|
On April 18 2011 11:02 ImHuko wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Replace Tyler with Idra this SOTG! With his slump and his past SOTG, I am pretty sure he is going to be just as boring, and we need a Zerg anyways for all the huge TSL matches! Sadly I think I could take Incontrol more seriously arguing with Idra (if it happens) than Tyler at the moment
Really? This is really, really rude >_<
Even if Tyler is in a 'slump' - he's still one of the smartest and well presented players in SC2. He still knows the game extremely well, and, ontop of that, can speak his mind in a well reasoned manner. He's funny and partners up extremely well with iNcontroL.
It's a shock to see something like this. He's one of the oldest hands in the business and is known for his methodical approach - sure, IdrA has a similar style, but IdrA is likely better in small doses. I know Tyler doesn't need white-knighting, and I know JP isn't going to go "Hey some guy on a forum said to get rid of Tyler, so off he goes!" - but the fact that someone posts something like this is just... so rude.
The fact that you felt the need to put it in a spoiler just means you know its impolite. If anything the community should be rallying around Tyler, not trying to build a funeral pyre.
|
On April 18 2011 11:05 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol no. i'm someone who was in Ensidia/Paragon in WoW, Blizzard devs don't give a fuck what pros think - mainly because their judgements are clouded by money, prizes etc. Blizzard devs honestly don't care anything about private opinion and ultimately, 'cause it's a business, they'll do w/e the fuck they want to secure more money. people need to stop thinking because pros are that - professional - their opinion is actually cared for, by blizzard, in short it's not... blizzard will care more for 98% of bronze > master league players than the top 200 na/eu/kr etc just coz it's more money to care for 98% of idiots. for example if someone whined that ramps were too small for PVP and it caused FFs to completely shut down attacks, and high vision via warp ins despite FFs then perhaps blizzard would make all ramps larger because of that one match up, because on pro whined? no they're not gonna do that lol, they're gonna leave it the way it is because it's fine. (read: you!) <3 you
I'm someone from a top guild in WoW as well (US top 10, not as high as you obviously). I can 100% let you know that Blizzard did not care about WoW "balance" opinions from players, just bug fixing. They had their own idea of how they wanted the game to play out for obvious reasons.
But they regularly contact pros of SC2 for balance and ideas. It doesn't mean they take all or any of their ideas, but they certainly listen. Comparing WoW with SC2 is pretty irresponsible. They know how WoW plays out for the most part. On the other hand, SC2 players are going to be playing on a much higher level than any of the Blizzard employees or balance team.
|
On April 18 2011 11:15 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:12 Let it Raine wrote:On April 18 2011 11:05 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol no. i'm someone who was in Ensidia/Paragon in WoW, Blizzard devs don't give a fuck what pros think - mainly because their judgements are clouded by money, prizes etc. Blizzard devs honestly don't care anything about private opinion and ultimately, 'cause it's a business, they'll do w/e the fuck they want to secure more money. people need to stop thinking because pros are that - professional - their opinion is actually cared for, by blizzard, in short it's not... blizzard will care more for 98% of bronze > master league players than the top 200 na/eu/kr etc just coz it's more money to care for 98% of idiots. for example if someone whined that ramps were too small for PVP and it caused FFs to completely shut down attacks, and high vision via warp ins despite FFs then perhaps blizzard would make all ramps larger because of that one match up, because on pro whined? no they're not gonna do that lol, they're gonna leave it the way it is because it's fine. <3 you this is sc2, not WoW. it's common knowledge at this point that blizzard listens to, and cares about the opinions of pro players. Yes their balance team consists of one person  aka Davkid Kim. If they cared about the balance so much they would have hired pros.
The people that design WoW did not design Starcraft 2. You think David Kim had a decision in the balance of wow?
You do realize blizzards teams are huge. The diablo team is different than the Sc2 team and the WoW team. Its not like many if any pro players have open lines to Blizzard its more like they MIGHT take their concerns into consideration as opposed to dude in bronze. You should go watch the last blizzcon where they basically told you how they go about balance. (The starcraft 2 team) how the WoW team balances is on them.
|
Wow so much drama's happened over the weekend. I anticipate an awesome SOTG. Please make it longer than an hour and a half this time JP (-_-)
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 11:24 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:15 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:12 Let it Raine wrote:On April 18 2011 11:05 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol no. i'm someone who was in Ensidia/Paragon in WoW, Blizzard devs don't give a fuck what pros think - mainly because their judgements are clouded by money, prizes etc. Blizzard devs honestly don't care anything about private opinion and ultimately, 'cause it's a business, they'll do w/e the fuck they want to secure more money. people need to stop thinking because pros are that - professional - their opinion is actually cared for, by blizzard, in short it's not... blizzard will care more for 98% of bronze > master league players than the top 200 na/eu/kr etc just coz it's more money to care for 98% of idiots. for example if someone whined that ramps were too small for PVP and it caused FFs to completely shut down attacks, and high vision via warp ins despite FFs then perhaps blizzard would make all ramps larger because of that one match up, because on pro whined? no they're not gonna do that lol, they're gonna leave it the way it is because it's fine. <3 you this is sc2, not WoW. it's common knowledge at this point that blizzard listens to, and cares about the opinions of pro players. Yes their balance team consists of one person aka Davkid Kim. If they cared about the balance so much they would have hired pros. The people that design WoW did not design Starcraft 2. You think David Kim had a decision in the balance of wow? You do realize blizzards teams are huge. The diablo team is different than the Sc2 team and the WoW team. Its not like many if any pro players have open lines to Blizzard its more like they MIGHT take their concerns into consideration as opposed to dude in bronze. You should go watch the last blizzcon where they basically told you how they go about balance. (The starcraft 2 team) how the WoW team balances is on them.
Dude I was talking about sc2 balance team ... (sorry for confusion)
No shit they have different departments, teams for different games !!!
|
On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol
You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that
|
On April 18 2011 11:15 Axel.Bowex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Dude, think about how stressful it must be to lose so many times when you clearly deserve to win at least something. Tyler has never publically complained about imbalance once (besides NASL). He never blames it on imbalance, and only blames himself for his losses. He was clearly stressed, most likely tilted the 2nd game, because of how he lost to a 4 gate, a build where people who aren't as good as you can beat you. This was healthy for him, as I believe he needed to let some steam out.
You can't really complain about imbalance as a protoss, specially when MC is out there winning everything. The fact that he whined period after cursing out people in threads discussing ZvP imbalance (MC vs Idra), makes me lose pretty much all respect. If this SOTG turns into some emofest again because of Tyler, I can't see myself going out of my way to listen to it anymore.
To add, I don't think MC has actually lost a Best of X PvP, so whining about the matchup/maps is retarded. In PVP, the better player should ALWAYS win in a Best of X series.
On April 18 2011 11:23 Kisra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:02 ImHuko wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Replace Tyler with Idra this SOTG! With his slump and his past SOTG, I am pretty sure he is going to be just as boring, and we need a Zerg anyways for all the huge TSL matches! Sadly I think I could take Incontrol more seriously arguing with Idra (if it happens) than Tyler at the moment
Really? This is really, really rude >_< Even if Tyler is in a 'slump' - he's still one of the smartest and well presented players in SC2. He still knows the game extremely well, and, ontop of that, can speak his mind in a well reasoned manner. He's funny and partners up extremely well with iNcontroL. It's a shock to see something like this. He's one of the oldest hands in the business and is known for his methodical approach - sure, IdrA has a similar style, but IdrA is likely better in small doses. I know Tyler doesn't need white-knighting, and I know JP isn't going to go "Hey some guy on a forum said to get rid of Tyler, so off he goes!" - but the fact that someone posts something like this is just... so rude. The fact that you felt the need to put it in a spoiler just means you know its impolite. If anything the community should be rallying around Tyler, not trying to build a funeral pyre.
I put it in spoilers because it was a spoiler of something that just happened. Like I said in the next post, I don't know this threads standard on spoiling results. I am not asking to GET RID, as I said as well. Listen to last show and ask yourself if you think the emo-ness of Tyler brought down the show? JP asks him a question and Tyler jumps down the poor guys throat. If Tyler is going to be emo like last week cause of him still losing every big match, then I would rather have Idra. (Other people aren't using spoilers, so I just won't use em anymore)
|
On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!!
Re-read what you're quoting.
A. He is a pro, obviously. His opinion does matter to Blizzard.
B. "if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it." I missed where he said he hates discussing balance online.
He's said in recent SotGs that people need to develop the game more (Brood War style) but ramp forcefields are pretty devastating in any matchup.
|
On April 18 2011 11:27 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that
no but point is that atm there are many many ppl calling protoss op. i play protoss and idc if my race gets nerfed, i just like watching MC (and tasteless, man i'd get him ravage me lol) but regardless the point is that becoz idra can make money from SC2: he wants it to be balanced, likewise if Zerg was op idra would defend it because zerg being op increases his chance to make money from sc2.
greed is powerful lol
|
On April 18 2011 11:31 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:27 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that no but point is that atm there are many many ppl calling protoss op. i play protoss and idc if my race gets nerfed, i just like watching MC (and tasteless, man i'd get him ravage me lol) but regardless the point is that becoz idra can make money from SC2: he wants it to be balanced, likewise if Zerg was op idra would defend it because zerg being op increases his chance to make money from sc2. greed is powerful lol
Except Idra has done the exact opposite in the past on multiple occasions.
oops?
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 11:28 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Re-read what you're quoting. A. He is a pro, obviously. His opinion does matter to Blizzard. B. "if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it." I missed where he said he hates discussing balance online. He's said in recent SotGs that people need to develop the game more (Brood War style) but ramp forcefields are pretty devastating in any matchup.
There !
On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters
|
He got angry because he practiced on one version of the map and then the one that was played had different ramps. Apparently players weren't informed. He wasn't whining about "pvp imbalance."
|
On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlShould be a mandatory read. "Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing. A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching. I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening. There are only winners and losers. "Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi "Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine. or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject.
Because they are robots with out emotions? They are Data from Star Trek incapable of emotions or mistakes? I bet in hindsight they probably feel they jumped to conclusions.
Are they still friends? Did they completely and totally berate idra and cast him out as a black sheep? No. They where wrong so what. Because you look up to them as Hero's doesnt mean they can make mistakes. Or you took it personal how they where talking to idra who was on the show in subsequent episodes? Idra still comes on they are all still friends right. So what they where wrong. Quoting transcripts doesn't mean anything. Tyler has said many times to protoss players that they just need to play better also. You should grab some of those quotes from back
then too.
The difference between Tyler talking imbalance and what alot of other people do. Is there is no grandstanding. Its not like the great debaters where one side must win the arguement. Its a pretty interesting discussion without name calling and some of the stuff you see posted around here sometimes. Where you can't never be wrong but can't never be right.
|
On April 18 2011 11:31 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:27 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that no but point is that atm there are many many ppl calling protoss op. i play protoss and idc if my race gets nerfed, i just like watching MC (and tasteless, man i'd get him ravage me lol) but regardless the point is that becoz idra can make money from SC2: he wants it to be balanced, likewise if Zerg was op idra would defend it because zerg being op increases his chance to make money from sc2. greed is powerful lol
This has been pointed out many times, IdrA has not been afraid to call out perceived imbalances for zerg's as well. In the early days he was one of the bigger advocates for 1 supply roaches being imbalanced and recently with the infestor change he thought (doesn't think the same anymore) that they were going to be too strong against P. Stop talking out of your ass.
|
On April 18 2011 11:35 ExquisiteRed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:31 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:27 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments!
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that no but point is that atm there are many many ppl calling protoss op. i play protoss and idc if my race gets nerfed, i just like watching MC (and tasteless, man i'd get him ravage me lol) but regardless the point is that becoz idra can make money from SC2: he wants it to be balanced, likewise if Zerg was op idra would defend it because zerg being op increases his chance to make money from sc2. greed is powerful lol This has been pointed out many times, IdrA has not been afraid to call out perceived imbalances for zerg's as well. In the early days he was one of the bigger advocates for 1 supply roaches being imbalanced and recently with the infestor change he thought (doesn't think the same anymore) that they were going to be too strong against P. Stop talking out of your ass.
lol u can't defend 1 supply roaches not being op ... however protoss is weird coz it's only op against zerg, terran deals with it fine and i'm not sure why - on paper terran should die to the deathball with more ease coz it cannot be delayed (fungals, broods, ling surrounds etc) however im pretty sure in this scenario EVERY protoss player knows their race is a lot easier to be efficient with that a zerg, but they defend it - whyy? answer is pretty obvious tbh.
|
On April 18 2011 11:35 ExquisiteRed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:31 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:27 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments!
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that no but point is that atm there are many many ppl calling protoss op. i play protoss and idc if my race gets nerfed, i just like watching MC (and tasteless, man i'd get him ravage me lol) but regardless the point is that becoz idra can make money from SC2: he wants it to be balanced, likewise if Zerg was op idra would defend it because zerg being op increases his chance to make money from sc2. greed is powerful lol This has been pointed out many times, IdrA has not been afraid to call out perceived imbalances for zerg's as well. In the early days he was one of the bigger advocates for 1 supply roaches being imbalanced and recently with the infestor change he thought (doesn't think the same anymore) that they were going to be too strong against P. Stop talking out of your ass.
Idra is the type of player who wants to win from skill, not by imbalance. I feel that is also one of the reasons he never switched to terran/protoss, he just wouldn't feel right winning games when someone like Cruncher is winning as well. I really just can't see Idra wanting to win games he doesn't think he deserves.
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 11:34 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:22 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.
or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments! ??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?" so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. There you have it. Revisit some of the older SoTG cast before the Terran nerfs, both incontrol and tyler were very vocal on the subject. Because they are robots with out emotions? They are Data from Star Trek incapable of emotions or mistakes? I bet in hindsight they probably feel they jumped to conclusions. Are they still friends? Did they completely and totally berate idra and cast him out as a black sheep? No. They where wrong so what. Because you look up to them as Hero's doesnt mean they can make mistakes. Or you took it personal how they where talking to idra who was on the show in subsequent episodes? Idra still comes on they are all still friends right. So what they where wrong. Quoting transcripts doesn't mean anything. Tyler has said many times to protoss players that they just need to play better also. You should grab some of those quotes from back then too.
What they hell are you even talking about, jeez dramatize much?
You asked where Tyler ever complained about the game / balanced and i copy-pasted that quote.
My point was this Tyler is allowed to complain about the the stage of the game, but when zergs and pro-zergs do it then they are wrong? Dobule-standard much?
|
On April 18 2011 11:37 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:35 ExquisiteRed wrote:On April 18 2011 11:31 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:27 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?"
so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that no but point is that atm there are many many ppl calling protoss op. i play protoss and idc if my race gets nerfed, i just like watching MC (and tasteless, man i'd get him ravage me lol) but regardless the point is that becoz idra can make money from SC2: he wants it to be balanced, likewise if Zerg was op idra would defend it because zerg being op increases his chance to make money from sc2. greed is powerful lol This has been pointed out many times, IdrA has not been afraid to call out perceived imbalances for zerg's as well. In the early days he was one of the bigger advocates for 1 supply roaches being imbalanced and recently with the infestor change he thought (doesn't think the same anymore) that they were going to be too strong against P. Stop talking out of your ass. lol u can't defend 1 supply roaches not being op ... however protoss is weird coz it's only op against zerg, terran deals with it fine and i'm not sure why - on paper terran should die to the deathball with more ease coz it cannot be delayed (fungals, broods, ling surrounds etc) however im pretty sure in this scenario EVERY protoss player knows their race is a lot easier to be efficient with that a zerg, but they defend it - whyy? answer is pretty obvious tbh.
Whatever you are arguing is based on the assumption that IdrA is just like any other pro/protoss player, which he clearly isn't. As Huko alluded to I think IdrA would be very uncomfotable if people thought his wins were only coming from a race imbalance and not pure skill.
|
On April 18 2011 11:37 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 11:35 ExquisiteRed wrote:On April 18 2011 11:31 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:27 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:22 Cranberries wrote:On April 18 2011 11:19 oZii wrote:On April 18 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 10:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 18 2011 10:47 Badboyrune wrote:On April 18 2011 10:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
[quote]
??? the feedback is the game itself. the player doesn't have anything to add to the games he plays. the only time a player needs to say anything is when blizzard is like "we dont have time to watch your last 50 tvz's. can you summarize what's been going in this situation?"
so actually yeah, fuck feedback via forums and comments. blizzard can see the games. that's all that matters In addition to this I'm fairly sure Blizzard is regularly in touch with progamers to hear their thoughts on balance. So to whine about balance you not only have to assume that blizzard are not reviewing the huge amounts of raw data available to them but also that you understand the game better than the progamers blizzard are in contact with. yep, blizzard contacts pros privately. public comments on balance are 99.9999% unproductive. they are for your personal satisfaction only. if discussing balance online isn't a satisfying experience, then stop doing it. lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!! Uh did he complain about the ramps because he thought they where the old ones or the new ones? Or did he complain cause he thought it was imbalanced? I think it was the first which is why he asked the question why the ramps are so small. Like he was suprised which is why he was asking for a reply. Not because he was screaming imba. Tsk Tsk Tyler hardly if ever screams imbalance that I can remember. Some of you read what you want to read. of c not coz most imbalance threads focus on P as being imbalanced: what professional, who can make money from a game, want their race to get weaker? seriously no person would do that - ppl who're playing the op race/class or w/e want it to stay as op or imbalanced or w/e for as long as possibe... More so when they're making money from it lol You can look at the post above yours to see they didnt always think that no but point is that atm there are many many ppl calling protoss op. i play protoss and idc if my race gets nerfed, i just like watching MC (and tasteless, man i'd get him ravage me lol) but regardless the point is that becoz idra can make money from SC2: he wants it to be balanced, likewise if Zerg was op idra would defend it because zerg being op increases his chance to make money from sc2. greed is powerful lol This has been pointed out many times, IdrA has not been afraid to call out perceived imbalances for zerg's as well. In the early days he was one of the bigger advocates for 1 supply roaches being imbalanced and recently with the infestor change he thought (doesn't think the same anymore) that they were going to be too strong against P. Stop talking out of your ass. lol u can't defend 1 supply roaches not being op ... however protoss is weird coz it's only op against zerg, terran deals with it fine and i'm not sure why - on paper terran should die to the deathball with more ease coz it cannot be delayed (fungals, broods, ling surrounds etc) however im pretty sure in this scenario EVERY protoss player knows their race is a lot easier to be efficient with that a zerg, but they defend it - whyy? answer is pretty obvious tbh.
Where do you keep getting that Protoss is OP against zerg? Obviously there is more to the game than just the "deathball" cause people get upset when they dont see 200/200 supply fights in finals. Remember the roach buff? Many protoss where upset about that. Alot of people switch to zerg just because of that one buff. Remember when hatch first and muta-ling was kicking protoss all over? I do and Im sure other protoss remember too. I don't know where you been at though. Im not saying the matchup is perfect you can't never say that in this game and you will never be able to say any of the matchups are perfect unless you have all the data. You can't call it OP either unless you have all the data either. Not just zergs not winning right now data.
|
HEY GUYS, I like the idea of the show BUT I CAN'T STAND TYLER/DAY[9]/INCONTROL. If you could just switch all of them to zergs and terran then it would be awesome!! TYLER WAS TOO EMO LAST SHOW, PLEASE REPLACE HIM WITH IDRA SO WE CAN HEAR IDRA WHINE LIKE A 10 YEAR OLD.
/sarcasm
Holy shit... if you guys don't like their opinions, then why do you listen to the show? They ARE the show. God damn, this thread is out of control.
Tyler hang in there man! We're still here rooting for ya
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
