On April 18 2011 16:58 Tachion wrote: He's addressed those race switching comments before. He enjoys playing Zerg more, doesn't want to take the time to relearn another race at the highest levels, and thinks the game will be balanced eventually and doesn't want to be playing another race when that happens.
Why expect the game to balance after, in his opinion, 8 months of being broken. Since protoss is so "easy" it shouldn't be too hard right.
The funniest/most depressing thing I could imagine is if IdrA beat Ret with Protoss. Ret is the only guy that seems more bummed about being Zerg than IdrA.
On April 18 2011 16:55 gnutz wrote: How about switching to Protoss Idra? HotS still wasn't announced and if Zerg is so broken there is no way it gets better before the expansion.
There is still more chance of success if you play another race than if you play a broken race.
he told like 10 times, he likes zerg, and switching to another race, even if they are easier, takes a couple of months to master the nuances, meanwhile Z could get buffed, and meanwhile he's not competing for a lot of money (i added the last part, but the rest is almost word by word)
On April 18 2011 14:15 flowSthead wrote: This is from a few pages back but I wanted to point out that in the TSL round of 32 Zergs lost 3 matches to Protoss and 3 matches to Terrans. In the round of 16 there were 2 Zerg losses to Protoss and 1 Zerg loss to Terran.
Even if Zergs are underpowered, which I am not admitting they are but I am admitting there is a possibility, it is not necessarily to Protoss. Protoss is just the most dramatic because the "Death Ball" makes it look so dramatic. Judging by TSL, which people are bringing up because of the Cruncher game, they are doing equally poorly against Terran as well. Yet for some reason, no one cries TvZ to be broken. I wonder why that is?
Following up on this, I will take a look at NASL matches, ignoring mirror matchups.
Zergs are doing poorly in TSL, not so poorly in NASL. Suprise, suprise. One tournament really doesn't tell you anything.
can't compare TSL and NASL
they are entirely different types of leagues
If you can't compare two tournaments where people have enough time to know who they are going to be playing ahead of time and on what maps, then what can you compare?
On April 18 2011 14:15 flowSthead wrote: This is from a few pages back but I wanted to point out that in the TSL round of 32 Zergs lost 3 matches to Protoss and 3 matches to Terrans. In the round of 16 there were 2 Zerg losses to Protoss and 1 Zerg loss to Terran.
Even if Zergs are underpowered, which I am not admitting they are but I am admitting there is a possibility, it is not necessarily to Protoss. Protoss is just the most dramatic because the "Death Ball" makes it look so dramatic. Judging by TSL, which people are bringing up because of the Cruncher game, they are doing equally poorly against Terran as well. Yet for some reason, no one cries TvZ to be broken. I wonder why that is?
Following up on this, I will take a look at NASL matches, ignoring mirror matchups.
Zergs are doing poorly in TSL, not so poorly in NASL. Suprise, suprise. One tournament really doesn't tell you anything.
can't compare TSL and NASL
they are entirely different types of leagues
If you can't compare two tournaments where people have enough time to know who they are going to be playing ahead of time and on what maps, then what can you compare?
I'm fairly sure that players in NASL DON'T have enough time to prepare for the maps they are playing on (either that or they are poorly informed). Also a majority of the players in TSL3 are seeded from TL Opens, so a closer comparison would be to the Ro16 of NASL.
On April 18 2011 16:58 Tachion wrote: He's addressed those race switching comments before. He enjoys playing Zerg more, doesn't want to take the time to relearn another race at the highest levels, and thinks the game will be balanced eventually and doesn't want to be playing another race when that happens.
Why expect the game to balance after, in his opinion, 8 months of being broken. Since protoss is so "easy" it shouldn't be too hard right.
I think its fair to say that based on the previous patches there has been steady improvements made to zerg (fungel growth being the most recent and roach range increase). Also, KA was removed which was another major change.
To assume this trend will continue is not far fetched.
"Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.
Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak."
Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching.
I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening.
There are only winners and losers.
"Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi
"Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley
Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it
Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments!
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?"
so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters
In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with.
yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it.
lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!!
Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read.
On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote: here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol "thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)" "if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed" "if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down." "there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion" "protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler "protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can." "the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran" "terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that" "composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage.
There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject.
Rofl, that is such a terribly unfair comparison. That happened AGES ago, before Protoss crying even reached it's peak. Waaaay back when gateway units were considered awful against MM (before double forge) and Protoss rushed to Colossus before expanding. 3 Rax was ripping Toss apart. Terran never expanded until the 12min mark (though some of that still remains )
Now lets Fast Forward to October-November--- when Protoss "qq" reached it's peak and the 110 page thread about how terrible Protoss is emerged.
What did Tyler do in that situation?.
When Protoss were considered awful against Zerg, HE was saying Protoss just had to work out thier timings. HE invented the 6gate push against Zerg, which he show cased against IdrA in a BO7--which he won 4-0. This was when Protoss winrate against Zerg dropped to something like 40% on the Korean Ladder and Blizzard publicly acknowledged they fealt Protoss was a little weak, when people like Kiwikaki couldn't beat a good Zerg if his life depended on it. Did Tyler cry about imbalance? Did Kiwikaki every cry about imbalance? (well publicly lol)
What about Terran? When it looked like you had to be three times as good as your Terran opponent to actually ever win, when people like Genius/oGsMC lost 2-0 to awful players. During that time he never cried about Protoss being weak. Infact he took HongUn's double forge build and popularized it.
He may have been cycnical at one stage, but when Protoss was at their worst he never complained, but rather developed the metagame for Protoss.
Tyler single handedly popularized the double forge build which is SO common these days, could you imagine if Tyler didn't pick up the build and refine it? How would PvT be looking right now if it wasn't for Tyler? How would PvZ be looking for a LOT of players if it wasn't for InControl popularizing the 3gate Sentry expand? There is a massive thread in the strategy that is dedicated to InControls "standard" PvZ style.
At least show Tyler some respect, because he deserves much better than the abuse he is getting in this thread, especially considering how much he--and people like Day[9] and InControl have done for this game and the community (STOG, Actively communicating with people on the forums, etc)
On April 18 2011 21:20 itmeJP wrote: In other news, I've just figured out running four instances of Skype will help smooth out the webcam shenanigans! This changes everything.
Carry on with your derailing folks, nothing to see here...
Oh my god, I've never actually read this thread beyond the first page. I'm sitting here thinking, hmm what's going on in a state of the game thread on a monday morning.
On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote: [quote] or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it
Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments!
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?"
so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters
In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with.
yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it.
lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!!
Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read.
On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote: here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol "thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)" "if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed" "if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down." "there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion" "protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler "protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can." "the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran" "terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that" "composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage.
There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject.
Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it.
pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff.
zerg is broken.
...except for the code S GSL zergs who are asking to face protoss opponents.
I'd question whether complaining about a race at release is an argument in your favor.
Starcraft is a pretty frustrating game when you're losing, and I highly doubt anyone who loses regularly at this game (anyone who plays this game regularly falls into this category) can say their perspective is an unbiased and fair one.
The only things we can agree on are the facts: protoss is winning sometimes, zerg is winning sometimes, and terran is winning sometimes. Many thought Terran was the best race at release, and apparently many believe Protoss is the best race now.
From how I understand it, the numbers at the top indicate the place they finished in.
So reading it it would mean that Terran had 28 people win a tournament, Protoss won 20 tournaments, Zerg won 26 tournaments, and then 32 second place finishes for Terran, 25 second place finishes for P, 15 for zerg, and so on.
That is my guess.
But I have no idea what he is trying to prove, since the PvZ problems have only been manifesting themself over the course of the couple of weeks, and taking tournament results since release is always gonna be a bit iffy.
I mean terran is doing great, would you say that terran is overpowered then?
And also zerg has a huge drop-off after the first place.
If you want to prove a point actually do it with some meaningfull stuff.
That argument doesn't work any more (I'm not sure why it ever did, as the statistics never really showed zerg being unpopular, just unsuccessful. EU in particular has always had a huge zerg population).
Zergs are opening all the doors they come across, but they still haven't found the one leading to the bathroom, but you know, eventually you just have to go, that's why there's shit all over this thread.
On April 18 2011 23:07 Icx wrote: From how I understand it, the numbers at the top indicate the place they finished in.
So reading it it would mean that Terran had 28 people win a tournament, Protoss won 20 tournaments, Zerg won 26 tournaments, and then 32 second place finishes for Terran, 25 second place finishes for P, 15 for zerg, and so on.
That is my guess.
You right. It's from a german forum so i forgot to put it in context.
Okay, didn't know Terran gets less played than Zerg now oO, but Protoss still is the most played race in all leagues on all servers.
And what these statistics mean, is that Zerg has no worse tournament results than other races. Nothing else. But Idra thinks (honestly) Zerg can't win anything. He is not right.
Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it
Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments!
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?"
so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters
In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with.
yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it.
lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!!
Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read.
On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote: here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol "thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)" "if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed" "if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down." "there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion" "protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler "protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can." "the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran" "terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that" "composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage.
There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject.
Rofl, that is such a terribly unfair comparison. That happened AGES ago, before Protoss crying even reached it's peak. Waaaay back when gateway units were considered awful against MM (before double forge) and Protoss rushed to Colossus before expanding. 3 Rax was ripping Toss apart. Terran never expanded until the 12min mark (though some of that still remains )
Now lets Fast Forward to October-November--- when Protoss "qq" reached it's peak and the 110 page thread about how terrible Protoss is emerged.
What did Tyler do in that situation?.
When Protoss were considered awful against Zerg, HE was saying Protoss just had to work out thier timings. HE invented the 6gate push against Zerg, which he show cased against IdrA in a BO7--which he won 4-0. This was when Protoss winrate against Zerg dropped to something like 40% on the Korean Ladder and Blizzard publicly acknowledged they fealt Protoss was a little weak, when people like Kiwikaki couldn't beat a good Zerg if his life depended on it. Did Tyler cry about imbalance? Did Kiwikaki every cry about imbalance? (well publicly lol)
What about Terran? When it looked like you had to be three times as good as your Terran opponent to actually ever win, when people like Genius/oGsMC lost 2-0 to awful players. During that time he never cried about Protoss being weak. Infact he took HongUn's double forge build and popularized it.
He may have been cycnical at one stage, but when Protoss was at their worst he never complained, but rather developed the metagame for Protoss.
Tyler single handedly popularized the double forge build which is SO common these days, could you imagine if Tyler didn't pick up the build and refine it? How would PvT be looking right now if it wasn't for Tyler? How would PvZ be looking for a LOT of players if it wasn't for InControl popularizing the 3gate Sentry expand? There is a massive thread in the strategy that is dedicated to InControls "standard" PvZ style.
At least show Tyler some respect, because he deserves much better than the abuse he is getting in this thread, especially considering how much he--and people like Day[9] and InControl have done for this game and the community (STOG, Actively communicating with people on the forums, etc)
EPT
lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!!![[image loading]](http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/207484_721513374514_26305351_37310198_4232309_n.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2542/3959032918_f2722806dd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www8.pic-upload.de/18.04.11/zkwjvxfwmpw4.png)
