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@anonmice if you read about two pages bacl, you'll see why.
I just find it stupid how Tyler helps the community, and all everyone does is trash him....
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Poor Tyler. He's had a tough run lately.
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Tyler is a protoss templar of the highest order and will crush his foes. Just watch and see 
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On April 18 2011 12:39 Axel.Bowex wrote:
@anonmice if you read about two pages bacl, you'll see why.
I just find it stupid how Tyler helps the community, and all everyone does is trash him....
Double standards!
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On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it.
So these are some confidential letters to pros that leaked out to public by accident?  If so (or not), what do you think Blizzard aim to achieve with these?
Situation Report: Patch 1.1 and Beyond
Situation Report: Patch 1.3
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On April 18 2011 13:03 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. So these are some confidential letters to pros that leaked out to public by accident? If so (or not), what do you think Blizzard aim to achieve with these? Situation Report: Patch 1.1 and BeyondSituation Report: Patch 1.3
How does that have anything to do with what pros are reporting to blizzard? As far as I can see that's just blizzard explaining their own reasoning behind the changes they've made and doesn't touch at all upon how much, if at all, these were in any way influenced by their feedback from progamers.
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This is from a few pages back but I wanted to point out that in the TSL round of 32 Zergs lost 3 matches to Protoss and 3 matches to Terrans. In the round of 16 there were 2 Zerg losses to Protoss and 1 Zerg loss to Terran.
Even if Zergs are underpowered, which I am not admitting they are but I am admitting there is a possibility, it is not necessarily to Protoss. Protoss is just the most dramatic because the "Death Ball" makes it look so dramatic. Judging by TSL, which people are bringing up because of the Cruncher game, they are doing equally poorly against Terran as well. Yet for some reason, no one cries TvZ to be broken. I wonder why that is?
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On April 18 2011 14:04 Badboyrune wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 13:03 usethis2 wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. So these are some confidential letters to pros that leaked out to public by accident? If so (or not), what do you think Blizzard aim to achieve with these? Situation Report: Patch 1.1 and BeyondSituation Report: Patch 1.3 How does that have anything to do with what pros are reporting to blizzard? As far as I can see that's just blizzard explaining their own reasoning behind the changes they've made and doesn't touch at all upon how much, if at all, these were in any way influenced by their feedback from progamers.
Not sure about 1.1, but 1.3 was leaked by a pro player. Hence proving that they are in contact with pro players? Unless they randomly guessed most of the changes...
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On April 18 2011 14:15 flowSthead wrote:
This is from a few pages back but I wanted to point out that in the TSL round of 32 Zergs lost 3 matches to Protoss and 3 matches to Terrans. In the round of 16 there were 2 Zerg losses to Protoss and 1 Zerg loss to Terran.
Even if Zergs are underpowered, which I am not admitting they are but I am admitting there is a possibility, it is not necessarily to Protoss. Protoss is just the most dramatic because the "Death Ball" makes it look so dramatic. Judging by TSL, which people are bringing up because of the Cruncher game, they are doing equally poorly against Terran as well. Yet for some reason, no one cries TvZ to be broken. I wonder why that is?
Following up on this, I will take a look at NASL matches, ignoring mirror matchups.
PvZ - 5 matches, 3 Zerg wins 2 Protoss wins
TvZ - 6 matches, 3 Zerg wins 3 Terran wins
PvT - 4 Matches, 3 Terran wins 1 Protoss wins
6 Zerg wins, 6 Terran wins, 3 Protoss wins.
Zergs are doing poorly in TSL, not so poorly in NASL. Suprise, suprise. One tournament really doesn't tell you anything.
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On April 18 2011 11:27 ImHuko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:15 Axel.Bowex wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it.  lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Dude, think about how stressful it must be to lose so many times when you clearly deserve to win at least something. Tyler has never publically complained about imbalance once (besides NASL). He never blames it on imbalance, and only blames himself for his losses. He was clearly stressed, most likely tilted the 2nd game, because of how he lost to a 4 gate, a build where people who aren't as good as you can beat you. This was healthy for him, as I believe he needed to let some steam out. You can't really complain about imbalance as a protoss, specially when MC is out there winning everything. The fact that he whined period after cursing out people in threads discussing ZvP imbalance (MC vs Idra), makes me lose pretty much all respect. If this SOTG turns into some emofest again because of Tyler, I can't see myself going out of my way to listen to it anymore. To add, I don't think MC has actually lost a Best of X PvP, so whining about the matchup/maps is retarded. In PVP, the better player should ALWAYS win in a Best of X series. Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:23 Kisra wrote:On April 18 2011 11:02 ImHuko wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Replace Tyler with Idra this SOTG! With his slump and his past SOTG, I am pretty sure he is going to be just as boring, and we need a Zerg anyways for all the huge TSL matches! Sadly I think I could take Incontrol more seriously arguing with Idra (if it happens) than Tyler at the moment
Really? This is really, really rude >_< Even if Tyler is in a 'slump' - he's still one of the smartest and well presented players in SC2. He still knows the game extremely well, and, ontop of that, can speak his mind in a well reasoned manner. He's funny and partners up extremely well with iNcontroL. It's a shock to see something like this. He's one of the oldest hands in the business and is known for his methodical approach - sure, IdrA has a similar style, but IdrA is likely better in small doses. I know Tyler doesn't need white-knighting, and I know JP isn't going to go "Hey some guy on a forum said to get rid of Tyler, so off he goes!" - but the fact that someone posts something like this is just... so rude. The fact that you felt the need to put it in a spoiler just means you know its impolite. If anything the community should be rallying around Tyler, not trying to build a funeral pyre. I put it in spoilers because it was a spoiler of something that just happened. Like I said in the next post, I don't know this threads standard on spoiling results. I am not asking to GET RID, as I said as well. Listen to last show and ask yourself if you think the emo-ness of Tyler brought down the show? JP asks him a question and Tyler jumps down the poor guys throat. If Tyler is going to be emo like last week cause of him still losing every big match, then I would rather have Idra. (Other people aren't using spoilers, so I just won't use em anymore)
Someone is riding high on his bronze high horse.
The arrival of the people like you was obviously inevitable, but stop plaguing such a good community with senseless trash like this.
I played competitively in Quake, Call of Duty, and Counter Strike and performed pretty damn well in all of them while maintaining a C ish level in ICCUP. (In Broodwar, you know a difficult game). Typically the community of Starcraft has always been real nice and good mannered but people like you just destroy its good name. Stop posting and telling somebody that has been here 4 times as long as you and done more in this game than you ever will what they should do on a COMMUNITY SHOW.
/2 cents
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On April 18 2011 12:03 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:56 Zzoram wrote:
Hopefully Day9 plays Zerg after this thesis defense so there can be a Zerg voice on the show. PainUser should also become a regular for the Terran voice. Oh god no, PainUser is great on the show but a Banshee vs DT discussion every single week would be way too much.
Well they'll be fine if JP doesn't enable the discussion. I felt like last time they were on JP trolled them by bringing up the subject.
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On April 18 2011 14:31 Hyst3ria wrote:
Someone is riding high on his bronze high horse.
The arrival of the people like you was obviously inevitable, but stop plaguing such a good community with senseless trash like this.
I played competitively in Quake, Call of Duty, and Counter Strike and performed pretty damn well in all of them while maintaining a C ish level in ICCUP. (In Broodwar, you know a difficult game). Typically the community of Starcraft has always been real nice and good mannered but people like you just destroy its good name. Stop posting and telling somebody that has been here 4 times as long as you and done more in this game than you ever will what they should do on a COMMUNITY SHOW.
/2 cents
This ^^
The way people reply to Tyler's posts in this thread is especially painful to watch. I mean if you're going to disagree with him for whatever reason, you may as well take the time to formulate your argument and have your post not begin with "lol" or contain only half-coherent rambling in a condescending tone.
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On April 18 2011 12:39 Axel.Bowex wrote:
@anonmice if you read about two pages bacl, you'll see why.
I just find it stupid how Tyler helps the community, and all everyone does is trash him....
No idea what is going on with the Zerg community but it is going to shit lately.
You would think they would be happy to hear what Mondragon said in his post TSL conversion with Kennigit, but I guess the only things some people want to be helped by are balance patches.
The hate towards Tyler is absolutely mind boggling, but it is the same few people over and over. I hope this doesn't get to him :/
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On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject.
Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it.
It's bad for the game and it's bad for the community, and the only reason people do it is because they want to latch on. In reality the game is very balanced, and if you make a quick look at how brood war panned out, we're as close as we can be right now, considering how new the game is.
People for some reason think that all races funcion in the exact same way, and try a turtle style as Zerg, which hasn't really ever been intended to work.
See roaches arn't supposed to beat stalkers and collosi, because they're basically free in comparison, and cheap units usually function worse than expensive units when you clump them up. Use your F*cking brain.
Everyone and their mother was complaining about terran early after beta, because they were pretty silly. The game's been out for a while now, but the complaints about protoss started without any change in the game whatsoever in the protoss favour, and has gone on ever since.
The zerg race is truely a hive mind.
If the game actually is imbalanced, I doubt shitting on tyler for being intelligent will help.
Write angry letters to blizzard if you have to, and leave it at that.
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On April 18 2011 14:27 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 14:15 flowSthead wrote:
This is from a few pages back but I wanted to point out that in the TSL round of 32 Zergs lost 3 matches to Protoss and 3 matches to Terrans. In the round of 16 there were 2 Zerg losses to Protoss and 1 Zerg loss to Terran.
Even if Zergs are underpowered, which I am not admitting they are but I am admitting there is a possibility, it is not necessarily to Protoss. Protoss is just the most dramatic because the "Death Ball" makes it look so dramatic. Judging by TSL, which people are bringing up because of the Cruncher game, they are doing equally poorly against Terran as well. Yet for some reason, no one cries TvZ to be broken. I wonder why that is? Following up on this, I will take a look at NASL matches, ignoring mirror matchups. PvZ - 5 matches, 3 Zerg wins 2 Protoss wins TvZ - 6 matches, 3 Zerg wins 3 Terran wins PvT - 4 Matches, 3 Terran wins 1 Protoss wins 6 Zerg wins, 6 Terran wins, 3 Protoss wins. Zergs are doing poorly in TSL, not so poorly in NASL. Suprise, suprise. One tournament really doesn't tell you anything.
can't compare TSL and NASL
they are entirely different types of leagues
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Last show was quite the rollercoaster for me, awesome start, worst middle section of any SotG yet (almost made me stop watching, seriously ...) and great ending with all the BW nostalgia.
While sometimes the fallback to SC:BW seems like a far stretch, this time it was perfect, keep it up and don't listen to the haters / whiners!
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Okay, I'm a zerg player and I think theres things that could be looked into with the way the game works, but I don't think its nearly enough to pick up and change something yet. People need to try new things. If you have a problem I suggest you write a strongly worded letter to blizzard.
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On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it. It's bad for the game and it's bad for the community, and the only reason people do it is because they want to latch on. In reality the game is very balanced, and if you make a quick look at how brood war panned out, we're as close as we can be right now, considering how new the game is. People for some reason think that all races funcion in the exact same way, and try a turtle style as Zerg, which hasn't really ever been intended to work. See roaches arn't supposed to beat stalkers and collosi, because they're basically free in comparison, and cheap units usually function worse than expensive units when you clump them up. Use your F*cking brain. Everyone and their mother was complaining about terran early after beta, because they were pretty silly. The game's been out for a while now, but the complaints about protoss started without any change in the game whatsoever in the protoss favour, and has gone on ever since. The zerg race is truely a hive mind. If the game actually is imbalanced, I doubt shitting on tyler for being intelligent will help. Write angry letters to blizzard if you have to, and leave it at that.
To be fair, Protoss did (and being a member of Protoss, I took part of this, although not on TL) balance whine quite a bit just after the roach range got buffed. The reasoning was that PvZ had seemed pretty balanced before, but suddenly became really hard for Protoss to win without resorting to 4-gate. I remember one specific thread about how badly designed the Stalker was, and how it definitely needed to gain at least +1(+1) per weapons upgrade, if not a bunch more health and Marauder-like damage. My quote is even based off of that thread, and how Dragoons were compared with Stalkers. The thing is, Protoss didn't get a buff to compensate for this whine - we got better with forcefields, and suddenly "woe is Protoss" no longer applied.
Edit: I found a thread that's like this, although not the exact one I remember: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169929
End Edit.
On topic - I like listening to State of the Game because the Pillars really don't take themselves that seriously. Even when they have guests, like Painuser and IdrA, no one seems to take themselves (that is definitely not the correct grammar) too seriously. I actually enjoyed the off-topic rant about DTs vs Banshees with Painuser, just because neither side really cared about persuading the other of their point - I believe Painuser even said at one point "yeah, but thats a lot of work" when discussing defending it.
Not everything Starcraft has to be 100% serious and about balance - this seems to fulfill the role of "fun Starcraft discussion" quite nicely.
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On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it.
pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff.
zerg is broken.
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Please try to watch more tournament VODs so you can commentate Tyler  I feel bad for JP (and the show) when he tries to go over a recent tournament and only one person is able to give their opinion because no one else watched the games.
Good job JP and friends keep it up!
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EPT
