As long as they don't win anything big or a cup of cups, i don't consider them the same skill-level as them europeans. Are you unaware that there are very few weekly cups to participate in in North America in comparison to European events? EU has a very rigorous system of Bo1 or Bo3 weekly tournaments, where NA mostly has MLGs and is just starting to have NASL, IGN proleague, etc and previously there was nearly nothing of the same caliber. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:40 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Yeah I intend to say everything I know about the issue. I don't think there's anything to discuss about it. I think we'll explain the situation and everyone will say "well that's unfortunate" and move on Cool, thanks Tyler. I figured it will come down to a 'Yeah, that sucks' but it's all been very confusing for most of the viewership lately. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:40 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Yeah I intend to say everything I know about the issue. I don't think there's anything to discuss about it. I think we'll explain the situation and everyone will say "well that's unfortunate" and move on If there is something that might affect group play I hope players will protest and demand some kind of fix. And how is players responding to these "on the fly" fixes to delayed/canceled matches? How will the groups play out with some players having less game splayed then others etc etc. Very interesting topics to get some pro insight to for the viewers. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
Also there is really little whining from the Terran players, while TvP coud be considered more imbalanced than ZvP, because they have only a 40 % winrate nowadays. But i think also Terran players know that they have been strong before and now Protoss managed to have good strategies against them, they realize it's their turn to invent new stuff. And also it is because there are not this many Terran-Pros who honestly cry their heart out because of imbalance. Honestly to this point it is really surprising how little Terran crying is going on. Props to them ! (I know that they're having a hard time against Protoss.) | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:40 flowSthead wrote: Idra, Sheth, and Destiny are in the top 5, but Spanishiwa is below Tyler, Huk, and Incontrol. I don't know what you were looking at, but that is a little misleading. I also wouldn't use wellplayed.org as a good source seeing as they are a new website. If in 3 months time 3 zergs still make up the top 5, you have a point. I also think that it is disingenuous to point out the amount of people posting in Zerg threads seeing as Terrans and Protoss also post in Zerg threads. Finally, very few people are saying that Zergs do not try, just whine, or whatever. People are saying Zergs should whine less and be more experimental. More experimental implies that they recognize that Zergs do experiment. And as has been pointed out before, other races have whined before. Most anti-whine people just advocate patience when it comes to Zerg balance. It's still pretty clear the Zerg community is incredibly active. I use wellplayed.org because it shows clear #s of some sort. We all know that the players I listed have incredibly popular streams (and yes spanishwa is lower on the list, my wording was poor). A big part of my point is saying, "Whine less, experiment more" seems like a big insult to all the hard work that Zerg players are putting in because it implies they aren't experimenting as much as they are. The amount of work even someone like IdrA has put into his ZvP is staggering. His ZvP has developed so much in the past 1-2 months and in his NASL games you can just see his hard work again and again. CatZ is probably the most experimental player in all of SC2, Spanishwa has pushed hard to popularize a new strategy, and MrBitter's tries to bring everything Zerg together to form stronger strategies. Saying experiment more just seems really dismissive given all the hard work these Zerg players are putting in. | ||
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