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On April 18 2011 16:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it.  lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it. pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff. zerg is broken.
Happy 11k posts?
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Imagine going into the break room at work. Two random colleagues argue and it is something along the lines of one is a devout Christian and the other atheist and the argument is about "intelligent design" vs. evolution. They are arguing about something that does not have any practical use in anyone's life. You then get yourself a cup of coffee and get out of the room because you cannot sit there without getting a headache.
This thread sometimes feels just like that, but these last few days there are pages upon pages where I cannot find an interesting post. The interesting post would be the coffee in the previous paragraph, so I leave the break room sad and without coffee, because the pricks did not take care of the empty coffee machine.
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On April 18 2011 16:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it. pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff. zerg is broken.
Couldn't you agree this is much like how BW went over the last few years in terms of race win percentages? I didn't play BW for very long, but I still experienced the time of the toss dragons, and the large influx of zerg wins when Jaedong exhibited a new build in ZvP(I may be wrong on this one).
I see other zerg players experimenting with vastly different play styles, while yours and a few others has seemed to stagnate to the point of your play being very predictable, uninspired, and behind the times. Your mechanics, at least in my opinion, are far greater than any foreigner possesses at the moment, yet you allow your emotions to control your game.
Protoss is most likely a little too strong at the moment in PvZ, but that still should not prevent you from putting 100% of your abilities into finding ways to win for at least the time being. There are several styles that are showing promise, particularly the styles of Spanishiwa and Sheth, that can be utilized or at least be considered.
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On April 18 2011 16:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it. pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff. zerg is broken.
Fundamentally broken just due to the way Blizzard designed it? or broken in the sense that a few stat tweaks here and there could actually make the race both competitive and have enough meta-game leeway to stay competitive?
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"I don't understand why NA/EU zergs think they have a special right to complain ever since release about balance."
i dont understand how people can think a specific group of people from a huge sample is prone to whining/QQing/(name however you like to) for no apparent reason, beside their alleigance to one race, and being the same to everyone else in every other perspective.
In the beta terrans were whining so much even though they were pretty damn strong Blizzard buffed them so hard towards the end it won 80% of everything in the first months, and it was a rare sight when a semifinal was not a TvT.
And on a related note, other races's competitors wont ever aknowledge imbalance (aside from some really cool/popular guys). For example there was that huge hysteria about mech when it was basikly unbeatable, tanks doing 60 demage to all types, auto-reapiring scvs having ~0 atack priority, tiny little maps where tanks almost hit you from the Ts natural etc...
Then a thread about pros's opinon were made, and most of the terrans agreed that it is perfectly balanced.
I know there's no point to this discussion, so i really don't want to argue about it, bottom line is, dont categorize a large group of people as whiners for no apparant reason, because that's flat out impossible to happen with a sample this large.
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On April 18 2011 16:12 Carthac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 16:01 IdrA wrote:On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments!
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it. pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff. zerg is broken. Couldn't you agree this is much like how BW went over the last few years in terms of race win percentages? I didn't play BW for very long, but I still experienced the time of the toss dragons, and the large influx of zerg wins when Jaedong exhibited a new build in ZvP(I may be wrong on this one). I see other zerg players experimenting with vastly different play styles, while yours and a few others has seemed to stagnate to the point of your play being very predictable, uninspired, and behind the times. Your mechanics, at least in my opinion, are far greater than any foreigner possesses at the moment, yet you allow your emotions to control your game. Protoss is most likely a little too strong at the moment in PvZ, but that still should not prevent you from putting 100% of your abilities into finding ways to win for at least the time being. There are several styles that are showing promise, particularly the styles of Spanishiwa and Sheth, that can be utilized or at least be considered.
There's a lot of inconsistencies in this post. For one thing, you concede in the end that there might be some difficulty for zerg in ZvP but that people who are attempting a livelihood at this game should just put on a happy face and give it their all as if this is some little league game. At the highest level of skill play, the most minute of advantages will be a huge deciding factor.
As for new play styles, as much as I'm a fan of Spanishiwa's unique play, he is not attempting that in high caliber tourneys like TSL/MLG where you can't just decide to play creative where one loss results in taking a huge hit in both time\money invested compared to -14 pts on the ladder.
Further, I really don't want to guess how many hours pro-gamers put into looking for new styles. To assume top level zerg players are not already putting in an insane amount of time looking at new builds/strats is just flat out insulting.
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Is this the SOTG thread or the balance discussion thread? I can't tell the difference anymore.
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On April 18 2011 16:35 redux46 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 16:12 Carthac wrote:On April 18 2011 16:01 IdrA wrote:On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?"
so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it. pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff. zerg is broken. Couldn't you agree this is much like how BW went over the last few years in terms of race win percentages? I didn't play BW for very long, but I still experienced the time of the toss dragons, and the large influx of zerg wins when Jaedong exhibited a new build in ZvP(I may be wrong on this one). I see other zerg players experimenting with vastly different play styles, while yours and a few others has seemed to stagnate to the point of your play being very predictable, uninspired, and behind the times. Your mechanics, at least in my opinion, are far greater than any foreigner possesses at the moment, yet you allow your emotions to control your game. Protoss is most likely a little too strong at the moment in PvZ, but that still should not prevent you from putting 100% of your abilities into finding ways to win for at least the time being. There are several styles that are showing promise, particularly the styles of Spanishiwa and Sheth, that can be utilized or at least be considered. There's a lot of inconsistencies in this post. For one thing, you concede in the end that there might be some difficulty for zerg in ZvP but that people who are attempting a livelihood at this game should just put on a happy face and give it their all as if this is some little league game. At the highest level of skill play, the most minute of advantages will be a huge deciding factor. As for new play styles, as much as I'm a fan of Spanishiwa's unique play, he is not attempting that in high caliber tourneys like TSL/MLG where you can't just decide to play creative where one loss results in taking a huge hit in both time\money invested compared to -14 pts on the ladder. Further, I really don't want to guess how many hours pro-gamers put into looking for new styles. To assume top level zerg players are not already putting in an insane amount of time looking at new builds/strats is just flat out insulting.
Don't you think though that it's insulting to the Protoss and Terran players who are actually winning games to tell them it's only so because they're playing Protoss and Terran? Every single ZvP I have seen in the recent past has someone saying "Well, the Z obviously played better, but the P won because his race is imbalanced."
This is fundamentally why balance discussion is an issue - no matter which side you are on, you end up insulting someone, which is never a good way to begin a discussion.
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I can't get the website open. Anyone else having this problem?
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On April 18 2011 16:41 Bleak wrote:
I can't get the website open. Anyone else having this problem?
It is working just fine for me, so it must be a problem on your end. Try clearing your catche/cookies or something.
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That's a very tasteful picture of Artosis haha
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On April 18 2011 16:39 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 16:35 redux46 wrote:On April 18 2011 16:12 Carthac wrote:On April 18 2011 16:01 IdrA wrote:On April 18 2011 15:27 Euronyme wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:
[quote]
In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Dude that was like right after the beta. Also the major whining hadn't hit yet. Basically every progamer apart from Idra is trying to reduce the amount of spoiled children on TL who cries for hours about their race (read zerg) being underpowered against unit X just because it's popular and Idra does it. pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff. zerg is broken. Couldn't you agree this is much like how BW went over the last few years in terms of race win percentages? I didn't play BW for very long, but I still experienced the time of the toss dragons, and the large influx of zerg wins when Jaedong exhibited a new build in ZvP(I may be wrong on this one). I see other zerg players experimenting with vastly different play styles, while yours and a few others has seemed to stagnate to the point of your play being very predictable, uninspired, and behind the times. Your mechanics, at least in my opinion, are far greater than any foreigner possesses at the moment, yet you allow your emotions to control your game. Protoss is most likely a little too strong at the moment in PvZ, but that still should not prevent you from putting 100% of your abilities into finding ways to win for at least the time being. There are several styles that are showing promise, particularly the styles of Spanishiwa and Sheth, that can be utilized or at least be considered. There's a lot of inconsistencies in this post. For one thing, you concede in the end that there might be some difficulty for zerg in ZvP but that people who are attempting a livelihood at this game should just put on a happy face and give it their all as if this is some little league game. At the highest level of skill play, the most minute of advantages will be a huge deciding factor. As for new play styles, as much as I'm a fan of Spanishiwa's unique play, he is not attempting that in high caliber tourneys like TSL/MLG where you can't just decide to play creative where one loss results in taking a huge hit in both time\money invested compared to -14 pts on the ladder. Further, I really don't want to guess how many hours pro-gamers put into looking for new styles. To assume top level zerg players are not already putting in an insane amount of time looking at new builds/strats is just flat out insulting. Don't you think though that it's insulting to the Protoss and Terran players who are actually winning games to tell them it's only so because they're playing Protoss and Terran? Every single ZvP I have seen in the recent past has someone saying "Well, the Z obviously played better, but the P won because his race is imbalanced." This is fundamentally why balance discussion is an issue - no matter which side you are on, you end up insulting someone, which is never a good way to begin a discussion.
Fans complaining vs. actual players are two different categories in my opinion. You can dismiss a good chunk of fan whining since each race has ppl who post a lot of that. To say after every pvz loss the zerg should've won is definitely insulting to the protoss player.
However, I do think when it comes to the views of pro gamers that it's beyond a coincidence that zerg players in north america, europe, and asia voice far more complaints than their terran/protoss counterparts.
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How about switching to Protoss Idra? HotS still wasn't announced and if Zerg is so broken there is no way it gets better before the expansion.
There is still more chance of success if you play another race than if you play a broken race.
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He's addressed those race switching comments before. He enjoys playing Zerg more, doesn't want to take the time to relearn another race at the highest levels, and thinks the game will be balanced eventually and doesn't want to be playing another race when that happens.
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So he thinks the game will be balanced in time while he thinks Zerg is fundamentally broken?
:O
€: And after his comments for like 2 months now i don't think he enjoys playing Zerg.
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I wish there was a way Idra could prove definitely that Zerg was broken or not, just so we could stop arguing about it.
Like, if Idra switched to Toss for a week and beat Sen, Dimaga and Sheth, than everyone would probably be like, "Yup. Guess Greg was right. Shit's broken."
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EPT![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2542/3959032918_f2722806dd.jpg)
